The IJ and the Sabbath

[BarnyFyfe]

Do you have any scriptural evidence for these xenomorphs?

For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings. 1 Corinthians 4:9 NIV

The greatest mistake of the IJ is the oversite in taking Daniel 7:9-10 as the antitype of Yom Kippur, when it is actually that of Yom Teruah, which is supported by Joel, Amos, and other books.

You think Daniel 7:9-10 depicts a "day of shouting or blasting?"
Really?

 

[BarnyFyfe]

Thank you great one for revealing my spelling error. I will try to do better since I now know a might bit more about you, that being your intolerance of the writing skills of others and your inclination to call out those small mistakes.

That's "mite," not "might." lol

After spending 40 years in the SDA church I Know Ellen was the last word.

Having been an Adventist myself for nearly 50 years it's strange that I should have such a different take on that. Oh I forgot. I've been hoodwinked.

Many very learned SDA scholars have rejected the IJ only to be cast out of the church.

They may have had their conference-paid "scholar" employment terminated (as they should) but we don't disfellowship people for not believing in the pre-advent judgment.

Please give us some examples of the IJ being a recurring theme anywhere.

Do your own Bible study. I'm not going to spoon-feed you stuff you should already know if you were an Adventist for 40 years.

I'm assuming the gloves are off now, right?

 

[Bob S]

That's "mite," not "might." lol

Yep! I was once so legalistic that I just had to call out everyone else's mistakes. Adventism does that to otherwise nice people, too bad.

Having been an Adventist myself for nearly 50 years it's strange that I should have such a different take on that. Oh I forgot. I've been hoodwinked.

Isn't that the truth. For fifty years you have believed Jesus is in a room sorting all the people that have ever lived into two classes? Furthermore He has been doing that for 175 years and counting? He created the stars, our universe, and everything in it in just six days. Could it be that you have been sold a bill of goods? Could it be that the church and prophet you serve is wrong about that and many other things you have been taught? For instance do you know that your prophet taught that the plan of salvation came after the fall of man, that in 1856 the listeners of her speech would here her tell them that Jesus would return before some of them died. I know Adventist brag about their longevity, but this is 2020. Where are those folks? Want to hear more about all the other untruths your prophet has written like all the stuff about our having to keep the Sabbath or go to Hell. And to think that same person put her stamp of approval on the falsehood teaching of the investigative judgment, OY. Yep, for what it is worth, I really do believe you have been hoodwinked.

They may have had their conference-paid "scholar" employment terminated (as they should) but we don't disfellowship people for not believing in the pre-advent judgment.

Oh, so that makes up for taking away their livelihood because they have a different opinion? As long as you pay the false tithe you can believe anything you want, just keep it to yourself. If you don't keep it to yourself we may have to shun you. Have you read Jerry Gladson's book A Theologian's Journey from Seventh-day Adventism? Before you get too proud and pop some buttons because of the fact that they can still stay in the church, read his book. It is available at Amazon

Do your own Bible study. I'm not going to spoon-feed you stuff you should already know if you were an Adventist for 40 years.

I have heard that before, especially when one cannot backup what they say or write. If you really would have had an answer to my question you would have wanted all the lurkers to our posts to know, wouldn't you? By the way, even if you would spoon feed me it would only be "stuff" taken out of context.

I'm assuming the gloves are off now, right?

Only if you cannot come up with some good excuses to this post Barney.

 

[BobRyan]

The greatest mistake of the IJ is the oversite in taking Daniel 7:9-10 as the antitype of Yom Kippur, .

Daniel 8:13-14 confirms that the judgment in Daniel 7 is Yom Kippur - it relates to the once a year cleansing of the sanctuary. The mistake some folks make is disconnecting Daniel 8 from the Daniel 7. Daniel 8 covers the same period of Persia and Greece as does Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 points to the same solution for the problem of the persecution of the saints as does Daniel 7 .. in chapter 7 it is called the judgment in Daniel 8 it is called the cleansing of the sanctuary -- Yom Kippur and we know that once a year on Yom Kippur the veil between holy and most holy place is replace with a new one in the "Type" service that points to the work of Christ as High Priest.

But many study Bibles do not make that same mistake if ignoring the connection between Daniel 7 and 8 (at least to a degree) since they all show Daniel 2, 7,8,9 in templates and that they all address common points in history. This is irrefutable.

 

[BobRyan]

If there are intelligent beings on other planets and and all are believers in Jesus and they are viewing what is going on here on Earth they know who are true believers.

Because they are all "infinite in knowledge" ?? because "true believers never sin so that's how they know?" -- ... "because they look at the heart and the inmost thoughts seen clearly from every planet in the universe"??... "because everyone in Job 1 and 2 were on the same page?"

You are not offering any reasons for the claim you are making so I thought I would toss out a few options for you to choose from.

Do you have any scriptural evidence for these xenomorphs?

Not sure if that is a reference to my post - but in the case above I simply point out the Job 1 and 2 fact.

There is a group gathered -- and when asked where he comes from - Satan says he comes from Earth.

Job
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.”

We are not told where the other's came from but from the text it is clear they did not all claim to come from Earth. There is no case on Earth where people answer "we come from Earth" because the context is already "Earth".

This happens again in Job 2.

Only Satan is asked to account for Job's obedience ... and only he claims to be working with Job and that God is interfering with his work on Job. Whatever this "group is" they are given the "case of Job" by God and the entire book of Job shows how that "test" worked out.

This is the easy part.

 

[BobRyan]

It is the church that named what they believe Jesus is doing and has been doing for 175 years, investigative judgment.

And as already stated "repeatedly" no doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist church claims Christ is "figuring something out" -- rather God is all knowing.. and this has been the position from day 1 for this church - as we both know.

Rather the Daniel 7:9-10 event is just as stated " a court room" context with myriads and myriads of non-God beings in attendance for whom "having infinite knowledge" is not an option. God is proven to be correct as Romans 3 points out.

Just as we also see in Job 1 and 2.

Why circle back is if the obvious has not already been stated on points that we all know to be true?

 

[BobRyan]

I find that there is a certain "comfort" some folks find in "ignoringe the details" in a given text so they can circle back to some prior stated assumption/preference as if the detail just quoted "still does not exist" even though that detail comes right from the text quoted.

It is fine for a given preference but it is not very compelling to someone else who may be reading their posts and that does not already share that same inclination to ignore the details.

 

[BarnyFyfe]

Yep! I was once so legalistic that I just had to call out everyone else's mistakes. Adventism does that to otherwise nice people, too bad.

I guess you just didn't understand the Gospel. I hate to break it to you, but my Southern Baptist parents and grandparents were legalists, too. Legalists are everywhere. They usually have gray hair, not a certain denominational affiliation. Where's your sense of humor, btw?

For fifty years you have believed Jesus is in a room sorting all the people that have ever lived into two classes? Furthermore He has been doing that for 175 years and counting? He created the stars, our universe, and everything in it in just six days.

Good thing a thousand years is like a day to Him, right?

Could it be that you have been sold a bill of goods? Could it be that the church and prophet you serve is wrong about that and many other things you have been taught?

Sure. I'm not infallible. But I've seen the same stuff you have and have still come to a different conclusion. Religious liberty, you know.

By the way, how could anyone serve a dead person? You don't really believe that everyone in the church holds exactly the same view of Mrs. White, do you? Because you depict Adventism as a bunch of identically programmed robots. That seems a little narrow.

For instance do you know that your prophet taught that the plan of salvation came after the fall of man, that in 1856 the listeners of her speech would here her tell them that Jesus would return before some of them died.

All this stuff has been addressed to my satisfaction. Sorry about you.

Oh, so that makes up for taking away their livelihood because they have a different opinion? As long as you pay the false tithe you can believe anything you want, just keep it to yourself. If you don't keep it to yourself we may have to shun you. Have you read Jerry Gladson's book A Theologian's Journey from Seventh-day Adventism? Before you get too proud and pop some buttons because of the fact that they can still stay in the church, read his book. It is available at Amazon

So either you lied or at least you were wrong about scholars being "cast out of the church." I'm not buying a book to read a story I've heard a hundred times just to humor you. If I want to hear people whine about being kicked out of the church all I have to do is search for SDA in YouTube. When you work for the same organization that governs your house of worship there's bound to be some overlap--good, bad or indifferent. I'm not unsympathetic to these folks but we do sometimes have to face ill effects of things we sign up for.

I had a ringside seat for the Ford/Rea upheaval. I've even heard the Glacier View tapes with Ford and Shea going at it. Ford was in error in his interpretation of Daniel 8 and Hebrews 9, just as Ballenger was 75 years before. This was plain for anyone to see from Shea's presentation. There's truly nothing new under the sun.

Carefully studious books have been written defending the Sanctuary doctrine by James White, Andrews, Smith, Haskell, Andreason, Goldstein and countless others. All are free to reject this singularly exclusive teaching of the Seventh-day Adventist church but to portray it as half-baked and indefensible is just to engage in intellectual dishonesty.

Seventh-day Adventism itself is included in the list of accepted Christian faith groups on this web site and to paint it as a brainwashing cult or to disrespect its founders and leaders is a violation of forum rules. Fair warning given.

 

[Bob S]

I guess you just didn't understand the Gospel. I hate to break it to you, but my Southern Baptist parents and grandparents were legalists, too. Legalists are everywhere. They usually have gray hair, not a certain denominational affiliation. Where's your sense of humor, btw?

Yep, that is why I am not a Baptist. Just because Baptists are legalists is not a good excuse for the "remnant" being legalists. Kind of like Johnny did it too. That doesn't solve the problem now does it?

Good thing a thousand years is like a day to Him, right?

Pass it off as not noteworthy, your way of debating.

Sure. I'm not infallible. But I've seen the same stuff you have and have still come to a different conclusion. Religious liberty, you know.

If you had seen the same "stuff" and been honest you would have come to a different conclusion.

By the way, how could anyone serve a dead person? You don't really believe that everyone in the church holds exactly the same view of Mrs. White, do you? Because you depict Adventism as a bunch of identically programmed robots. That seems a little narrow.

Isn't she one of the fundamental beliefs? If I remember correctly I had to submit to all of the beliefs of the church before I was a candidate for baptism. I guess as long as you pay into the coffers you can believe anything, especially if you don't make any noise.

All this stuff has been addressed to my satisfaction. Sorry about you.

I am sorry about that too. I like to help others see the real light.

So either you lied or at least you were wrong about scholars being "cast out of the church.

"

I'm not buying a book to read a story I've heard a hundred times just to humor you. If I want to hear people whine about being kicked out of the church all I have to do is search for SDA in YouTube. When you work for the same organization that governs your house of worship there's bound to be some overlap--good, bad or indifferent. I'm not unsympathetic to these folks but we do sometimes have to face ill effects of things we sign up for.

A hundred times??? Is that believable? So, you have seen on Youtube that SDAs have been kicked out of the church. Funny you wrote that I lied or....

I had a ringside seat for the Ford/Rea upheaval. I've even heard the Glacier View tapes with Ford and Shea going at it. Ford was in error in his interpretation of Daniel 8 and Hebrews 9, just as Ballenger was 75 years before. This was plain for anyone to see from Shea's presentation. There's truly nothing new under the sun.

A ringside seat? You must be of the paid hierarchy of the church. It is the church that is in error Barney. it cannot admit this because of the prophet's writings. What a great dilemma to be in. The hierarchy has to lie just as Hiram Edson did out there in the cornfield. Some excuse had to be formulated to cover up the great disappointment of 1844.

Carefully studious books have been written defending the Sanctuary doctrine by James White, Andrews, Smith, Haskell, Andreason, Goldstein and countless others. All are free to reject this singularly exclusive teaching of the Seventh-day Adventist church but to portray it as half-baked and indefensible is just to engage in intellectual dishonesty.

All paid by the church. Countless others???

Seventh-day Adventism itself is included in the list of accepted Christian faith groups on this web site and to paint it as a brainwashing cult or to disrespect its founders and leaders is a violation of forum rules. Fair warning given.

Would that be considered a threat to keep me from exposing some of the teachings?

I have not painted the church a brainwashing cult for several years. Please show me where I am not allowed to question the teachings of the leaders and founders of a group.

 

[BobRyan]

I had a ringside seat for the Ford/Rea upheaval. I've even heard the Glacier View tapes with Ford and Shea going at it. Ford was in error in his interpretation of Daniel 8 and Hebrews 9, just as Ballenger was 75 years before. This was plain for anyone to see from Shea's presentation. There's truly nothing new under the sun.

Good point

 

[BobRyan]

Yep, that is why I am not a Baptist. Just because Baptists are legalists is not a good excuse for the "remnant" being legalists.

Continually insulting whole groups of Christians as your only form of discourse is not as compelling as you may have at first imagined to yourself.

This forum of the board is not called "why I hate Seventh-day Adventists" or "why I like calling them names"... It is called "Sabbath and the LAW" and there are a number of non-SDAs posting here in favor of the Bible Sabbath and the LAW of God. Continually circling back to the old saw of "I don't like Adventists that believe the Bible when it comes to the Sabbath" posts is not helping your case as much as you may have at first imagined.

There is an actual Adventist section of the board for you to try out that stuff.

 

[Bob S]

Continually insulting whole groups of Christians as your only form of discourse is not as compelling as you may have at first imagined to yourself.

This forum of the board is not called "why I hate Seventh-day Adventists" or "why I like calling them names"... It is called "Sabbath and the LAW" and there are a number of non-SDAs posting here in favor of the Bible Sabbath and the LAW of God. Continually circling back to the old saw of "I don't like Adventists that believe the Bible when it comes to the Sabbath" posts is not helping your case as much as you may have at first imagined.

There is an actual Adventist section of the board for you to try out that stuff.

You know Bob I have had about enough of your twist. You take what I write and balloon it into an unrecognizable bunch of bologna. I shouldn't have to undo your twisted posts. Where have I ever said I do not like Adventists?. Hate is not a word in my vocabulary. You use this forum to express your views ultimately telling everyone that we have to keep Sabbath to be a Christian. That is an insult to all of us that do not believe we are under any such obligation. It is okay for Bob Ryan to write what he does, be aware if I or others do the same thing Bob is going to slam even to the extent of proclaiming untruths about his opponents.

It was just fine when Barney called Baptists legalistic. You had a chance to correct him, but when I reminded him that SDAs are also legalistic you get into a huff. Too bad Bob.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob S said: ↑
Yep, that is why I am not a Baptist. Just because Baptists are legalists is not a good excuse for the "remnant" being legalists.

Continually insulting whole groups of Christians as your only form of discourse is not as compelling as you may have at first imagined to yourself.

This forum of the board is not called "why I hate Seventh-day Adventists" or "why I like calling them names"...

You know Bob I have had about enough of your twist. You take what I write and balloon it into an unrecognizable bunch of bologna. .

you said "Yep, that is why I am not a Baptist. Just because Baptists are legalists is not a good excuse for the "remnant" being legalists."... I could simply report that exemplary post that you now claim is so good - instead. Are you saying that you would prefer that?? If so I am a bit surprised.

 

[BobRyan]

. You use this forum to express your views ultimately telling everyone that we have to keep Sabbath to be a Christian. That is an insult to all of us

You know you don't have such a quote from me... so you simply "quote you"... seriously? that works for you??

 

[Jerryhuerta]

For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings. 1 Corinthians 4:9 NIV

There are 36 occurrences of kosmiō in the NT and they do not refer to extraterrestrials; they refer to this world. There are others that interpret 1 Corinthians 4:9 as extraterrestrials and they teach Christ returns in a flying saucer.

You think Daniel 7:9-10 depicts a "day of shouting or blasting?"
Really?

All the other shadows had antitypes but not Rosh Hashanah. That's what SDAs teach, right?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Daniel 8:13-14 confirms that the judgment in Daniel 7 is Yom Kippur - it relates to the once a year cleansing of the sanctuary. The mistake some folks make is disconnecting Daniel 8 from the Daniel 7. Daniel 8 covers the same period of Persia and Greece as does Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 points to the same solution for the problem of the persecution of the saints as does Daniel 7 .. in chapter 7 it is called the judgment in Daniel 8 it is called the cleansing of the sanctuary -- Yom Kippur and we know that once a year on Yom Kippur the veil between holy and most holy place is replace with a new one in the "Type" service that points to the work of Christ as High Priest.

But many study Bibles do not make that same mistake if ignoring the connection between Daniel 7 and 8 (at least to a degree) since they all show Daniel 2, 7,8,9 in templates and that they all address common points in history. This is irrefutable.

The problem with such a rendition is that the little horn defiles the sanctuary and Yom Kippur concerns the cleansing of the sanctuary from the sins of the people of God, not the sea-beast of Revelation 13. There are more problems, but that's a major one that cannot be surmounted without ad hoc explanations.

 

[BobRyan]

The problem with such a rendition is that the little horn defiles the sanctuary and Yom Kippur concerns the cleansing of the sanctuary from the sins of the people of God, .

detail: Dan 7 points to the saints being persecuted the entire time of that judgment -- until "Judgment is passed in favor of saints" -- i.e. -- the end.

And at the time that such a thing was done (after the Persian empire of the ram and after the greek empire and after the Roman empire which would be "exceedingly great" as compared to the two previous ones) there is only one sanctuary - the one in heaven.

taking away the daily sacrifice , defiling the sanctuary -- could only be done by entering into Christianity itself and inserting false doctrine regarding the priesthood of Christ, forgiveness of sins, Atonement...

Yom Kippur is a day of judgment and removing sins.

Yom Kippur High Holiday Festival - Kehilat Sar Shalom
"Rosh Hashanah begins a period of ten days of judgment. The ten days end with the conclusion of Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. On Yom Kippur, the judgment is sealed.."

 

[Deade]

The problem with such a rendition is that the little horn defiles the sanctuary and Yom Kippur concerns the cleansing of the sanctuary from the sins of the people of God, not the sea-beast of Revelation 13. There are more problems, but that's a major one that cannot be surmounted without ad hoc explanations.

I am a Sabbath keeping published Christian author and I don't see an investigative judgment, nor do I agree with Ellen White's teachings. The people I fellowship with broke away from the Adventist movement before they formed their church in 1860.

 

[Bob S]

I am a Sabbath keeping published Christian author and I don't see an investigative judgment, nor do I agree with Ellen White's teachings. The people I fellowship with broke away from the Adventist movement before they formed their church in 1860.

Hi Deade, Would you care to tell us why you have chosen to keep the Seventh-day? Do you believe keeping the Sabbath of the old covenant has anything to do with salvation?

Paul wrote in Gal 3:19 that Jesus was the end of the Law. Law meaning the laws within the Sinai covenant. Wouldn't that include the law pertaining to Sabbath observance? He also wrote in 2Cor3:6-11 KJV that the ten commandments were done away. Wouldn't that mean the Sabbath command found in those ten also would be done away?

I can understand why SDAs corporately worship on Saturday, they are following their prophet. I hope you will shed some light as to why you choose to keep that day.

 

[Deade]

Hi Deade, Would you care to tell us why you have chosen to keep the Seventh-day? Do you believe keeping the Sabbath of the old covenant has anything to do with salvation?

Paul wrote in Gal 3:19 that Jesus was the end of the Law. Law meaning the laws within the Sinai covenant. Wouldn't that include the law pertaining to Sabbath observance? He also wrote in 2Cor3:6-11 KJV that the ten commandments were done away. Wouldn't that mean the Sabbath command found in those ten also would be done away?

I can understand why SDAs corporately worship on Saturday, they are following their prophet. I hope you will shed some light as to why you choose to keep that day.

For a long version visit my website HERE and get to know me really well. You can pick up my first published book free there also.

Now, for a shorter version: I felt led by the Holy Spirit to determine when an ordinance was established and why. I came to the conclusion that the Sabbath was sanctified by the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ Himself at creation. So were the dietary ordinances. Then I ask why, and established that they were good for us. They also separated us (made us holy) for His peculiar people (see Titus 2:14). Also that Christ does not change (see Heb. 13:8). Nuff said, for me.