The Hope of Creation

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Patmosman_sga

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For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. [19] For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. [20] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope [21] that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. [22] For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. [23] And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. [24] For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? [25] But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
(Romans 8:18-25, ESV)



Paul’s vision of a creation “set free from its bondage to decay” is pivotal in developing a holistic understanding of the Church’s eschatological hope. Unfortunately, the Church, from its earliest beginnings, has never been able to arrive at a consensual understanding of the above passage. The Church Fathers were woefully inconsistent in their interpretation of “the creation.” Explanations range from “the creation itself, having been restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.32.1) to nothing more than “the human race” (Augustine, On Romans, 53). The anonymous writer known as Pseudo-Constantius, in a work entitled The Holy Letter of St. Paul to the Romans, ran the gamut from “the rational creation and not, as some think, the irrational or insensible creation which was made in order to serve man and which afterward will perish” to “Adam and Eve, who are waiting to receive adoption by God” to “all the righteous from Adam and Eve up to the time of Christ.”

The key to unlocking the mystery lies in recognizing Paul’s acknowledgment, consistent with other New Testament writers following Old Testament precedent, that eschatological salvation is three-dimensional: individual, corporate and cosmic.

From his own personal perspective, Paul understands that he, as a servant of Jesus Christ, will endure “the sufferings of this present time” in order that he might be conformed to the image of Christ. At the same time, he encourages others who suffer with him, for the Church, as the Body of Christ, suffers as one as her members endure the tribulation of “this present time.” But such suffering and tribulation also involves “the whole creation.” In other words, no one individual suffers alone; neither does the Church, as a body, suffer alone; indeed, all of God’s creation is longing for liberation. So there is some merit to those interpretations which see “the creation” as limited to “the human race” and “the righteous.” However, the context of this passage demands that we also consider the cosmic dimension of eschatological salvation. For Paul says only a few verses later:


For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, [39] nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 8:38-39, ESV)



Obviously, Paul would intend to include much more than just “the human race” or “the righteous” in his understanding of “all creation.” But just how much should we include in “the whole creation?”

A common mistake in New Testament interpretation is the assumption that some, if not all, of the mysteries revealed therein were not, in fact, already hidden in the Old Testament. This amounts to a subtle form of Marcionism and ultimately results in an “anything goes” approach to exegesis, being influenced, overtly or covertly, by a myriad of human traditions which have sprung up over the centuries and do not allow the Word of God to speak for itself. Thus, when Paul mentions “the whole creation,” many readers miss what should be the natural connotation, namely the creation account in Genesis 1. The opening words of the Old Testament leave no doubt as to what is meant by “the whole creation.”


In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
(Genesis 1:1, ESV)



The careful reader will notice that “the heavens and the earth” which God created “in the beginning” are “subjected to futility” almost from the start. For God spends the first four days of creation separating light from darkness, the waters above and the waters below, land from sea, and day from night. Before any “living creature” can appear, these boundaries must be set in place, otherwise the earth would have remained formless and empty, in total darkness. Yet, throughout the whole process of creating and separating, God is constantly declaring everything “good.” As long as “the Spirit of God” hovers over “the face of the waters,” overseeing the whole process of creation, all things finally turn out “good.” Is this not, in fact, what Paul is reiterating when he writes:

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. [27] And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. [28] And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. [29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(Romans 8:26-30, ESV)

It can thus be concluded, then, that Paul’s reference to “the whole creation” means “the heavens and the earth” and all contained therein; and when he says “the creation will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God,” he has in mind the same thing as Peter. . .

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
[11] Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, [12] waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! [13] But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
(2 Peter 3:10-13, ESV)



. . . and John

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. [2] And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [3] And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. [4] He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
(Revelation 21:1-4, ESV)



For “the creation” to “be set free from its bondage to decay” means it will be restored to its original splendor, “the former things,” those “sufferings of this present time,” having “passed away.” All this God has accomplished, is accomplishing and will accomplish in Christ through the work of his Spirit overseeing all of creation, and especially the the lives of each and every one of his people. The Church embodies the hope of “the whole creation.” Through “lives of holiness and godliness,” showing forth the very presence of Christ in the midst of “the sufferings of the present time,” God’s people hasten the day when “the creation itself” will “be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.” Through her witness, the Church makes real, in the midst of a world of suffering and sorrow, “a new heaven and a new earth” even now. Amidst toil and tribulation, under the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, she perseveres to the very end.
 

Codger

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Dear Patmosman,

Good post...

It is popular today to craft our Eschatology from some degree of literalism or hyper literalism taken from apocalyptic books of the Bible like Daniel or Revelation. These books are mostly symbolic in my mind and take a lot of interpretation. An interpretation that ends up having to invent three and four comings of Christ and a complicated series of speculative events to make itself work pseudo logically - not so.

However, the basic pattern of end times events are outlined in a book that is not apocalyptic at all and is stated in very plain language - as you have already quoted in your post...

2 Peter 3:9-14 (KJV)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. [10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, [12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? [13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. [14] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

As far as I can tell there are only two advents - Bethlehem and a future second coming. I do not see a third or fourth coming anywhere in scripture. A second coming followed by the renewing of the earth. Its pretty simple actually. And this brings us to the great hope of the Christian which is the New heavens and the new earth and a new uncorruptible body all of which will exist forever.


Labels - Amill - Partial Preterist,

Larry

 
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vunderbar

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Larry,

Your "labels" say "Amill - Partial Preterist." But then you say "I do not see a third or fourth coming anywhere in scripture."

Apparently you do not believe the Lord "returned" (invisibly) in "judgement" at 70 A.D.?

R.C. Sproul says: "While partial preterists acknowledge that in the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 there was a parousia or coming of Christ, they maintain that it was not the parousia. That is, the coming of Christ in A.D. 70 was a coming in judgement on the Jewish nation, indicating the end of the Jewish age and the fulfillment of a day of the Lord. Jesus really did come in judgement at this time, fulfilling his prophecy in the Olivet Discourse. But this was not the final or ultimate coming of Christ. The parousia, in its fullness, will extend far beyond the Jewish nation and will be universal in its scope and significance. It will come, not at the end of the Jewish age, but at the end of human history as we know it. It will be, not merely a day of the Lord, but the final and ultimate day of the Lord." - R.C. Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus, p.158, emphasis in original.

-Tim
 
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Pericles

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vunderbar said:
Larry,

Your "labels" say "Amill - Partial Preterist." But then you say "I do not see a third or fourth coming anywhere in scripture."

Apparently you do not believe the Lord "returned" (invisibly) in "judgement" at 70 A.D.?

-Tim
Hehehe....now THERE is a question for them partial folk...
 
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Hitch

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Larry,

Your "labels" say "Amill - Partial Preterist." But then you say "I do not see a third or fourth coming anywhere in scripture."

Apparently you do not believe the Lord "returned" (invisibly) in "judgement" at 70 A.D.?



The connection escapes me.

Would it also be said then that Crist did not 'appear' on the Mountain? Or at the Red Sea?

It really doesnt take much to notice a difference between a visible and fleshly 'coming' as in the Nativty and the coming to Soddom,,,does it?

Hitch
 
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Codger

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Pericles said:
Pericles said:
Will this incorruptible body be made of physical flesh and blood?


Dear, Pericles

I am puzzled as to why you asked this question -, as it is very obvious that you are very knowledgeable of the Word; but I will proceed anyway.

The answer is...

1 Cor. 15:50-57 (NASB)

Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. [51] Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. [53] For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. [54] But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. [55] "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" [56] The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; [57] but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

My question is...

How many different dimensions of spiritual existence are there in the Bible? I guess I basically see three.

  1. Human – comprised of spirit (eternal) soul (an interface of the spirit and the body) – and the body which is the physical, visible, molecular, and temporal part of our present existence.
  2. Spiritual – the disembodied dead – both in heaven and those separated from God in other places. Beings can exist in just the spiritual dimension without any kind of body or interfacing Soul or personality.
  3. Eternal – like the Angels - who also seem to have a spirit, soul, and eternal incorruptible non-molecular body. Their bodies are made of an incorruptible substance of another dimension. They also seem to be able to appear and disappear at will - as the Resurrected Jesus did - as well as to change shapes. Angels walk among us unawares. To do so they have to look like us – right? Perhaps the Bible version of the original shape shifters in science fiction. Like Deep Space Nine and TNG (Star Trek – Paramount Pictures)
Where does this new body that the scriptures speak about for the believers fit into the known scheme of dimensions? It seems to be the same kind of body or dimension as the Angels have – don’t you think. How many different levels of existence are there? Seems to be three – are there more?

Larry

 
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Patmosman_sga

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Our resurrection body will be the same body we now have, though transformed out of its "natural" inclination (disobedience) to its "spiritual" inclination (obedience). That doesn't mean, however, that it will look the same as it does in its present state. What we see now is the perishable "seed." The "stalk," which springs forth from the "seed," is imperishable.

In what would seem to be a rather crude way, resurrection is prefigured in circumcision. The "old flesh" is cast off and the "new flesh," which was already there but obscured by the "old flesh," is revealed.
 
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Pericles

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Patmosman_sga said:
In what would seem to be a rather crude way, resurrection is prefigured in circumcision. The "old flesh" is cast off and the "new flesh," which was already there but obscured by the "old flesh," is revealed.
Patmosman_sga, in your opinion is "the resurrection from the dead" a constitual, critical element of the Jewish Law and Prophets?
 
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Pericles

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Larry,

Thanks for the kind reply. I am still a bit confused as to how this new body will be. In John 5:24, Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life"

Now, the questions for you are:

1. Did you hear Christ's word, and
2. Did you believe Him who sent Christ?

If you answered yes to both questions, you already have eternal life, per the verse quoted. This is not rocket science, but it looks like you are complicating resurrection info a very confusing process that makes no sense. My confusion if further amplified by your list of various levels of bodies. Many use the "resurrected body of Christ" as an example of how our own resurrected bodies will be. This is a misconstrued paradigm, based on the assumption that before His resurrection, Jesus could not pass through walls, disappear at will, glow in the dark, or change shapes?! The truth is that of course, he could do all these things AND MORE! He was God wasn't he? Even Phillip performs a disappearing acts in Acts 8 while he was in his normal physical body. This throws off your presumptions that:

a. believers need new physical bodies in order to be perfect.
b. believers need new physical bodies to have eternal life
c. believers are not back from the dead until they get new physical bodies.

Paul's statement quoted by you is being demonstrated every time I go attend church services. Guess what? I see people coming back to life, putting on immortality into their physical bodies, walking away alive and renewed both in spirit and flesh.

I don't know about you, but I can confidently say, "Death has been swallowed up in victory! Oh death, where is your victory? Oh death, where is your sting? The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law, but thanks be to God who gives us victory through our Lord Jesus Christ"

Yes, thanks be to God for destroying the Jewish Law (which gave power to sin) and bringing us back from the dead.
 
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Codger

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vunderbar said:
Larry,

Your "labels" say "Amill - Partial Preterist." But then you say "I do not see a third or fourth coming anywhere in scripture."

Apparently you do not believe the Lord "returned" (invisibly) in "judgement" at 70 A.D.?

-Tim
Dear Tim, Pericles, and Hitch,

I must say you guys are really sharp and knowledgeable. Thank you for pointing out my weaknesses in communication. But remember that the message always belongs to the writer - not the reader, who may have to interpret my post. But you were right in questioning it of course. But always remember that I esteem you all very highly even if we have disagreements of doctrine. If our doctrines all have to be correct to inherit eternal life - we would all be lost - so we live continually in the grace of God.

I guess in my own mind I tend to think of literal physical comings when I spoke of comings, but agree that there are visitations, which I guess are a kind of coming too. I do agree with Sproul as to what was posted.

The comings that I was referring to were comings, which were or will be physical and literal historical events. Events, which are obvious and beyond question. For example the first coming at Bethlehem - any problem there? The end time physical coming where the people of God will be extricated and the world is renewed - agree on this? How about the Dispensationalists "secret" coming where around a billion people disappear - an obvious "coming" don't you think because of the physical ramifications?

As far as God coming in Judgment like in the case of the fall of Jerusalem - you are still arguing about this so it is certainly not obvious - is it? As far as God coming in Judgment - I think if I knew history better I could point out many places were he visited us over the millennia in Judgment. He brought down Babylon (code name for Rome) as he said he would – didn’t he? Wasn’t that a visitation also?

Another case in point - The Third Reich. Toward the end of WWII - I read that the Nazi regime toward the end of the war couldn't do anything right. They did not put their nuclear program on a high priority because they thought the war would be over before they could develop it. Their scientists, which were working on the project, misinterpreted the results of their nuclear experiments, which delayed their progress. They were very much into the occult and eventually abandoned it because it was not giving them the edge that they had expected. They made a massive blunder from a tactical standpoint in attacking Russia in the wintertime and suffered a huge defeat at their hands. And there are many more I'm sure. I really think it was an answer to prayers that God himself frustrated the plans of the Third Reich, which ultimately caused their defeat because they were really militarily far advanced over any other nation during the 30's and 40's. Another visitation or coming? Probably.

I think history would show a lot of visitations of God, but without any physical evidence that you could point to which would preclude any disagreement or arguments within the Church.

Larry
 
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Hitch

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This is a misconstrued paradigm, based on the assumption that before His resurrection, Jesus could not pass through walls, disappear at will, glow in the dark, or change shapes?! The truth is that of course, he could do all these things AND MORE! He was God wasn't he

Still the miracles recorded are always examples of his moving in the supernatural as opposed to the majority of his time standing as a human being, affected by time ,space and gravity. Followint this logic Godcould not be required to offer Christ's body as a sacrfice,,, 'He was God wasnt he' and certainly he could have made alternative arrangements for our redemption.The reasons he came inthe flesh and did what he did might not be revealed to us even in eternity. The facts of his earthly physical accomplishments ,including resurrection, are not affected by the fact that being God he could have used another method.



Jesus was not raised spiritually as we all must be. And certainly for him to return to the heavenly throne he did not need a physical body at all. Yet God raised him and emptied the tomb. This is apostolicly defined as his crowning and exaltation, of which we are partners according to his grace.

H
 
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Pericles

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Hitch, it appears that Christ's miracles, life, death and resurrection were done in such way so that they illustrate and evidentiate that He WAS indeed God, not just another pseudoprophet. No question, God could have handled our redemption without Christ, leaving the physical realm out of the process completely, but how would one understand that Christ cannot really give life until he himself defeats death?

The whole process makes perfect sense both logically and biblically. It fits perfectly within the framework of the Jewish Law and the prophetic expectations of the Law. While the Law was ENTIRELY physical, only something extreme and radical would make sense - i.e. a covenantal switch to a spiritual king, spiritual temple, spiritual people, spiritual Jerusalem, spiritual harvest...and at last, but not least spiritual LIFE. :)

To insert a "new physical body" for all believers in this process would indicate what dispensationalism still claims, which is that something is inherently wrong with our physical bodies.
 
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Wills

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Pericles said:
Even Phillip performs a disappearing acts in Acts 8 while he was in his normal physical body. This throws off your presumptions that:

a. believers need new physical bodies in order to be perfect.
b. believers need new physical bodies to have eternal life
c. believers are not back from the dead until they get new physical bodies.

Paul's statement quoted by you is being demonstrated every time I go attend church services. Guess what? I see people coming back to life, putting on immortality into their physical bodies, walking away alive and renewed both in spirit and flesh.

To insert a "new physical body" for all believers in this process would indicate what dispensationalism still claims, which is that something is inherently wrong with our physical bodies.
Why are you being inconsistent? :rolleyes: You claimed in another thread that

humans would not have physical bodies in Christ's kingdom but you are

now espousing the benefits of our physical bodies.

Your words are below. You cannot argue for and at the same time against

the issue of whether humans will have physical bodies in God's presence.

Pericles said:
Will your "glorified" body be a physical body that one can touch, feel, smell..etc? I am a bit confused as to what Christ's body has to do with the nature of His kingdom? He specifically told the disciples that his kingdom "is not of this world", yet some continue to teach that it is a physical kingdom, where a 6 foot tall guy named Jesus will walk on planet earth as the rest of us. How will all of us be in His presence at the same time if Jesus will be in a physical body? .
 
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Pericles

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Wills said:
Why are you being inconsistent? :rolleyes: You claimed in another thread that

humans would not have physical bodies in Christ's kingdom but you are

now espousing the benefits of our physical bodies.

Your words are below. You cannot argue for and at the same time against

the issue of whether humans will have physical bodies in God's presence.

[/font]
Uh? Is this a way for you to avoid the issues I am raising? I believe Christ's kingdom is a spiritual kingdom, which exists today, at this very moment. Where are you reading what you claimed in my words?

You didn't address any of my initial points whatsoever...
 
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Hitch

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Pericles said:
Hitch, it appears that Christ's miracles, life, death and resurrection were done in such way so that they illustrate and evidentiate that He WAS indeed God, not just another pseudoprophet. No question, God could have handled our redemption without Christ, leaving the physical realm out of the process completely, but how would one understand that Christ cannot really give life until he himself defeats death?

The whole process makes perfect sense both logically and biblically. It fits perfectly within the framework of the Jewish Law and the prophetic expectations of the Law. While the Law was ENTIRELY physical, only something extreme and radical would make sense - i.e. a covenantal switch to a spiritual king, spiritual temple, spiritual people, spiritual Jerusalem, spiritual harvest...and at last, but not least spiritual LIFE. :)

To insert a "new physical body" for all believers in this process would indicate what dispensationalism still claims, which is that something is inherently wrong with our physical bodies.
Yes Perc our physical bodies wear out.


Its not like you to make such untidy claims .

but how would one understand that Christ cannot really give life until he himself defeats death?

On the one hand this converssation proves that we really dont understand it very well anyway. On the other hand Jesus life death and resurrection are all things we are granted partnership in. As you pointed out we have eternal life, and the NT if full of teachings of the glory of having part in sufferring for the gospel and our royal adoption proves we are fellow hiers in the crowning of Christ and that is resurrection.


While the Law was ENTIRELY physical,

Love the Lord thy God,,love thy nieghbor??? And Paul's characterization of thelaw as 'spiritual'?


To insert a "new physical body" for all believers in this process would indicate what dispensationalism still claims, which is that something is inherently wrong with our physical bodies.[/

well Im no friend of DF thought Perc but itmakes no sense to try and align any problems real or imagined with totall physical resurrection with DF theology as though general resurrection had not been universially received by the church for 2,000 years.

Take care

Hitch
 
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