puddleglum3

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Isaiah had a vision in which he saw the Seraphim praising God for his holiness.

In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory!”
Isaiah 6:1-3 ESV
John later saw the same thing.

And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind: the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle in flight. And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say,
“Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!”

Revelation 4:6-8 ESV
The seraphim were praising God’s holiness in 740 BC when Isaiah had his vision. They were doing it when John was taken to Heaven in about AD 90. As far as we know they are doing the same thing today. This suggests that holiness is God’s most important attribute.

Today we hear more about God’s love than about his holiness. Many ask, “If God loves us why doesn’t he just forgive everyone’s sins? Why do we have to put our faith in Christ?” If we only consider God’s love those are legitimate questions. We need to remember that God can’t express love in a way that contradicts his holiness. All sin must be paid for; either the sinner must be punished or the sin must be atoned for with a blood sacrifice.

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Hebrews 9:22 ESV
The only blood that atones for human sin is that of Jesus Christ. His resurrection proves that God has accepted his sacrifice. Whoever puts his faith in Christ is made holy and fit to enter the presence of God; anyone who fails to do this must bear the punishment he deserves.

The holiness of God explains why Hell must be eternal. Anyone who sins against an infinitely holy God deserves eternal punishment.

When Isaiah saw God his first reaction was a consciousness of his own sinfulness.

And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
Isaiah 6:5 ESV
Most people think they live good lives. They are generally aware of areas where they don’t fully measure up to what they know is right, but they don’t think their failures are of vital importance. That is because we are in a state of spiritual darkness where we don’t see things as God sees them. The light of God’s holiness enables us to see ourselves as we really are.

If we want to know God we need to begin by understanding his holiness. Until we see him as holy our understanding of his actions will be flawed.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Hello puddleglum, and welcome to CF, and welcome to TT!

You are certainly right that God is holy. We can agree on that, and the vision of angels continually proclaiming His holiness is an awesome one. Thank you - I can appreciate reading that reminder at this particular moment as I am surrounded by temporary chaos as students begin to get excited in anticipation of summer vacation. :)

Since you are posting in TT, I will say that there are different "theories of Atonement". Also, one does not necessarily prevent another being true as well. Christ as Victor over death has been a central theme, but He is indeed fulfilling a sacrificial role as well.

Our tradition (Orthodoxy) teaches a broad understanding of Christ's sacrifice, and Scripture reflects these various understandings as well. The only thing we would disagree on is that punishment/suffering is the necessary "payment" for sin. This may be why "God is love" appears to be in opposition to seeing Christ's death as necessary, but it is not.

Not sure if that's really where you wanted to go though, and I didn't want to take your thread off topic in the first reply. But I did want to welcome you to the forums! :)
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Hebrew word translated as "holy" is qadesh, meaning "set apart". This seems to indicate the alien-ness or foreign-ness of God, His transcendent other-ness. This also seems to be the principle meaning of the Greek hagios.

However we do not comprehend God in His alien-ness, but in Christ. The Incarnation has made the foreign familiar, the Other has become one of us. We have beheld God, and who He is, and He is the One who empties Himself in love, even to the point of death on the cross.

I think that the idea of holiness must be understood through the Incarnation, and in particular the cross. The Incarnation demands a radically subversive view of God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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joshua 1 9

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“If God loves us why doesn’t he just forgive everyone’s sins?
Because He wants us to Love Him and Love can only be Love if Love is freely given. We choose if we want to Love God or not.

26 “What is written in the Law?” Jesus replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” Luke10
 
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joshua 1 9

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If your definition of holiness begins with "God can't" Perhaps that is a red flag.
There are things that God can not do. For example He can not lie, cheat or steal. That is why Jesus went to Calvery for us.
 
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There are things that God can not do. For example He can not lie, cheat or steal. That is why Jesus went to Calvery for us.
God cannot lie, cheat or steal ..... so because of this, Jesus went to Calvary?

Can you please explain the connection?
 
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Job8

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If we want to know God we need to begin by understanding his holiness. Until we see him as holy our understanding of his actions will be flawed.
Correct. Everything in Scripture begins with God's holiness. The Gospel is based upon that fact, and because God's holiness cannot be divorced from His justice and mercy, God made a perfect provision in Christ to satisfy the demands of His holiness, His righteousness, His grace, His justice and His wrath.
 
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I used to think that holiness was the central characteristic of God. But the more I studied the Bible and more I got to know God love has come to be
the dominate characteristic I see in God. Its clearly in my mind what was going on between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for all eternity before the world
was created. Holiness only comes in once God creates the universe and there there is something that is different, set apart from God.
 
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FireDragon76

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However we do not comprehend God in His alien-ness, but in Christ. The Incarnation has made the foreign familiar, the Other has become one of us. We have beheld God, and who He is, and He is the One who empties Himself in love, even to the point of death on the cross.

That one reminds me of the Orthodox Akathist hymn to Jesus Christ. There are a lot of paradoxical statements in there. But there are a lot of paradoxical statements in general in Eastern theology and spirituality.

I'm a bit baffled myself what holiness has to do with what God can or can't do. That actually seems the opposite of how I think of what holiness means. God's holiness defies all comprehension. So, I don't see how we can say it is at odds with his love, since we cannot fully understand either his holiness or his love.
 
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Sometimes people teach that God cannot look upon sin, or tolerate it in His presence. I always wondered how they explained Satan presenting himself before the throne of God in the book of Job. Not to mention, I'm guessing God is going to be present at the final judgment, which will involve the wicked as well as the righteous.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Isaiah had a vision in which he saw the Seraphim praising God for his holiness.

In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory!”
Isaiah 6:1-3 ESV

John later saw the same thing.

And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind: the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle in flight. And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say,
“Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!”

Revelation 4:6-8 ESV
The seraphim were praising God’s holiness in 740 BC when Isaiah had his vision. They were doing it when John was taken to Heaven in about AD 90. As far as we know they are doing the same thing today. This suggests that holiness is God’s most important attribute.

Today we hear more about God’s love than about his holiness. Many ask, “If God loves us why doesn’t he just forgive everyone’s sins? Why do we have to put our faith in Christ?” If we only consider God’s love those are legitimate questions. We need to remember that God can’t express love in a way that contradicts his holiness. All sin must be paid for; either the sinner must be punished or the sin must be atoned for with a blood sacrifice.

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Hebrews 9:22 ESV
The only blood that atones for human sin is that of Jesus Christ. His resurrection proves that God has accepted his sacrifice. Whoever puts his faith in Christ is made holy and fit to enter the presence of God; anyone who fails to do this must bear the punishment he deserves.

The holiness of God explains why Hell must be eternal. Anyone who sins against an infinitely holy God deserves eternal punishment.

When Isaiah saw God his first reaction was a consciousness of his own sinfulness.

And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
Isaiah 6:5 ESV
Most people think they live good lives. They are generally aware of areas where they don’t fully measure up to what they know is right, but they don’t think their failures are of vital importance. That is because we are in a state of spiritual darkness where we don’t see things as God sees them. The light of God’s holiness enables us to see ourselves as we really are.

If we want to know God we need to begin by understanding his holiness. Until we see him as holy our understanding of his actions will be flawed.

Thanks for posting. You make some excellent points. The days of hell fire and brimstone are long gone, and the "new and improve" message is one of love and acceptance. While love an acceptance are wonderful, and out Lord certainly is loving an accepting, He is also a consuming fire. He is both transcendent and immanent.

I'm the first one to promote grace and gospel, but neither makes sense without judgement and law.
 
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