The idol equality

musingsofacac · Jan 19, 2014

Since I was a young man in high-school(way back 20 something year ago) I was always interested in the war between equality and liberty. Many people think these are the same thing but they are not.

Most societies have tried to reach a balance between liberty and equality, but few do this. One will serve the other, either liberty will trump equality or equality will trump liberty.

In communist and socialist societies equality always trumps liberty. You can only have freedom in as much as it does not produce or cause inequality in these societies.

As America was originally founded, Liberty always trumped equality. Equality is never mentioned in the original constitution. Freedom is mentioned extensively. The more free men are, the more inequality will exist. The more equality is mandated by the state, the less free men will be.

In my opinion, since the civil rights era, America has begun the turn to having equality trump freedom leading us down the path to socialism. People no longer have complete control over their property and businesses. Take for instance the baker who was sued for not baking a wedding cake for a gay couple. In that case and many others in the last 30 years or so, equality always trumps freedom. We have to wake up as nation and ask ourselves, how much of our freedom are we willing to sacrifice on the altar to the idol of Equality?

I read an excellent article entitled "The idol of Equality" - one of the best articles I have ever read on this subject. Read it here

Ishraqiyun · Jan 19, 2014

I think anytime a person becomes too focused on single word catch phrases or bumper sticker type slogan, even otherwise good ones like "equality" and "liberty", to the point of being an extreme ideologue and being unable to think pragmatically, it ends up being a bad thing. Both liberty and equality tend to be positive ideals and often they hang together well and in some situations they don't and they actually conflict with one another. In the later cases you just have to compromise and work out a pragmatic solution.

AceHero · Jan 19, 2014

Ishraqiyun said:
I think anytime a person becomes too focused on single word catch phrases or bumper sticker type slogan, even otherwise good ones like "equality" and "liberty", to the point of being an extreme ideologue and being unable to think pragmatically, it ends up being a bad thing. Both liberty and equality tend to be positive ideals and often they hang together well and in some situations they don't and they actually conflict with one another. In the later cases you just have to compromise and work out a pragmatic solution.

Yeah, why can't we have both? Why must one cancel out the other?

trastamara said:
Equality is not the enemy. Equality is the minimum requirement for civilizaiton.

If one feels that establishing basic rules mandating equality is somehow infringing their rights, then their rights are likely to be things they should not "value".

If one values harming others then that "right" must be (no matter what version of "rights" and "ethics" one adheres to) moderated.

If one values being a bigot then one should NOT attempt to get money from people one doesn't want to treat as human.

Equality is simply setting the bare minimum of controls on a human society.

If one fears equality then there is something far deeper that is wrong with that person than merely wanting "freedom".

If I don't feel you are EQUAL to me then I am likely to assume my FREEDOMS trump YOURS. So I will take advantage of you and I will not care if I harm you. Why should I? You are nothing to me. You are not my equal.

Does that sound like the kind of society you would like to live in?

If freedom somehow trumps equality, then it's probably not a very good form of freedom, or it's freedom only for some. To me, having equality means having freedom. If I didn't have equality, how could I truly be free?

Creech · Jan 19, 2014

Great post. Humans are unequal, everyone is different. An unequal people should not be treated equally.

Avniel · Jan 19, 2014

In general there is no perfect political system. Communism and socialism breeds corruption through fear while capitalism breeds corruption through greed. I will never forget it poli sci 101 "in order to understand politics one must first understand the nature of man is to gain power and become deviant, all politics is evil." As I've grown and paid more attention and studied politics and sociology he most certainly was correct.

AceHero · Jan 19, 2014

Creech said:
Great post. Humans are unequal, everyone is different. An unequal people should not be treated equally.

Uh...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

United States Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vylo · Jan 20, 2014

Equality is never mentioned in the original constitution

Perhaps, but it is in the first sentence of the preamble of the DOI.

EdwinWillers · Jan 20, 2014

Vylo said:
Perhaps, but it is in the first sentence of the preamble of the DOI.

Yes, but it's mentioned in the context of their creation, not their maturation, which is necessarily not equal, even though some might want it to be.

jayem · Jan 20, 2014

musingsofacac said:
As America was originally founded, Liberty always trumped equality. Equality is never mentioned in the original constitution.

It's implied in the Preamble.

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice...

This doesn't mean courts and laws. It's the broader meaning, which is justice in the sense of impartiality. In a just society, the laws apply equally to all. A corollary of which is fair treatment of everyone. Liberty can be restricted so that the privileged and powerful do not exploit the weak. The founders knew that in the old world, rich nobles were free to oppress those under them. This made for an unstable society prone to violent uprising. (That's one reason the Constitution explicitly forbids the government from ever granting any titles of nobility.) You're entitled to believe that the pendulum has now swung too far in the direction of enforced egalitarianism. It's a balancing act, and it won't ever be perfect. But ensuring some degree of fair treatment for all is a legitimate duty of good government.

iluvatar5150 · Jan 20, 2014

musingsofacac said:
Since I was a young man in high-school(way back 20 something year ago) I was always interested in the war between equality and liberty. Many people think these are the same thing but they are not.

Most societies have tried to reach a balance between liberty and equality, but few do this. One will serve the other, either liberty will trump equality or equality will trump liberty.

In communist and socialist societies equality always trumps liberty. You can only have freedom in as much as it does not produce or cause inequality in these societies.

As America was originally founded, Liberty always trumped equality. Equality is never mentioned in the original constitution. Freedom is mentioned extensively. The more free men are, the more inequality will exist. The more equality is mandated by the state, the less free men will be.

In my opinion, since the civil rights era, America has begun the turn to having equality trump freedom leading us down the path to socialism. People no longer have complete control over their property and businesses. Take for instance the baker who was sued for not baking a wedding cake for a gay couple. In that case and many others in the last 30 years or so, equality always trumps freedom. We have to wake up as nation and ask ourselves, how much of our freedom are we willing to sacrifice on the altar to the idol of Equality?

I read an excellent article entitled "The idol of Equality" - one of the best articles I have ever read on this subject. Read it here

That article isn't excellent. It's asinine. Pretty much everything he claims is wrong:

"Millions of Americans have lost the liberty to select their own type of health insurance, purchased on their own volition to best match their own assessments of their particular needs. "

No, insurance companies lost the freedom to sell over-priced (but still cheap) plan to people who could afford no better. Now, millions of people have the freedom to buy real insurance that they can actually afford.

eroding the military tradition in infantry service of restricting women to non-combat roles,

I thought this guy wanted freedom. Why shouldn't women be free to serve in these roles?

promoting the suppression of interest rates by the Federal Reserve to reward the many who owe money and punish the fewer who saved some all on the notion of helping the proverbial people.

Ok, so this guy's just an idiot. That's not why the Fed is keeping interest rates low.

The government renames terrorism man-caused disasters

Again, this guy is an idiot. "Man-cause disasters" is a more broad term than just "terrorism."

The universities are probably societys worst offenders. Under the guise of seeking race, class, and gender equity, they have denied free expression through speech codes. They have undermined traditional liberal-arts curricula on the grounds that they were not sufficiently sensitive to these same gender, race, and class issues. And they have placed their institutions from the selection of graduation speakers, to the hiring and promotion of administrators and faculty, to the criteria for admitting students and the scale on which they are graded in service not to academic excellence or even civil liberties, but to a perceived equality of result.

Wrong. It has mostly to do with universities slashing budgets for departments that don't bring in a lot of revenue.

Gun-control laws and the use of the bully pulpit and government protocols to prevent law-abiding citizens from obtaining traditional firearms did not curb the murder rate in Chicago or Detroit. It only drove up the price of bullets, created panic buying, and ultimately will result in more, not fewer, guns in the hands of citizens who are now angry that their government slanders them as quasi-criminals.

Wrong. Gun control laws didn't drive up prices and create a buying panic - gun rights people did. It was wholly irrational; it was wholly self-inflicted; and it made people who sell guns & ammo quite a lot of money.

I could go on, but page 2 looks to be about more of the same. This guy is wrong on practically every count, and his points are all easily countered by anybody with a minute or two to spend on google. If the author wants to identify idols, he ought to take a look at the idol of freedom that he's worshipping.

Ishraqiyun · Jan 20, 2014

Yeah, why can't we have both? Why must one cancel out the other?

In most cases you can. Too much inequality and the unequal segment of the population will not have the same ability to exercise their liberty. Take speech and influencing the direction of the country via elections. If some people can't even afford to take the day off work to go to a protest whereas another segment of the population has billions they can spend on propaganda or even directly purchasing a politician then the former group can't exercise their right in a manner as effective as the later group for example. If the income gap shrinks the level of influence the common wo/man can bring to bear on the direction of the nation increases.

Creech · Jan 20, 2014

AceHero said:
Uh...

United States Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I disagree with that statement.

Creech · Jan 20, 2014

I believe it is the principles of equality and democracy that destroyed once amazing and beautiful cities such as Detroit, Birmingham, Atlanta, etc. Equality is a failed idea.

Ishraqiyun · Jan 20, 2014

I believe it is the principles of equality and democracy that destroyed once amazing and beautiful cities such as Detroit, Birmingham, Atlanta, etc. Equality is a failed idea.

How did those principles cause the destruction of those cities in your opinion?

MachZer0 · Jan 20, 2014

trastamara said:
Could you please note where "Freedom" or "Free" is mentioned in the Constitution. The only mention of "Free" I can find is Article 1 Sec 2 "
Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. "

You missed this part:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

abysmul · Jan 20, 2014

equality?
equal what?
opportunity?
outcome?

kevinmaynard · Jan 20, 2014

Creech said:
I believe it is the principles of equality and democracy that destroyed once amazing and beautiful cities such as Detroit, Birmingham, Atlanta, etc. Equality is a failed idea.

Do you live in the South?

kevinmaynard · Jan 20, 2014

Creech said:
I believe it is the principles of equality and democracy that destroyed once amazing and beautiful cities such as Detroit, Birmingham, Atlanta, etc. Equality is a failed idea.

Do you live in the South?

I can't take racism seriously. Your racism isn't Christian.

EdwinWillers · Jan 20, 2014

kevinmaynard said:
Do you live in the South?

I can't take racism seriously. Your racism isn't Christian.

What in the world is racist about what Creech said?

kevinmaynard · Jan 20, 2014

EdwinWillers said:
What in the world is racist about what Creech said?

The whole statement.

If you think blacks and whites are not equal and should not have been made equal under the law I feel sorry for you.

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