The Hypocrisy Of Prevenient Grace ...

[cygnusx1]

Many who affirm the Dogma of Prevenient Grace are called Arminians or Synergists . They preach that man is somehow tainted enough that he is unable to come to the Lord for salvation without prevenient Grace , seeing mankind are descended from Fallen Adam it is correct to say we are imperfect and in need of salvation .

Calvinists have maintained for years that saving Grace is God's chosen method for saving sinners , affirming this "saving Grace" actually saves , it is not only sufficient but efficient , it is effectual and by definition "irresistible" .

This doctrine is founded upon at least a dozen scriptures but is denied by Arminians and all Synergists .

It is argued that God is love , man has free will , therefore God must not "force" salvation , faith , repentance or saving Grace upon anyone , they must all be willing to receive otherwise God is a tyrant and man is being treated like a stone.

The main problem with this critique is it leaves the synergist wide open to not only inconsistency but massive hypocrisy :

ask any synergist if men are in need of grace and they will reply "oh yes , of course , none can be saved without it " ...

now ask them when this grace is over men and they will reply "from before they are even saved" giving them a fair chance to be saved .

ask them how extensive is this Prevenient grace , and they will reply "it is universal , all mankind is under Prevenient Grace to grant all an equal chance at salvation "

Finally ask them , "do all men agree to having this Prevenient Grace over them from birth " and they will respond "oh no , God doesn't ask anyone's permission , He doesn't grant men a choice over Prevenient Grace , He just forces it on every single person" !


Is it not clear that this massive inconsistency has proved the dogma without any merit , for if saving Grace is rejected because God cannot or will not impose such Grace , then upon what level of integrity can it be held that God can and does impose Prevenient Grace upon every person , even those who don't want it , didn't ask for it and reject it .

In truth ;



the doctrine of prevenient grace has been invented to make the Gospel equal to all , all must have the same chance , all must have no inclination to sin for prevenient grace presupposes the thing it hates most , the total depravity and inability of man , yet it makes man basically a-moral , neither saving them nor making them Holy , what are the PRACTICAL differences between Pelagian view of man and the Semi-Pelelgian , Arminian view , they both place man without bias and able to do whatever god commands , , ie they are in practice the same . How is this prevenient grace administered ? it cannot be through the Gospel preached as that is far from Universal in it's application .

The Wesleyan pays lip service to total depravity .... for it is meaningless once it is recognised it has allegedly been taken care of , man is not freed by the Gospel , not by regeneration not by Saving Grace but instead freed by Prevenient universal grace which is by definition IRRESISTIBLE !!!!

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Prevenient grace takes the "Amazing" out of "Amazing Grace". How amazing is it that people choose of their own "free will" to "put their faith in" and "accept" Christ? What really amazes me is how anyone given the choice would actually choose to go to hell. If everyone actually believed in hell, and could choose otherwise, we would all be saved. But then, why doesn't everyone whom have heard the gospel and of the wrath of God, therefore make that wise, good, healthy choice? Doesn't everyone have enough "light" in them that they can choose to be saved? Prevenient grace is based more on humanism mixed with ancient greek free will philosophy, than the bible.

 

[heymikey80]

T'me the hypocrisy is hiding behind "Prevenient Grace" as a concept instead of trying to come up with a better description of the distinctive of the view.

I dunno, it seems to be "Non-Commital Grace" that gives you enough to set you on a knife edge of decision, and then leaves it up to your unwise, corrupted mind to make a decision of eternal spiritual importance.

Prevenient Grace on the other hand, I'm perfectly happy with. The Spirit gets involved long before an elected person believes.

 

[cygnusx1]

T'me the hypocrisy is hiding behind "Prevenient Grace" as a concept instead of trying to come up with a better description of the distinctive of the view.

I dunno, it seems to be "Non-Commital Grace" that gives you enough to set you on a knife edge of decision, and then leaves it up to your unwise, corrupted mind to make a decision of eternal spiritual importance.

yes Mikey , I do see this concept as "non-Commital Grace" for it appears it does very little to mankind in general . Mankind remains unregenerate and TD .

If Irresistible Grace is immoral then how much more Universally Imposed "Prevenient Grace" !

Prevenient Grace on the other hand, I'm perfectly happy with. The Spirit gets involved long before an elected person believes.

That works fine for Calvinists , but ,

It only works where the elect are concerned for it is saving prevenient grace , the problem is those who are so rankled by Irresistible Grace fail to bat an eyelid over universally imposed Prevenient Grace . For it is given to those who didn't agree to it ?


Imagine getting all worked up over irresistable Grace (which is particular) but being perfectly OK with Universal prevenient Grace ......

It seems Universal Grace is acceptable but particular saving grace is quickly rejected even though they are both clearly irresistible .


when is Grace unacceptable to many ? when it determines the final outcome. and when it distinguishes , and elects.

 

[heymikey80]

Once again an apt point -- why would God be so morally justified in changing people against their will with either prevenient grace or regenerative grace?

 

[ConsumedByHisCall]

"7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up." James 4

Is it your contention that this is impossible for someone to "humble" themselves as this verse calls sinners to do, unless God first lifts them up? Kind of got the cart before the horse, don't you think?

1 Peter 5:6:
Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.

 

[ConsumedByHisCall]

Prevenient grace takes the "Amazing" out of "Amazing Grace". How amazing is it that people choose of their own "free will" to "put their faith in" and "accept" Christ? What really amazes me is how anyone given the choice would actually choose to go to hell. If everyone actually believed in hell, and could choose otherwise, we would all be saved. But then, why doesn't everyone whom have heard the gospel and of the wrath of God, therefore make that wise, good, healthy choice? Doesn't everyone have enough "light" in them that they can choose to be saved? Prevenient grace is based more on humanism mixed with ancient greek free will philosophy, than the bible.

Then how do you interpret Romans 1 which concludes pretty much saying the exact opposite of what you just said:

"Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

"7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up." James 4

Is it your contention that this is impossible for someone to "humble" themselves as this verse calls sinners to do, unless God first lifts them up? Kind of got the cart before the horse, don't you think?

1 Peter 5:6:
Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.

Contrary to your assumption, I propose the "sinners" audience of James 4, are actually Christians. It is an exhortation for Christians to humble themselves before the Lord (not man). Part of the context for what I propose is where James uses the phrase "double-minded". He is addressing worldly Christians. Also in verse 11 of Chapter 4 James say's "Do not speak evil of one another, brethren." Notice here James uses the word "brethren", this context further supports that the intended audience is to Christians. And the reason James wrote these things is because they were saying and doing those things contrary to the the Lordship of Christ. Finally, we should not confuse the monergism of salvation with the synergism of sanctification. Doing so will lead us to wrong conclusions.

 

[OzSpen]

Prevenient grace takes the "Amazing" out of "Amazing Grace". How amazing is it that people choose of their own "free will" to "put their faith in" and "accept" Christ? What really amazes me is how anyone given the choice would actually choose to go to hell. If everyone actually believed in hell, and could choose otherwise, we would all be saved. But then, why doesn't everyone whom have heard the gospel and of the wrath of God, therefore make that wise, good, healthy choice? Doesn't everyone have enough "light" in them that they can choose to be saved? Prevenient grace is based more on humanism mixed with ancient greek free will philosophy, than the bible.

Prevenient grace is amazing grace because:

1. God must take the initiative if human beings are to be saved to enjoy eternal life. God's common grace will not bring people to salvation. That God took the initiative in salvation is shown by what he did with Adam & Eve after the fall into sin (Gen. 3:8-9). Even after they became fallen human beings, they were still able to hear the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden and the Lord God called on the man and that man was able to hear God - even though 'totally depraved'.
2. We know this from the teachings of Isa. 59:15-16 and John 15:16. Paul told us in Rom. 2:4 that God's kindness was designed to lead people to repentance.
3. In accepting prevenient grace, I understand that God, in his amazing grace, has made it possible for all people to be saved (e.g. 2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 2:2; Titus 2:11). With Titus 2:11, this amazing grace of God has appeared 'bringing salvation for all people' (ESV) or 'the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men' (NIV).
4. The result is that the human will is freed in relation to salvation. This is what is implied in the OT and NT exhortations to turn to God (see Rov. 1:23; Isa. 31:6; Matt. 18:3; Acts 3:19), to repent (1 Kings 8:47; Mark 1:15; Luke 13:3, 5; Acts 2:38; 17:30), and to believe (2 Chron 20:20: Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31; Phil 1:29; 1 John 3:23).
5. We must remember what this means. It DOES NOT mean that prevenient grace makes it possible for a human being to change the permanent bent/nature of his will in favour of God. It does not mean that a person can stop sinning in the natural and make herself/himself acceptable to God. It does mean that a person can make an initial response to God (as with Adam & Eve) and God can give repentance and faith. God can say as he stated in Jeremiah 31:18, "Bring me back that I may be restored, for you are the Lord my God". Or, "Restore us again, O God of our salvation, and put away your indignation toward us" (Ps. 85:4). God does it, but not without 'restore us again" or "bring me back". This truly is amazing grace. If we can say this, God has granted us a measure of freedom to respond to him - truly amazing grace. This means that in some way God has enabled us to act contrary to our fallen nature. If we will say this much, 'bring me back', God will grant a person repentance ("Acts 5:32; 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25) and faith (Rom. 12:3; 2 Peter 1:1).
6. God's amazing prevenient grace has enabled human beings to have this opportunity to respond to God. It is a resistible grace, but God has enabled the will to respond to Him.
7. So prevenient grace is amazing, God-sent grace.

This is amazing prevenient grace that enables all human beings to have the free will to say yea or nay to God.

This is linked with comprehensive depravity, conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace and the free will to commit apostasy. What an amazing God he is!

In Christ, Oz

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Then how do you interpret Romans 1 which concludes pretty much saying the exact opposite of what you just said:

"Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

Calvinists do not deny common grace, we just do not make the mistake of confusing it with special or saving grace. Even demons believe in God, they fear and tremble, mankind knows there is a God, but suppress the truth in unrighteousness not giving credit where it is due. Now, is there not a difference in how believers believe in God and how non-believers believe in God? Yes, there is a world of difference. That common grace reveals God to them, but they lack special saving grace, otherwise they would be saved too.

 

[ConsumedByHisCall]

but suppress the truth in unrighteousness not giving credit where it is due.

I agree, but you said, "What really amazes me is how anyone given the choice would actually choose to go to hell." And I'm showing you how someone knows the truth yet chooses to suppress it, condemning themselves. This verse shows that they KNEW God's punishment yet still made this choice, something you think isn't possible.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I agree, but you said, "What really amazes me is how anyone given the choice would actually choose to go to hell." And I'm showing you how someone knows the truth yet chooses to suppress it, condemning themselves. This verse shows that they KNEW God's punishment yet still made this choice, something you think isn't possible.

Where does it read they made the choice? Quote please.

 

[cygnusx1]

who ever asked God for Prevenient Grace ? Is it right He "forces" it on every one ?

If yes , then OK He is quite right to "force" Saving Grace on anyone.

 

[Jpark]

It is argued that God is love

God is love to. Just as Jesus is the source of eternal salvation to those who obey Him (Heb. 5:9) and they will be resurrected to life, God is love to those who obey Him.

God is wrath to the disobedient (John 3:36; Eph. 2:3; 1 Thess. 5:9) and they will be resurrected to judgment.

 

[cygnusx1]

Contrary to your assumption, I propose the "sinners" audience of James 4, are actually Christians. It is an exhortation for Christians to humble themselves before the Lord (not man). Part of the context for what I propose is where James uses the phrase "double-minded". He is addressing worldly Christians. Also in verse 11 of Chapter 4 James say's "Do not speak evil of one another, brethren." Notice here James uses the word "brethren", this context further supports that the intended audience is to Christians. And the reason James wrote these things is because they were saying and doing those things contrary to the the Lordship of Christ. Finally, we should not confuse the monergism of salvation with the synergism of sanctification. Doing so will lead us to wrong conclusions.

Amen bro , it seems some cannot be bothered to look at context , a unregenerate man , according to some , has no less ability than a regenerate.

 

[heymikey80]

who ever asked God for Prevenient Grace ? Is it right He "forces" it on every one ?

If yes , then OK He is quite right to "force" Saving Grace on anyone.

(And why would it be called prevenient if someone already asked for it?)

 

[ConsumedByHisCall]

Where does it read they made the choice? Quote please.

They traded the truth in for a lie. Even Calvinist's argue that men make a choice, they just argue that the choice is "according to the greatest desire" and the nature of the man being totally depraved will always desire evil and thus CHOOSE it.

So, certainly you are not denying that they made a choice, are you?

 

[heymikey80]

If all we're looking for are the fully-aware and self-declaredly rebellious people against God, then Paul's left out the vast majority of people in the world. Yet Paul claims to have included far more people.

Is Romans 1-3 reduced to just these two groups of people: the self-aware rebels and the self-righteous failures? Is it that the rest -- the majority of people -- aren't even mentioned? Why then say "the whole world becomes accountable to God" when it's not?

 

[ConsumedByHisCall]

What do you mean it's not? I'm saying the world is accountable because they all do know.

 

[cygnusx1]

They traded the truth in for a lie. Even Calvinist's argue that men make a choice, they just argue that the choice is "according to the greatest desire" and the nature of the man being totally depraved will always desire evil and thus CHOOSE it.

So, certainly you are not denying that they made a choice, are you?

God can change any mind , the will follows the mind , the root cause is a rotten heart , else why would man need regeneration .

Of course men traded the truth for a lie in Eden and over the course of history moved into idolatry , sin brings captivity .

I fail to see how you can deny men always will desire evil except for Grace , the only difference is a Calvinist has good reason to say such he can see the results of scriptures teaching every day , the prevenient grace defenders also think man is unable (hence the need for grace) to respond unless grace is upon them , but this operation of grace is mostly inefficient and even when it does work , it is only by human willingness which kind of begs the question why it was ever needed if man could turn and then feel the benefits of this "Prevenient grace" , it's looking more and more like POST-grace to me !