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The House of Israel and The House of Judah

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by n2thelight, Jul 2, 2014.

  1. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    The holy city, New Jerusalem is identified in the Revelation as the bride of Christ:

    "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God," -- Rev 21:9-10

    The holy city, New Jerusalem is identified in the Hebrews as the Church:

    "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant . . ." -- Heb 12:22-24

    Therefore, the bride of Christ is the Church, regardless of what Ephesians 5 says.

    Now, Ephesians 5 says that Christ is the head of the Church; and that Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it. The last clause was my point: that Christ died for the church.

    But in both cases, and in others in Eph 5, Paul uses the analogy of the marriage of the man and woman to emphasize that we should treat our wives as Christ treats his wife.

    It is worth mentioning at this time that I never seem to know what your point it.

    :)
    .
     
  2. Danoh

    Danoh Newbie

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    Lol - you're not the first.

    Then, again, I don't divide Scripture between OT and NT, but between God's Prophesied Purpose [Gen. - Early Acts, and HEBREWS - Rev.] and His Kept Secret Purpose: Rom. - Phil.
     
  3. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    Even that makes no sense. To help me understand where you are coming from, how do you interpret these verses?

    "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." -- Luke 16:16

    "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." -- John 8:24

    "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." -- Luke 21:22


    :)
    .
     
  4. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    Revelation 21:2,9,10 means that the physical structure of the literal city of New Jerusalem is a picture of the church. Something can be literal and at the same time symbolically picture something else, like how in Matthew 21:19, the fig tree was literal and at the same time its being without fruit symbolically pictured unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel being without fruit (Matthew 21:43).

    Just as New Jerusalem's literal wall foundations have the names of the 12 apostles on them (Revelation 21:14), so the church's foundation is the apostles (Ephesians 2:20). And just as New Jerusalem's literal pearly gates have the names of Israel's 12 tribes on them (Revelation 21:12,21), so the church consists of Israel's 12 tribes.

    For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

    New Jerusalem is a literal city, 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Revelation 21:21). It is God the Father's house in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3, cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b,4, Revelation 2:7b, Revelation 22:2,14), in which house Jesus left to prepare a place for the church (John 14:2). All those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and which only the church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant death on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), the very heart of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    The church looks for Jesus' return from heaven (Philippians 3:20), and the setting up of his physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). New Jerusalem won't descend from the 3rd heaven to the earth until after a new earth (a new surface of the earth) has been created (Revelation 21:1-4), sometime after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). The church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). The Father and Jesus themselves will be the only temple in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22).
     
  5. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    "so the church consists of Israel's 12 tribes." That's not literal, so your post is rather irrational. You are making figures of speech both coming and going, both directions, which can't work. If you had said Israel's 12 tribes (an actual artefact) was the church, you would have been consistent.
     
  6. n2thelight

    n2thelight Guest

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    Israel has always been the Church,the gentiles were grafted in...

    Do a word search on what Gentile actually means in scripture

    http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Documents/Thewordgentile.html

    A Study into the Meaning of the Word Gentile as Used in Scripture


    A great deal of confusion and misunderstanding has been caused by the use of the word "gentile" in the English translation of the Bible. Let us take up a brief study of it. It should always be remembered that foreign languages often lose the strength of their meaning through translation. Then it should also be remembered that some words have many meanings.
    Take the word man as an illustration. Generically speaking it means mankind generally, both men and women. But if it is used in the same sentence with the word woman, it means the male of the species. If it is used in the same sentence with the word boy it means the mature of the species. Thus the word man has three meanings, the meaning of the word being determined by its use in the context.

    Now the word gentile is a translation of the Hebrew word goi (singular) and goyim (plural) and the Greek word ethnos (singular) and ethne (plural). Using the word gentile to translate these words is often misleading because it is a misapplication of the Hebrew and Greek words as used in the Bible. The modern use of the word has come to mean non-Yahudi or non-Israel, but that meaning cannot be maintained in the face of the evidence I will present in this study.

    The Hebrew word goi is a collective noun meaning nation or sometimes a collective body of people. But it has been translated into English may different ways. The word occurs 557 times in the Old Testament. The Authorized Version of the Bible translates it gentile 30 times; heathen 142 times; nation 373 times; people 11 times; another once. But the American Standard Version cuts the occurrence of gentile from 30 to 9 times, and then shows in the footnotes of 5 of those 9 times that the word nations should have been used.

    Of course the word nation is not always an exact equivalent term because there is too much of the political significance attached to it. But it is much better than the word gentile and some of our best translators prefer the word nations. This is also shown by the way the Revised Version eliminates the word gentiles.

    The same thing is true of the Greek word ethnos. It occurs 164 times in the New Testament. In the Authorized Version it is translated gentiles 93 times; heathen 5 times; nation or nations 64 times; and people twice. In the American Standard Revised Version it is gentiles 96 times in the text and 7 times in the footnotes, making 103 occurrences altogether. But in the footnotes it is corrected 15 times to read nations, making the final count 88. So not only the Hebrew word goi but also the Greek word ethnos has been translated to read nations more than any other word.

    Though the word gentiles and the word heathen are used many times in the Bible, we must face the facts that there are no Hebrew or Greek words that would demand this translation.
    If the reader will consult a good dictionary, you will find that the word gentile is derived from the Latin word gentilis and properly understood means non-something. As used by a Yahudi or an Israelite it would mean non-Yahudim or non-Israelite. But they are not the only people who have a right to use the word.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2014
  7. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    N2light,
    Let's not get things cluttered up here: the nation / ethnos of Israel has not always been the church / believers, but some of them have been.

    Rom 9-11 is about clearing up the misconception that God moves automatically for or against an ethnos. He does not. He responds to faith, so to speak. His word has not failed because it was to those who have faith all along. it never was to the ethnos.
     
  8. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    n2thelight, what's your point? Gentiles where always allowed in! God made that clear when He instituted the Passover, in Exodus 12:43-49:
    43 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover: no foreigner is to eat of it;
    44 but every man’s slave purchased with money, after you have circumcised him, then he may eat of it.
    45 A sojourner or a hired servant shall not eat of it.
    46 It is to be eaten in a single house; you are not to bring forth any of the flesh outside of the house, nor are you to break any bone of it.
    47 All the congregation of Israel are to celebrate this.
    48 But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it.
    49 The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you.”


    How does Rahab and Ruth get into the genealogy of Christ??? They became part of Israel!!! All a Gentile had to do is partake of the Passover and the were considered AS ON BORN IN THE LAND. If they were male THEY HAD TO BE CIRCUMCISED...the mark of the covenant that promised CHRIST!!!

    Why do you think the New Testament speaks to "the circumcision of the heart"??? They reach back to Deuteronomy 10:16:
    16 So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer.

    :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2014
  9. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Zechariah 8:2-23 Again, the word of the Lord came to me; I am very jealous for Zion, I am burning with jealousy for her. This is what the Lord says; I will return to Zion and dwell in Jerusalem, it will be called the City of Faithfulness and the Temple mount will be called the Holy Mountain.
    This is what the Lord Almighty says; Once again old people and children will inhabit the streets of Jerusalem. Even if this may seem impossible to the remnant of this nation, will it be impossible for Me?
    I am about to rescue My people from countries in the East and West and bring them back to live in Jerusalem. They will be My people and I shall be their God, in faithfulness and justice.
    These are the words of the Lord of Hosts; Take heart, all you who now hear that the Temple is to be rebuilt as the prophets foretold. Before that time, there was no hiring of man or beast, because of your enemies, for I had set every man against his neighbour. But, I do not feel the same toward the remnant of this people as I did in former days, says the Lord of Hosts. For they will sow in safety, I will give them rain and the Land will yield it’s produce. This is the inheritance of My people. To the nations you, House of Judah and House of Israel, have become as a curse; now I shall save you – you will become proverbial as a blessing. Courage, do not lose heart!
    These are the words of the Lord; Just as I determined to bring disaster on you when your forefathers made Me angry, so I have resolved to do good again to Jerusalem and Judah. Do not be afraid. This is what you must do; speak the truth to each other and administer true justice in your courts. Do not plot evil and do not love perjury, for all these I hate. This is the word of the Lord.
    These are the words of the Lord; Keep the fasts of the 4th, 5th, 7th and 10th months. They will be festivals of joy for Judah. Love truth and peace. In future, nations and peoples will come to Jerusalem to entreat the favour of the Lord. In those days, 10 people from every nation will take hold of a Jew and say; Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.

    Ref; REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.

    ‘I am about to rescue My people…they will be My people and I will be their God’. Rescue? Ezekiel 36:11-16 Now I shall take thought for My sheep…I will rescue them from wherever they are scattered in the Day of cloud and darkness. I shall bring them home, to their own Land and make them prosper. Isaiah 60:4, Jer. 31:1-6, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Amos 9:14
    ‘the Day of cloud and darkness’, is the Day of the Lord’s wrath, a CME sunstrike that will de-populate the entire holy Land area, also causing worldwide devastation of fires and storms.
    ‘I have set every man against his neighbour’. This is the current situation in the Middle East.
    ‘Courage, do not lose heart’. This proves that we must pass through the terrible testing and trials of the forthcoming Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. A literal Day of fire from the sky, of earthquakes, storm winds and tsunamis. It will be a period of ‘cloud and darkness’, from the smoke and ash clouds that will envelope the earth. Zeph. 1:15, Matt.24:29,Joel 2:1-2
    ‘Peoples will come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord, in the new Temple’. From the context of this quote and from other prophesies, it is clear that this will happen before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial, worldwide reign. Ezekiel 43:4…the Shekinah Glory of God will come into the Temple by the East gate. And even though verse 23 mentions a Jew, as one who enjoys the Lord’s favour, we know from verse 13 and many other prophesies that peoples from every nation and language, Rev. 7:9, will become citizens of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, the new nation formed after the judgement/punishment of fire has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East. Deut. 32:42, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Isaiah 17:1, Amos 1:2-15
     
  10. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    There are lots of contexts here Keras in these passages, but apparently you bypass how the NT does things with these and similar passages. That needs to get sorted out. There are many examples that these are fulfilled in Christ and his mission (the building, living temple).

    There is no need to go over any particular one unless the mentality of the NT is understood.
     
  11. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    The New Testament is a book designed to inform and encourage humankind during the long period of the Church age. It does not generally supersede or abrogate the Old Testament.
    I do not 'bypass the N.T'., as you can see by the verses I quote.
    Yes, Christ's mission then, was to establish 'living temples', [our bodies] and a 'spiritual Kingdom', for this time. We pray for 'Your kingdom to come on earth, as it is heaven'. That this prayer will be answered, is a given. But to know what must happen before that glorious era, then we get most of our last days information from the OT and it is confirmed, expanded upon plus a sequence of events is given in Revelation of the NT.

    IP, I am a bit of a history buff, I read books like 'the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' and 'Josephus' for pleasure, so I know what has been fulfilled in the prophesies. Re post #49 above, NONE of that is fulfilled. Yes J,lem is populated, I have been there, but are they 'My people and is He their God'? No, and there must come a reckoning before Jesus comes again.
    This information is what the all the Prophetic Word tells us, ignore it at your peril.
     
  12. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Keras,
    the only sense of the NT 'abrogating' the OT is that it brings it back to what it was originally about! So it abrogates a misunderstood OT, in the same sense (exactly) that Paul corrected people who only knew/met Christ 'kata sarka.' You must acknowledge this distinction! You can't go do the OT on its own. After Paul says that in 2 Cor 5, he goes on with such sweeping things as 'today is the day of God's favor' from Isaiah.

    If you go back to find things like that from Isaiah, you are going to end up with a pile or list of "literal" things that "are not yet fulfilled". But that would be to miss the picture majorly. Paul said the Christ event was the fufilling force. It is what happened in Christ at the cross for justification that fulfills it all, promises, destiny, heritage.

    That's why Acts 13's sermon has the force it does. It fulfills it all. Then you have feed back from those in Judaism, and Paul shuts them all down, saying, the fulfillment of being a light to the nations is to be in Christ's light! (v47).

    Those a just a few of the examples of not reading the OT 'kata sarka' (worldly, ordinary, flesh).

    the OT is never confirmed the way futurists do; they just pursue it on their own.

    btw, the temple of Eph 2 is not an individual believer; it is the whole Christian movement; it is the new temple for it is in Christ. Likewise, the new creation of 2 Cor 5 is not us individually; it is us in Christ the new creation (the grammar supports this as a name for him in that passage, not something we have happen to us).
     
  13. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Isaiah 57:1-2 The righteous perish and no one is concerned, those loyal to their faith are persecuted; they achieve peace at last on their deathbed.
    Isaiah 57:3-11 Come near, you children of sin; spawn of a lie. You practice idolatry, desert your Maker and make bargains with men. You don’t think that your plight is desperate, because now, you have renewed vigour, you do not worry about your future. As the Lord kept silent and looked away, so you don’t fear Him, don’t remember Him or give Him a thought.
    Isaiah 57:12-15 Now I shall expose your conduct, that what you think is right. Your idols will not help you; when disaster comes, your strength will vanish.
    But he who puts his trust in Me will possess the Land and inherit My holy Place. Then the Lord will say: Prepare the way for My people, let them come to the Place of My dwelling. I will revive the spirit of the humble and the courage of the disheartened.


    Isaiah 57:16-19 I shall not always be accusing, I shall not keep My wrath forever, or else the spirit of mankind would fail because of Me. For a short time, I was angry with My people, I withdrew My favour from Israel because of their sins. Despite their conduct, I will heal them and give them relief and comfort. Those who mourn for Israel will then praise Me, as I heal and save them. There will be peace for all, both far and near. Reference: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.


    ‘the righteous perish’ - the persecution of Christians now and throughout the ages. Matthew 23:35, Revelation 6:9
    ‘you practice idolatry - The apostate and atheistic peoples of today have no idea that their judgement is coming. Ezekiel 20:39, Romans 2:9
    ‘renewed strength’- The descendants of Jacob today, in the Western nations, have become numerous, rich and powerful, so they no longer ‘give the Lord a thought’.
    ‘when disaster comes, your strength will vanish’ - the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath. Isaiah 17:4-6 The military powers of the world will be destroyed or neutralized by this judgement against the Lord’s enemies, which will ‘prepare the way’, for the return to the holy Land of My people. Jeremiah 31:21, Isaiah 43:5-7, Ezekiel 20:34-38
    The punishment and exile of Israel and Judah is for a decreed time; ‘a short time’, to the Lord. Now, as that term of exile nears completion, we look forward to ‘relief and comfort’ and ‘peace for all’, in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 37:26

    Isaiah 57:20-21 But the godless are like a storm tossed sea, like waters full of mud and rubbish. There is no peace for the wicked, says the Lord. Ezekiel 18:20
     
  14. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Keras quoted:
    the descendants of Jacob today, in the Western nations,

    What on earth is this supposed to mean?
     
  15. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    You read history and know something about anthropology?
    Where did the Caucasian peoples originate? The Western nations origins.
    But did they just 'spring out of the ground' or did they come from elsewhere?
    Are God's promises to Jacobs descendants never to be fulfilled?

    Are you so wrapped in the NT teachings of personal salvation, that you fail to see the big picture? How God chose a man, then his descendants to be a people who will 'be a light to the nations and display My glory'. This has not happened as yet, but it will and very soon.
     
  16. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    It is personal and cosmic at the same time. Don't you read Romans? 2 Cor 3-5? God was in Christ reconciling the debt of sin of the whole world. Or Acts 13: the resurrection proves the promises to israel are fulfilled because justification from our sins was provided.

    Funny you'd quote the 'light to the nations' thing when that is about MISSION. It was already interp'd by the apostles in Acts 13:47 (Acts 13 has a LOT). That is the indicator of a mission and the official use of that Isaiahnic phrase. But futurists don't need or care what the NT says; they are anointed to handle the OT directly.

    What do you think would be proved or has been proved by israel being back in its land? Do you have doubts about God's existence yourself that you "need" things like that? If you believe it helps, why do not think the DofJ helps? A good expounding of what happened there by P. Holford saved England from the atheism of T. Payne in 1805.
     
  17. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    In case you're worried about "softening" the message: the day of the judgement of God is coming upon all mankind. The day of wrath will spare no one who does not have the righteousness of Christ himself. It will come upon all nations, races, genders. The standard of God's judgement will be his commands, which everyone knows in their conscience, because we are all created with the belief in personal property and ownership. All have stolen from God what is his or from our neighbor. So there will be no exceptions or variations, and there is no salvation for any man unless they believe that Christ alone lived, suffered and died in their place.

    So I wouldn't go barking around here about how some of us are ruining the message of the Gospel or of the judgement day of God. I spend quite a bit more time in Romans than Ezekiel.
     
  18. n2thelight

    n2thelight Guest

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    Amen k

    We are the light of the world,and we are those who have spread the Gospel...

    Only thing left to happen,is for the two houses to be joined back together....
     
  19. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    N2Light,
    there is no category personal salvation as though it was not cosmic at the same time. It is extremely strange that Keras would do this about the Isiainic 'a light the world' when that is exactly what Paul was saying happens in Christ (the messenger takes on the same role as Christ) in Act 13's sermon follow up, v47. So he has missed this.

    There is no waiting around for the two houses or what ever. That is never mentioned in the NT. The 'all Israel' of Rom 11 is simply all those down through time who had true faith. It is not a prediction of something to happen in Israel in modern times, because 'saved' means the personal change, the new covenant and the taking away of debt that was in the Gospel.
     
  20. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    You are a tough nut, Interplanner, blinded by a NT only philosophy.
    We point out the many OT verses that say how God chose a people to be the example of the right way to live. They failed in that task, God rejected them and exiled them among the nations. But rejection does not last forever; Lam. 3:31, and lots of prophesies say how they will be gathered again and will live in all of the holy Land in peace and security, at last 'being a light to the nations'.
    The current State of Israel is far from that, so we await the: soon to happen event that will change the world to enable the great Second Exodus of all the true, righteous Israelite people, be they descendants of Jacob or grafted in.
     
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