THE IMAGINARY COVENANT OF GRACE FOUND NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE

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Not based on the following scripture.

Exo 34:28  So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. 


Deu 5:1  And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them. 
Deu 5:2  The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 
Deu 5:3  The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive. 


Gal 4:24  which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 

.
The covenant was made to the people of Israel. None of these covenants applied or do apply to Gentiles. Therefore, as a Gentile believer, none of the Jewish covenants apply to me, including the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Law. They were written for Jews only. This doesn't mean that I can live any way I like. The principles behind the Ten Commandments are true and show God's standards of holiness, but I am under no obligation to follow them as an external set of laws to be applied to me. As believer in Christ, I did not come through Judaism. I am under a totally new covenant which is not between God and me at all. The new covenant was between the Father and Christ. He keeps the covenant that is between them. Therefore in Christ, I share His side of His covenant through faith. I live according to God's standards through Christ's righteousness which was bestowed on me as a free gift. I do have a responsibility to preserve my testimony to Christ in the world by walking worthy of the calling I have in Christ.
 
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The covenant was made to the people of Israel. None of these covenants applied or do apply to Gentiles. Therefore, as a Gentile believer, none of the Jewish covenants apply to me, including the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Law. They were written for Jews only. This doesn't mean that I can live any way I like. The principles behind the Ten Commandments are true and show God's standards of holiness, but I am under no obligation to follow them as an external set of laws to be applied to me. As believer in Christ, I did not come through Judaism. I am under a totally new covenant which is not between God and me at all. The new covenant was between the Father and Christ. He keeps the covenant that is between them. Therefore in Christ, I share His side of His covenant through faith. I live according to God's standards through Christ's righteousness which was bestowed on me as a free gift. I do have a responsibility to preserve my testimony to Christ in the world by walking worthy of the calling I have in Christ.
Oscar ....this is wrong in many ways.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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The covenants in the Bible are fairly well known and there is no covenant of grace. Plain and simple.

Please show me what covenant is referred to in the BIble as the Covenant of grace? A covenant is no joke, so it should exist.
Because the word covenant is not always used does not mean there is no covenant spoken of.
I can describe a sport to you ,without saying the name of it, and you will know exactly what it is....if I say,a batters box, a pitcher's mound, a home run, a strikeout....you and everyone else knows what is being described.
 
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klutedavid

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Oscar ....this is wrong in many ways.
Hello Iconoclast.

Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Hello Iconoclast.

Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises.
Yes...God had singled out Israel to pass the Covenant promises upon that nation, before the cross.
They alone had scripture also...romans3
Now gentiles as well as Jews are on equal.footing as there is one new man now.:oldthumbsup:
It was always God's design that all who would be saved would be saved by the covenant of Grace. When the decree was made in the Covenant of redemption it was certain to come to pass....jn 6:37-44.....
 
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Yes...God had singled out Israel to pass the Covenant promises upon that nation, before the cross.
They alone had scripture also...romans3
Now gentiles as well as Jews are on equal.footing as there is one new man now.:oldthumbsup:
It was always God's design that all who would be saved would be saved by the covenant of Grace. When the decree was made in the Covenant of redemption it was certain to come to pass....jn 6:37-44.....
I wonder if you are saying that Jews can now receive salvation while still holding to Judaism. I don't think so. Just being a Jew and offering the sacrifices as part of the Jewish religion do not make them equal under Christ to those Gentiles who have accepted Him as Saviour. The Scripture says that there is no longer Jew or Gentile, but all are one under Christ. The only members of the nation of Israel who will be saved are those who come to Christ and accept Him as Saviour. In effect, they stop being Jews and become Christians. There will be many in the nation of Israel who will be rejecting Christ and will not be saved. So, in that sense, Jews and Gentiles are not on an equal footing. Both labels have passed into history in God's view. He only see as righteous are those who have come to Christ, believing that He is the Son of God and has risen from the dead to give them eternal life.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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"Oscarr,
Hello Oscar
[The covenant was made to the people of Israel.]

The Covenant of redemption is made among the members of the trinity.

[None of these covenants applied or do apply to Gentiles. Therefore, as a Gentile believer, none of the Jewish covenants apply to me, including the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Law
. ]
The decalogue belongs to all mankind...all who go into second death will go because they have sinned against it.

[They were written for Jews only
. ]

It seems that way because only Israel was given the law...expanded as in the theocracy.

[This doesn't mean that I can live any way I like. The principles behind the Ten Commandments are true and show God's standards of holiness, but I am under no obligation to follow them as an external set of laws to be applied to me.]

The promise of the New Covenant was the law was to be put in our hearts.

[ As believer in Christ, I did not come through Judaism. I am under a totally new covenant which is not between God and me at all.]
This is very wrong.On one hand you say the law was given to Israel, now you want to say the new Covenant was not given to them , promised in jer.31?

[The new covenant was between the Father and Christ. He keeps the covenant that is between them.]
No...as part of the Covenant of grace it extends God's saving mercy to the elect remnant of Israelites, and believing gentiles, who are grafted into the Olive tree...
Jesus is the True Israel and us in Him.



[ Therefore in Christ, I share His side of His covenant through faith. I live according to God's standards through Christ's righteousness which was bestowed on me as a free gift. I do have a responsibility to preserve my testimony to Christ in the world by walking worthy of the calling I have in Christ.]

Our sanctification is all of grace also.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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I wonder if you are saying that Jews can now receive salvation while still holding to Judaism. I don't think so. Just being a Jew and offering the sacrifices as part of the Jewish religion do not make them equal under Christ to those Gentiles who have accepted Him as Saviour. The Scripture says that there is no longer Jew or Gentile, but all are one under Christ. The only members of the nation of Israel who will be saved are those who come to Christ and accept Him as Saviour. In effect, they stop being Jews and become Christians. There will be many in the nation of Israel who will be rejecting Christ and will not be saved. So, in that sense, Jews and Gentiles are not on an equal footing. Both labels have passed into history in God's view. He only see as righteous are those who have come to Christ, believing that He is the Son of God and has risen from the dead to give them eternal life.

We do not accept anything...God makes us accepted in the beloved....
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
 
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"Covenant of Works" is a term from Reformed theology. It refers to the covenant God had with Adam before the fall, and the supposed legal basis of meriting righteousness through obedience.

It is not a major theme in modern mainline Reformed theology, and never was a part of Lutheran theology.
 
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We do not accept anything...God makes us accepted in the beloved....
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

I have no issue with that. It just appeared in your previous post that you may have held that the Jews who still held to Judiasm were on equal footing with Gentile believers. I see that because you are a Calvinist, you wouldn't believe that at all. By the way, I am a Calvinist as well. I soaked up Calvin's Institutes and believe every word of it. Some of my Arminian Pentecostal friends have looked at me sideways because of my Puritan Calvinist theology but I make no apology for it. I am totally convinced that once a person gives their lives to Jesus they are saved forever. God will never cancel it. He is not an indian giver. We are saved by grace through faith, it is not of ourselves but is a gift of God. Once He has given the gift, He will never take it back. A truly converted person, according to Calvin will never renounce Christ. If a person did, it would mean that he was not truly converted in the first place.

So, having said that, my view of the Old Covenant is that it was given to the Jews, but they failed to keep it. So Jesus came as a sinless Jew and He kept that covenant without fault. This is the truth of the Cross. Jesus was innocent under the law. He kept the covenant for sinful Israel, but suffered death as a criminal. This is why any Jew who accepts Christ is saved under the covenant that Jesus kept for them, and he took their sinfulness upon Himself and give them His righteousness as a free gift. Gentile believers do not come under that covenant, because it was for Jews only. But through the calling and ministry of Paul, Jesus brought the Gentiles into a new covenant that was sealed between Him and the Father through the offering of His blood in the heavenly holy of holies. This is the new and better covenant that is mentioned in Hebrews.

But there are no longer two covenants. The Old Covenant was fulfilled in Christ. He has brought Jew and Gentile in under the New Covenant to the degree that there is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile as far as the foundation of salvation is concerned. In fact the labels "Jew" and "Gentile" no longer exist in the mind of God. He sees all saved people as the bride of Christ. When the New Testament refers to Israel, it is termed "the new Israel", which is an allusion to the bride of Christ. They are one and the same. Jewish believers and Gentile believers are all one in the new Israel aka the bride of Christ.
 
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I have no issue with that. It just appeared in your previous post that you may have held that the Jews who still held to Judiasm were on equal footing with Gentile believers. I see that because you are a Calvinist, you wouldn't believe that at all. By the way, I am a Calvinist as well. I soaked up Calvin's Institutes and believe every word of it. Some of my Arminian Pentecostal friends have looked at me sideways because of my Puritan Calvinist theology but I make no apology for it. I am totally convinced that once a person gives their lives to Jesus they are saved forever. God will never cancel it. He is not an indian giver. We are saved by grace through faith, it is not of ourselves but is a gift of God. Once He has given the gift, He will never take it back. A truly converted person, according to Calvin will never renounce Christ. If a person did, it would mean that he was not truly converted in the first place.

So, having said that, my view of the Old Covenant is that it was given to the Jews, but they failed to keep it. So Jesus came as a sinless Jew and He kept that covenant without fault. This is the truth of the Cross. Jesus was innocent under the law. He kept the covenant for sinful Israel, but suffered death as a criminal. This is why any Jew who accepts Christ is saved under the covenant that Jesus kept for them, and he took their sinfulness upon Himself and give them His righteousness as a free gift. Gentile believers do not come under that covenant, because it was for Jews only. But through the calling and ministry of Paul, Jesus brought the Gentiles into a new covenant that was sealed between Him and the Father through the offering of His blood in the heavenly holy of holies. This is the new and better covenant that is mentioned in Hebrews.

But there are no longer two covenants. The Old Covenant was fulfilled in Christ. He has brought Jew and Gentile in under the New Covenant to the degree that there is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile as far as the foundation of salvation is concerned. In fact the labels "Jew" and "Gentile" no longer exist in the mind of God. He sees all saved people as the bride of Christ. When the New Testament refers to Israel, it is termed "the new Israel", which is an allusion to the bride of Christ. They are one and the same. Jewish believers and Gentile believers are all one in the new Israel aka the bride of Christ.


Hello Oscar,
It looks as if we have substantial agreement here which always works out well.

[I am totally convinced that once a person gives their lives to Jesus they are saved forever. God will never cancel it. ]
This could be just sematical differences, but I see it as the Shepherd seeks and saves us....we do not give anything to Him but rather we receive mercy and grace. I try and be very careful of the wording as to avoid confusion later on:wave: Many people in our day resist these truths and will look to twist the wording, so I try and be careful when posting or speaking.

Salvation is certain because God has sworn by himself;
Hebrews6;
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Remember how God put Abraham to sleep when He passed through the divided animal when he cut the Covenant?

Gen15;
12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

18 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
 
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. I am totally convinced that once a person gives their lives to Jesus they are saved forever. God will never cancel it. He is not an indian giver. We are saved by grace through faith, it is not of ourselves but is a gift of God. Once He has given the gift, He will never take it back. A truly converted person, according to Calvin will never renounce Christ. If a person did, it would mean that he was not truly converted in the first place.

Hey Oscar, I'm looking for some clarification. I fully agree with what you wrote here, I'm just wondering if this precept is exclusive to Calvinism? I'm not sure it is (not that you're necessarily saying it is)

I'm in the process of examining Calvinism and Arminianism and looking for info. God bless
 
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Hey Oscar, I'm looking for some clarification. I fully agree with what you wrote here, I'm just wondering if this precept is exclusive to Calvinism? I'm not sure it is (not that you're necessarily saying it is)

I'm in the process of examining Calvinism and Arminianism and looking for info. God bless
For a good understanding of Calvin's theology, reading his Institutes will enlighten you. It is a bit of mission to read, but it gives a clear account of what he believes. You will find that what is said from the horse's mouth is quite different to what some subsequent Calvinists teach. Not all Calvinists are true to Calvin himself.

To understand Arminianism, John Wesley is the best one for that. I don't where you could find an English translation of the work of Arminius, who was the first to teach the theology.

The main difference between Calvinist and Arminian theology is around whose responsibility it is to get a person saved and keep them saved. Calvin believed that the Holy Spirit is the initiator who enlightens the person concerning the gospel and gives them the saving faith to receive Christ. Then the person must keep praying and waiting on God to receive his assurance of salvation. John Bunyan's Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners is a good account of his eight years of struggle after he embraced Christ to when he received final assurance of his salvation. Once that is achieved, the person can never be lost while he remains faithful to Christ in his belief in Him. As far as sanctification is concerned, it is developmental. We will always sin and fall down, but it is the Holy Spirit who helps us back up to carry on. The extreme Calvinist will not evangelise because he believes that it is the Holy Spirit who has to do that work. This is the problem that Charles Finney had with the Calvinist Presbyterians of his time. They opposed him because he invited people to receive Christ as Saviour. Finney said that his theology was somewhere halfway between Calvinist and Arminian.

Arminian theology makes man the responsible person for coming to an understanding of the gospel and to decide to accept Christ as Saviour. The Wesleyan Methodists were very strong on this, as well as the Nazarene church. George Whitefield was also a Methodist, but he retained Calvinist theology, with the difference that he evangelised wherever he went with great success. He was the "Billy Graham" of his time, especially in the United States during the 18th Century. Arminians believe that it is also man's responsibility to be sanctified and if a person falls into sin, he can lose his salvation. This can produce "bipolar" believers who can be up one minute and then down in the dumps the next depending on how successful he is in living a holy life. Arminians tend to be more concerned about their spiritual condition than Calvinists. Some Arminians, especially the Nazarenes, believe that entire sanctification can be achieved by faith, but I don't know how that works, because the moment the believer succumbs to temptation, he can lose his faith in his entire sanctification. The Calvinists, I think, are more realistic about sanctification. They accept that we are not perfect people and that we can fail. But they believe that Jesus is a complete Saviour who has taken all our sinfulness on the cross with Him and given us total righteousness as a free gift.

Arminianism can lead a person into self-righteousness through trying to be holy in his own strength through fear of losing his salvation if he fails. These are the ones who are in the constant cycle of sinning/repenting/sinning/repenting/sinning/repenting and so on ad infinitum. The Calvinist is more stable in his faith because he rests totally on his dependence on Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit within him to maintain the development of his sanctification. He uses 1 John 1:9 to maintain short accounts with God, but he is never subject to any threat to his salvation no matter how many demonic condemnation bombs are thrown at him.
 
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The main difference between Calvinist and Arminian theology is around whose responsibility it is to get a person saved and keep them saved.

Thank you for your reading suggestions, especially John Wesley. I'm interested to find which of these notably large doctrinal camps best line up with my own personal experience with salvation. Not so that I may reinforce a certain formula onto others when speaking of the faith but to confirm and simply learn for its own sake.

Calvin believed that the Holy Spirit is the initiator who enlightens the person concerning the gospel and gives them the saving faith to receive Christ.

The recollection I have of my faith experience was like this; Spirit made me to understand my true spiritual condition. Yet, I also feel that the opportunity for me to continue on ignoring the Spirit's calling was also present, so I'm not sure how well this feeling gels with Calvinism's Irresistible Grace. Was the Spirit calling me earlier and I hadn't noticed it? Possibly.

If I had rejected at that juncture and continued on in my sinful lifestyle, would Spirit have presented to me other opportunities until I either accepted Christ or died rejecting Him? I believe so, which is probably more of an Arminian position as Calvinism, as I understand it presently, would view that juncture as my appointed time.

Then the person must keep praying and waiting on God to receive his assurance of salvation.

I can relate heavily to this. It was a bumpy road for me and I was quite the bipolar Christian (as you mention below) but my condition is smoothing out and I genuinely feel the assurance. I'm starting to view that period either as one of necessary spiritual grief, or perhaps I was tenderly susceptible to demonic condemnation bombs that attempted to wobble me. I know for certain that the latter are weakening with every passing day and I sure don't miss that turbulence.

I'm so grateful to finally feel confident in approaching His throne of Grace. I'm able to cast off worldly weights and there is a resolve to know nothing else but His Grace. Sanctification is certainly a process, and an exciting, meaningful one at that.

The extreme Calvinist will not evangelise because he believes that it is the Holy Spirit who has to do that work.

I can't entirely agree with this, as the Word calls us to make Him known via the Great Commission and various passages mention working for the Kingdom. If we do shrink back from evangelizing we could very well be missing out on many opportunities for God to work through us, given that we don't see where our scattered seed lands in the hearts of others nor how God would cultivate. So I am squarely in the other camp on this one, although if God will save someone He will do so without human aid if need be.
 
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Thank you Oscarr for allowing me to get some of this off my chest. You're awesome!

Arminians believe that it is also man's responsibility to be sanctified and if a person falls into sin, he can lose his salvation.

Right, this was how I felt as a Bipolar Christian earlier on in my walk. I do agree God is no Indian-giver. There is also biblical precedence that a person can be saved and yet continue to live a life of spiritual impoverishment (although I can't recall where it is at this time) resulting in a failure to build up wealth in heaven. The Arminian alternative boils down to works-based salvation and I'm at the point where I know such a thing cannot exist.

The Calvinists, I think, are more realistic about sanctification. They accept that we are not perfect people and that we can fail. But they believe that Jesus is a complete Saviour who has taken all our sinfulness on the cross with Him and given us total righteousness as a free gift.

Do you find this to be exclusive to Calvinism? Because I think I've encountered the same sentiment within Protestantism and the like.

Arminianism can lead a person into self-righteousness through trying to be holy in his own strength through fear of losing his salvation if he fails.

Yeah, I can definitely see how Arminianism might lead one to a self-centric, works-dependent faith life. On the flip side--

Arminians tend to be more concerned about their spiritual condition than Calvinists.

Greater concern for their condition may illicit deeper self-examination and even prompt study.

The Calvinist is more stable in his faith because he rests totally on his dependence on Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit within him to maintain the development of his sanctification.

As for now, this is where my heart is resting :angel:
 
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