The IJ and the Sabbath

[Dare 2 B A Daniel]

SDAs believe if you don't keep the Sabbath you will lose your eternal inheritance.

This is simply not true.

Many a Christian who has (even more recently than the Sabbath has been proclaimed widely) gone down to a Catholic grave having never kept a 7th-day Sabbath will arise on the day of the resurrection of the just to meet their Lord in the air. Every intelligent Seventh-day Adventist knows this.

 

[Dare 2 B A Daniel]

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[Dare 2 B A Daniel]

This is a debate forum my friend. My OP is not directed to any individual. It is questioning a belief system.

As to how to treat others, maybe you should read your post to me back to yourself. I find it a bit "snarky". Instead of putting my posts down with hollow opinions, why not present something in defense in place of all the empty rhetoric.

In your original post of this thread--that you started--you refer to "the SDA supreme authority" no less than three (3) times. Since no one had a chance beforehand to claim that the Seventh-day Adventist church constitutes any sort of "supreme authority," and since your disdain for the church and its teachings is so painfully obvious, one would have to assume that your characterization is intended to be dismissive, condescending, and insulting. Let's just keep things real, shall we? This appears to amount to a bit more than "questioning a belief system."

But then, along comes "Poor Jesus," heavenly "time zones," and other items of ridicule regarding what might or might not be taking place in Heaven at present.

What if you're wrong? We're only human, right? What if you're actually insulting God and Heaven?

Perhaps you think being flippant and (well, let's just put it out there again) super-snarky is a good method for attempting "to give SDAs a chance to think about what they have been taught and most accept without ever dealing with where the belief came from."

If you're truly interested in thoughts about your OP:

I think your intentions as stated by yourself are somewhat questionable.

 

[Bob S]

This is simply not true.

What is not true. Are you saying that SDAs don't teach that if we refuse to keep the Sabbath we will lose our eternal inheritance?

Many a Christian who has (even more recently than the Sabbath has been proclaimed widely) gone down to a Catholic grave having never kept a 7th-day Sabbath will arise on the day of the resurrection of the just to meet their Lord in the air. Every intelligent Seventh-day Adventist knows this.

That may be true, but that is not the official belief of SDAs.

 

[Bob S]

If there are intelligent beings on other planets and and all are believers in Jesus and they are viewing what is going on here on Earth they know who are true believers. Even if they cannot tell who we are they believe and trust in their Creator. He shouldn't have to spend 175 years counting heads to show them that He is just. He said: "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep" Jn10:14. Jesus already knows, so why would He have to spend all those years doing what He already knows? 2Tim2:19 verifies that Jesus knows who are going to be with Him in Heaven. "The Lord knoweth them that are His."

SDAs have Jesus in the Most Holy place proving to the universe what He said he already knows? That is
so preposterous and so against what the Bible teaches. The little flock must have been really desperate To have had to come up with that excuse.

What is even more preposterous is that any thinking person today would still be buying into that belief.

 

[Dare 2 B A Daniel]

What is not true. Are you saying that SDAs don't teach that if we refuse to keep the Sabbath we will lose our eternal inheritance?

Adventists rarely even use the term "eternal inheritance." And, as I'm sure you know, Adventists do not teach much of anything using one carefully-crafted sentence. The Bible teaches that sin is the transgression of the law and that the wages of sin is death. The conclusions that are drawn by an individual presented with a succession of Biblical evidence are between that individual and The Holy Ghost. People who believe they have experienced conviction about the validity of the 7th day Sabbath would do well to heed it. Not rocket science.

That may be true, but that is not the official belief of SDAs.

Yes, 28 fundamental beliefs (which, unless I am mistaken, are not even considered an official creed, BTW) are not exhaustive enough to address every eventuality of faith issues. Fortunately, we all have a large, well-established, comprehensive volume to guide us in matters of faith—The Bible.

 

[Dare 2 B A Daniel]

If there are intelligent beings on other planets and and all are believers in Jesus and they are viewing what is going on here on Earth they know who are true believers. Even if they cannot tell who we are they believe and trust in their Creator.

It's good to have an extra-terrestrial psychology expert on-site.

He shouldn't have to spend 175 years counting heads to show them that He is just.

Seems reasonable enough, but maybe we should just let Christ, God, The Son do whatever He feels is necessary to make His plan comprehensive.

SDAs have Jesus in the Most Holy place proving to the universe what He said he already knows?

Wait, I thought they had Him "counting heads" for His own quality assurance benefit. Are you sure you know what they have Him doing?

By the way, your insulting usage of the term "little flock" should go a long way towards endearing yourself to the "SDAs" you're trying to help. Excellent technique. Really great stuff.

 

[BobRyan]

If there are intelligent beings on other planets and and all are believers in Jesus and they are viewing what is going on here on Earth they know who are true believers.

Because they are all "infinite in knowledge" ?? because "true believers never sin so that's how they know?" -- ... "because they look at the heart and the inmost thoughts seen clearly from every planet in the universe"??... "because everyone in Job 1 and 2 were on the same page?"

You are not offering any reasons for the claim you are making so I thought I would toss out a few options for you to choose from.

 

[BobRyan]

He shouldn't have to spend 175 years counting heads to show them that He is just.

Do tell.

How long did it take to explore the case of just one person.. in the book of Job?

starting from Adam and going to the 7 billion we have today - how much time "did you allow them" so that all the unfallen beings in the universe had all the details they needed to know each case?

where can I get one of those crystal balls?

================= meanwhile ... in the Bible we have this.

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Dan 7
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

... So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.’

19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

26 ... the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

28 “At this point the revelation ended.

Matthew 7
"not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father... the one who hears these words of mine and does them"

 

[Bob S]

He said: "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep" Jn10:14. Jesus already knows, so why would He have to spend all those years doing what He already knows? 2Tim2:19 verifies that Jesus knows who are going to be with Him in Heaven. "The Lord knoweth them that are His."

I don't know why SDAs continue to uphold a doctrine that cannot hold water. All Bob presented were excuses. Jesus presented the truth. "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep" which is diametrically opposed to what the SDA church teaches. God created billions of planets and suns in a day and yet He has not figured out which of His children are to gain eternal life after reviewing us for 175 years??? No wonder most SDAs sweep the doctrine under the rug.

 

[BobRyan]

He said: "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep" Jn10:14. Jesus already knows,

True.. God is all-knowing. This is never stated as "God trying to figure something out". (See Daniel 7 and Romans 2... 2 Cor 5:10 etc)

I don't know why SDAs continue to uphold a doctrine that cannot hold water.

We read the Bible - and pay attention to "the details" -- makes all the difference in the world.

 

[BarnyFyfe]

Jesus already knows, so why would He have to spend all those years doing what He already knows?

HI, Bob S. It is because the investigative judgment is not for the purpose of informing Christ. (In all my years as an Adventist I've never heard such a thing taught in any of our churches or evangelism outreach efforts.) It is for the benefit of everyone else. That's how He operates. Always to bless others.

 

[Bob S]

HI, Bob S. It is because the investigative judgment is not for the purpose of informing Christ. (In all my years as an Adventist I've never heard such a thing taught in any of our churches or evangelism outreach efforts.) It is for the benefit of everyone else. That's how He operates. Always to bless others.

Greetings Barney, good to have you on the forum. From my prospective you have been hoodwinked. Even the words Investigative judgement show that SDAs doctrine has Jesus going over the books containing the records of every human being and passing judgement. He is making judgement of each life. And according to the prophet Ellen White even if the subject being investigated has one unconfessed sin that person is removed by Jesus from the book of life. Every word and action has been recorded and nothing is hidden. That, in no way, sounds like Jesus is just confirming to the angels and "anyone else" that He is/was just. If all the He is doing is "for the benefit of everyone else" to see that God is really just we have a big problem. Jesus is God. If in the eyes of "everyone else" there is any doubt that God could be unjust in culling those who didn't live according to the rules set forth and God is the one going over the books how would His going over the books prove without a doubt that He is being above reproach?

 

[BarnyFyfe]

Greetings Barney, good to have you on the forum. From my prospective you have been hoodwinked.

Lovely greeting. Thanks. You certainly have the right to your opinion but it seems a little harsh considering you have so little information about me.

Even the words Investigative judgement show that SDAs doctrine has Jesus going over the books containing the records of every human being and passing judgement. He is making judgement of each life.

I don't see the problem. Except that judgment only has one "e." Investigators rarely investigate for their own benefit.

And according to the prophet Ellen White even if the subject being investigated has one unconfessed sin that person is removed by Jesus from the book of life.

It's a good thing Ellen White isn't the last word on the investigative judgment then, isn't it?

Every word and action has been recorded and nothing is hidden. That, in no way, sounds like Jesus is just confirming to the angels and "anyone else" that He is/was just.

Well, again, everyone has a right to their opinion.

If all the He is doing is "for the benefit of everyone else" to see that God is really just we have a big problem. Jesus is God. If in the eyes of "everyone else" there is any doubt that God could be unjust in culling those who didn't live according to the rules set forth and God is the one going over the books how would His going over the books prove without a doubt that He is being above reproach?

I believe the accepted view is that investigative judgment, which is a recurring theme in the Bible, is purely voluntary on the part of God as a means to prevent doubt as opposed to reacting to it.

 

[BobRyan]

Even the words Investigative judgement show that SDAs doctrine has Jesus going over the books containing the records of every human being and passing judgement.

It does not claim that he is "figuring something out" - demonstrating that the evidence written on the books of Daniel 7 are showing the case that He knows to be true - explaining that to the "myriads and myriads" in Daniel 7 is not the same thing as God Himself not knowing or understanding the data being revealed any more than a teacher explaining something in a book - is "proof" that the teacher did not know it before explaining it.

As we all know.

you make wild assertions then when challenged on that point do some degree of spin on those words. Were we simply "not supposed to notice" that the claim you are making is not supported?

 

[BobRyan]

if the subject being investigated has one unconfessed sin that person is removed by Jesus from the book of life.

Turns out .. that having sin that is not covered by the blood of Jesus -- is a huge problem in the judgment. I think we all knew that. Where is the "news" there???

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 12:36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.

Every word and action has been recorded and nothing is hidden. That, in no way, sounds like Jesus is just confirming

Giving the account - means as Daniel 7 points out - the things written in the book demonstrate the validity of the outcome.

Eccl 12
13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

Rom 2
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

[Bob S]

Lovely greeting. Thanks. You certainly have the right to your opinion but it seems a little harsh considering you have so little information about me.

You wrote:: "It is because the investigative judgment is not for the purpose of informing Christ." That is the information you submitted. I made my remark on the only thing I know knew about you. If you believe it is "harsh" I can live with that. If you don't believe what you wrote then I will have to reconsider my opinion. It is the church that named what they believe Jesus is doing and has been doing for 175 years, investigative judgment. That certainly does not indicate that Jesus was/is going over the books for the benefit of those that might have doubts. God has to vindicate Himself??? Come on brother, we who are not Adventists are not that gullible.

I don't see the problem. Except that judgment only has one "e." Investigators rarely investigate for their own benefit.

Thank you great one for revealing my spelling error. I will try to do better since I now know a might bit more about you, that being your intolerance of the writing skills of others and your inclination to call out those small mistakes.

It's a good thing Ellen White isn't the last word on the investigative judgment then, isn't it?

Hmmmm! After spending 40 years in the SDA church I Know Ellen was the last word. Many very learned SDA scholars have rejected the IJ only to be cast out of the church. Ellen White"s seal is on that doctrine and she is above reproach and critiquing her writings spells doom to anyone brave enough to take on that task.

Well, again, everyone has a right to their opinion.

Isn't that the truth.

I believe the accepted view is that investigative judgment, which is a recurring theme in the Bible, is purely voluntary on the part of God as a means to prevent doubt as opposed to reacting to it.

Please give us some examples of the IJ being a recurring theme anywhere.

I believe that if there was such a plan by Jesus to go into a place on October 22, 1844 and spend 175 years, and counting, going over what He already knows the plan would not have been hidden in the book of Daniel in symbolic terms. Why would God need to hide His plan and make thousands of people suffer and some even die believing the mistakes made by Wm Miller? God could have revealed the supposed IJ plan to Wm Miller instead of Hiram Edson and many lives would have gone on without interruption and destruction.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Because they are all "infinite in knowledge" ?? because "true believers never sin so that's how they know?" -- ... "because they look at the heart and the inmost thoughts seen clearly from every planet in the universe"??... "because everyone in Job 1 and 2 were on the same page?"

You are not offering any reasons for the claim you are making so I thought I would toss out a few options for you to choose from.

Do you have any scriptural evidence for these xenomorphs?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Do tell.

How long did it take to explore the case of just one person.. in the book of Job?

starting from Adam and going to the 7 billion we have today - how much time "did you allow them" so that all the unfallen beings in the universe had all the details they needed to know each case?

where can I get one of those crystal balls?

================= meanwhile ... in the Bible we have this.

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Dan 7
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

... So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.’

19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

26 ... the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

28 “At this point the revelation ended.

Matthew 7
"not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father... the one who hears these words of mine and does them"

The greatest mistake of the IJ is the oversite in taking Daniel 7:9-10 as the antitype of Yom Kippur, when it is actually that of Yom Teruah, which is supported by Joel, Amos, and other books.