The 'illogicality' of part-predestination

[nobdysfool]

Nobdysfool wrote, "There is every reason to believe it, as it is the Truth regarding God being Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent. Unless you want to try to prove to me from scripture that God is none of those things. Logically, if He is not, then He is not God."
What the above formulation misses is that God can do as He pleases. If he chooses not to know something He can do it. If He chooses to not exercise His power for His purpose He can do it. To argue that God must fit into your viewpoint, or He is not God, betrays a lack of respect for the unfathomable facets of God. God is all knowing and He knows all things, but just what is the context of these statements? Peter says Jesus knows all things, but clearly the all only included the things of Peter's heart. To extrapolate verses like this is unsound in my opinion.

Nobdysfool wrote, " God cannot declare the end if He does not know it. To say that God does not know with certainty every thought, every deed, every action you will do before you do it is to say that He is not Omniscient."

Here again is the logic of man asserting what God can or cannot do. If God wanted to declare the end, without foreseeing the future as if it had already happened, God could do it. To assert otherwise is to say God is not God. God can search our hearts and know our hidden thoughts and attitudes, or at His pleasure and for His purpose, He can choose not to obtain the knowledge and instead test us to find out what our attitude is. Read the story of Issac and Abraham. Your one size fits all God is not the God of the Bible.

I offer no support for what foreknowledge means? 2 Peter 3:17(NASB) translates one of two Greek terms translated elsewhere as foreknew or foreknowledg, as "knowing this beforehand." Literally "before knowledge" means knowledge acquired beforehand.

Nobdysfool, I never said God could not know the future, how would I know something like that, for all things are possible with God.

I reread the following and still think it is truth: What the Bible actually says is the power of the gospel is in the message that is delivered and if another gospel is delivered, folks are not saved, they are led astray. </FONT>

So, you are an Open Theist, aren't you?

 

[Eric_C]

Consider this Eric, God hardens hearts. Now why would he need to intervene in the course of events and alter that course to bring about his desired outcome if total predestination was true?

Course of events and predestination are two ways of saying the same thing. What you've done here is frame your premise in the form of a question. The fact that God has created all of time dissolves the notion of intervention.

Can you intervene in your construction of your own post? Are there two of you? Are there two Gods?

To say that God intervenes in His own creating work is a foolish redundancy.

Eric, yes, God created all things, including our ability to make choices and our opportunity to make choices.

To give the appearance of agreement and then clearly demonstrate that it is not so, as you did in the second part of your post above (which I answered first) is a form of sophistry.

 

[Eric_C]

Eric, if the idea makes sense to you, that God intervenes to make us think he alters the outcome of events, even though he is in deterministic control of every thought and every deed of every person that ever lived or will live, there is nothing more I can say.

Then why did you continue saying more?

Hyper-Calvinism is obviously inconsistent with the picture of reality presented by the bible.

What do you mean by "Hyper-Calvinism"? I've only heard that term a few times in the past and don't know what it means. Does it mean Calvinists that are very active?

That is why Calvinists, such as Frumanchu offer a view that is consistent with the Biblical picture, that God permits stuff to happen and alters it by intervention to bring about His purpose and predestined plan.

Two different perspectives combined into one, or at least an attempt at it. I believe it is called compatible-ism. From the perspective or perception of mankind it appears that he is making choices apart from God. From God's eternal perspective He has created all that exists, predestination. I prefer to keep the two separate. How do you think it was possible for John to see the future? He was caught up to the third heaven, eternity, where he was able to see the end of the work of God's hand, because from that perspective, everything is finished.

Now I differ completely with Frumanchu's idea of the extent of the plan, but he is on the money in my opinion on the overview.

I don't have any problems with Frumanchu's compatiblizing into an overview. But I don't believe he has gone so far as to say that men create their own future with the choices they make as choices that are apart from God's creating work.

One other point concerning the initial post of this thread, which you endorsed, is that we can debate and discuss whether God is implimenting His plan for creation by deterministic control of everything, or as I believe, by limited intervention to bring about limited predestination in accordance with His purpose and plan. But, to argue, as the starter post argues, that God could not impliment limited predestination is silly. God can do whatever He choses to do, and if His plan includes limited predestination to afford the opportunity for conditional election, He can do it. Whether He did or not is a matter for debate.

Evidence and logical arguments for total predestination have been presented, yet you have not refuted them nor have you offered any evidence for limited predestination. All you've done to this point is object emotionally only saying that its possible. Thats not an argument, all things are possible. If that is all that you have, then your argument is "silly".

My favorite way to illustrate the difference between something God is capable of doing and what He actually does, is to say, God could have given me the exactly correct view on this matter, but that does not indicate He did.

"Who can understand [his] errors? cleanse thou me from secret [faults]. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous [sins]; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer." (Psalms 19:12-14)

I await the evidence in support of your view that you're not sure of....

 

[Colossians]

Pamelaopen,

My grief comes because: I am not sure but I think the predestination view is that I was going to be saved at some point in my life no matter what, so I think, &#8220;Why wasn&#8217;t I saved before the mistake so that I wouldn&#8217;t make it."
Have you never read: "He that is forgiven little, loveth little; he that is fogiven much, loveth much"?
Guess why your mistakes were big.


am I predestined to pray or not to pray?
When you are praying, you are predestined to pray; when you are not, you are not.

 

[Colossians]

THOSE EVASIVE ARMINIANS AGAIN!

And we are still waiting for the non-Calvinists to give us the 3 input-streams for their own salvation, as requested in the OP.
Given that they have spent much time telling us other things not relevant, I am sure 5 minutes actually answering the OP will not present too great a problem.

 

[Van]

Eric, I do not see any point in continuing. I have made my case from scripture. My posts have been read and either rejected or agreed to. But when you say I have presented no evidence in light of my many posts, in which someone else could find evidence, it indicates it is pointless to continue.

Nobdysfool, I do not know what an "open theist" is but I do not think I am one. I offered evidence from scripture that God can do what He pleases, and if He pleases to bring about His purpose and predestined plan through limited intervention, He can do it. And this view I have supported with many scriptural references. Foreknowledge as used in the Bible means information gleemed or formulated in the past that is being used in the present. I believe all the verses (four I think) that say in effect God is all knowing, mean in context, God knows (or can know) everything about the person(s) He is dealing with, He can search the heart and know the hidden thoughts and attitudes of the person(s) in the text. I like to think I am a conservative Christian, a non-calvinist/non-arminian believer in Christ who studies the bible and accepts his understanding, as God gives him the light, of the Bible. If I am shown the error of my ways, I will change position in a heart-beat, I know I know very little about the Bible. But I have search and cannot find Calvinism in the text, and I was brought up in a Calvinist church.

God is everywhere, and God is all powerful and God could know everything if God chose to know everything but the picture of reality presented in scripture is that God reacts to the choices of man, so it seems God does not always access information He is capabable of acquiring, because His purpose and plan is to do otherwise.

 

[Pamelaopen]

Colossians,

Thank you for responding but none of this helps me. It makes it worse. I would rather have less for forgiveness for less mistakes. Big mistakes can’t glorify God. It is close to the anniversary of the big mistake, and I guess my guilt will haunt me every year around this time. I know God forgives everything. I know David committed murder. I know Paul committed murder. I’m not them and they are not me, and that doesn’t help. I think I should stick to reading my bible, listening to good sermons on tape, praying, and doing good some how some where.

 

[Colossians]

Pamelaopen,

Thank you for responding but none of this helps me. It makes it worse. I would rather have less for forgiveness for less mistakes. Big mistakes can&#8217;t glorify God.
On the contrary, without mistakes, God cannot be glorified.
God is only glorified by Christ's work at Calvary. If we had made no errors, then Christ would not have died, and God would not have been glorified. Not even in the slightest.


It is close to the anniversary of the big mistake, and I guess my guilt will haunt me every year around this time. I know God forgives everything.
If you have guilt, then you don't even know God forgives you, let alone everything.
We don't see David feeling guilty after God took his illegitimate child.
You don't realise it at present, but your reminding God of your sin, is actually sin itself.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Colossians, Sir I have seen that argument before and I have thought through the implications carefully. I have seen the argument that opponents to Calvinism do not understand Calvinism several times before as well. It seems to me Calvinists are a tad too eager to point to an assumed deficency in the cognative capability of opponents. God intervening in the world as necessary to bring about His purpose and plan is clearly taught in Scripture. Total predestination is incompatible with scripture.

Amen!