The history of the origins of Christmas and St. Nicholas

mark kennedy

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Where do you get this from? History records Christians preferring martyrdom to being involved in pagan worship.
Dr. Walter Martin used to discuss it on the Bible Answer Man program. I'm not sure of the details so you may be right about that. I'm not well read on the subject matter, in fact, I've never actually researched the material. Just relating something I've heard for whatever it might be worth.
 
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mark kennedy

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I'm sure that's what you've been told, but all the history is wrong. The cult of Mithras didn't have "great feasts," for example.
I'm likewise, not sure where you are getting your information but at the top of a google search I found this:

The origin of this festivity is presumed to be Mithraic and about 4000 years old. Mithra was the god of light in ancient Iran. The symbol of Mithra is Sun. Iranians used this symbol in their flag for at least the last 2500 years. The period of 17th to 24th of December was the duration of this feast. The 21st of December, which is the solstice of winter, is still celebrated in Iran. (The Origin of Christmas. Faithfreedom.org)
 
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The way I get it the cult of Mithra was very popular in the first and second century, they worshipped a celestial deity. So the solstice had profound sacred meaning they celebrated in great feasts. Christians were joining in the festivities so the church decided to have their own celebration, instead of the rebirth of the sun it was the birth of Christ. People in all cultures have seasonal celebrAtions and winter would be the perfect time for one since you can't do a whole lot else due to the weather The only ligitamant Christian holiday is Easter because it coincides with Passover. Nothing on the calender is sacred but holidays like Christmas have some merit, just beware of the commercialism.
Roman Mithraism was a secretive mystery religion. It had secret initiation rites with no public cult. Mithras was a cthonic deity, with subterranean Mithraea temples, but a Banquet with the Sun motief is very common within them, so had some relation to the mythos. It seems as if Hellenistic astrology was an important aspect and perhaps entailed ascension through the heavenly spheres as devotees passed the various grades of the religion. For this reason, 19th century antiquarians connected it with the increasingly popular cult of Sol Invictus of late Roman times, but there is no Roman source making this connection. Mithras thus has no connection with Sol Invictus or any public cult, beyond conjecture.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I have been reading up on other posts about various subjects and I am wondering about something myself. In the past, I have had questions about Christmas and should we as believers celebrate it. If the case is that we should show our devotion to the Lord and live in holiness by not celebrating a "holy day" with so much paganism in its origins. On the other hand,

I find it curious that there are other denominations and off-shoots of Christianity such as the Jehovah's Witnesses who don't celebrate Christmas because they see it as a worldly holiday. Because of its pagan origins, there is no doubt that Christmas has worldly origins. I have also seen a film and read about the Puritans or the Pilgrims not celebrating Christmas because of their own religious beliefs.

I know that one of the reasons why many in the Church celebrate Christmas is because of Saint Nicholas. Who exactly is Saint Nicholas and was he an Orthodox Saint from Turkey, or a Catholic one from Ireland, I am not so sure? I as also a believer am still in doubt if I should celebrate Christmas, but if there is a Christian origin, what is it? How did a round man wearing red and often times smoking a pipe being ridden by eight reindeer have anything to do with a holy man from the Old World?

My question is, what is the real history behind Christmas, and how does it really correlate with Jesus and the Word of God? Was Christmas ever a holy day considering all of the pagan origins that also still remain to this day? Out of curiosity, btw, would the life of Saint Nicholas correlate at all with the way Christmas is celebrated in the US?
The real story is that Sol Invictus was set up by the Emperor to compete with Christmas, which was celebrated for at least 100 years prior around Dec 25. St Nicholas' tradition came from when, as bishop, one of his flock had 3 daughters, and no money, and whose only recourse was to sell them into sex slavery. St. Nicholas provided, in small money pouches, a dowry for each one of them, preventing that sale.

Forget all about the way we celebrate Christmas today, if you want. I have no problem with that. Away with Christmas trees, wreaths, toys, mistletoe and the rest. Or, if they connect you to the birth of Christ, so be it.
 
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mark kennedy

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Roman Mithraism was a secretive mystery religion. It had secret initiation rites with no public cult. Mithras was a cthonic deity, with subterranean Mithraea temples, but a Banquet with the Sun motief is very common within them, so had some relation to the mythos. It seems as if Hellenistic astrology was an important aspect and perhaps entailed ascension through the heavenly spheres as devotees passed the various grades of the religion. For this reason, 19th century antiquarians connected it with the increasingly popular cult of Sol Invictus of late Roman times, but there is no Roman source making this connection. Mithras thus has no connection with Sol Invictus or any public cult, beyond conjecture.
The only time I actually looked into this was when I was debating doubtingmerel on the Carrier thesis. Apparently the initiating rites had a series of questions at eight levels, each level representing the eight planets. We wouldn't have hardly any of those questions because like you say, it had an exclusive membership, you had to be initiated. The point here being there is no indication that it had anything to do with the sun or stars, just the planets. Still it was a very popular mystery religion, supposedly most Roman soldiers were initiates. Mithra was kind of a warrior figure, fighting some kind of a bull he dragged to a cave and slew, so that might have been part of the appeal.

Constantine was into this I guess and continued to observe this winter celebration. It's safe to assume if that holds to be true that many other Romans were into this. I suspect, even though I'm weak on the details here, that the church simply created an alternative holiday. I appreciate you filling in so many details, obviously I haven't studied this at any great length and it's an important cultural influence on early Christians.
 
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mark kennedy

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Easter? You mean Pascha. You forgot Pentecost...
Pentecost came exactly 50 days after Passover, all Jews were required to attend in Jerusalem as a matter of Law. The reason I consider Easter to be the only legitimate Christian holiday is because Christ was betrayed on Passover, the Lord's Supper being modeled after the Passover meal and initiated during Passover. It is not a Holy Convocation like the ancient Hebrews had under the Law, there is no religious compulsion to observe it as a requirement for fulfilling some religious duty. However it is inextricably linked to vital events in redemptive history, the Crucifixion and Exodus respectively.
 
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Root of Jesse

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The only time I actually looked into this was when I was debating doubtingmerel on the Carrier thesis. Apparently the initiating rites had a series of questions at eight levels, each level representing the eight planets. We wouldn't have hardly any of those questions because like you say, it had an exclusive membership, you had to be initiated. The point here being there is no indication that it had anything to do with the sun or stars, just the planets. Still it was a very popular mystery religion, supposedly most Roman soldiers were initiates. Mithra was kind of a warrior figure, fighting some kind of a bull he dragged to a cave and slew, so that might have been part of the appeal.

Constantine was into this I guess and continued to observe this winter celebration. It's safe to assume if that holds to be true that many other Romans were into this. I suspect, even though I'm weak on the details here, that the church simply created an alternative holiday. I appreciate you filling in so many details, obviously I haven't studied this at any great length and it's an important cultural influence on early Christians.
The holiday was created before the competing Sol Invictus was created. In fact, Sol Invictus was celebrated to compete with Christmas, which was already celebrated by Christians for at least 100 years on or about Dec 25.
 
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mark kennedy

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Pentecost is pretty strongly linked to redemptive history as well, being the descent of the Holy Spirit and the beginning of the Church/Body of Christ.
That's very true, when Jesus told the Apostles to wait for the coming of the Holy Spirit, apparently what they were waiting for was Pentecost. When you think about it it was the perfect time to send the Jews of the Dispersion home with the message of the gospel. A number of important traditions lay claim to being founded at Pentecost. When Paul writes the church at Rome he was probably addressing the church there that was founded at Pentecost. So I can see what you mean, I'm just not real comfortable with having some high holy day in New Testament Christianity, it might tend to be thought of as some legalistic religious duty.
 
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mark kennedy

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The holiday was created before the competing Sol Invictus was created. In fact, Sol Invictus was celebrated to compete with Christmas, which was already celebrated by Christians for at least 100 years on or about Dec 25.
That's more or less what I'm getting from all of this. In that sense I really don't have a problem with Christmas I'm just a little stand offish about this somehow being identified with pagan traditions. No self respecting Christian then or now would knowingly do any such thing. The only thing the two traditions should really have in common is a date on the calendar.
 
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Root of Jesse

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That's more or less what I'm getting from all of this. In that sense I really don't have a problem with Christmas I'm just a little stand offish about this somehow being identified with pagan traditions. No self respecting Christian then or now would knowingly do any such thing. The only thing the two traditions should really have in common is a date on the calendar.
I know. I'm just playing the trumpet. The practices people use to celebrate Christmas have pagan origins-candles and trees and reindeer and such. But Christmas is about celebrating our Lord's birth. Not presents and drinking egg nog. I ask my Confirmation students each year something like this:
When you have a birthday, you are likely to get presents. So when we celebrate Jesus' birthday, how come we get presents? Then I ask them to think about what they will give Jesus for His birthday. I mean, the Wise Men came bearing gifts for Him, why not us?
 
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Pentecost came exactly 50 days after Passover, all Jews were required to attend in Jerusalem as a matter of Law. The reason I consider Easter to be the only legitimate Christian holiday is because Christ was betrayed on Passover, the Lord's Supper being modeled after the Passover meal and initiated during Passover. It is not a Holy Convocation like the ancient Hebrews had under the Law, there is no religious compulsion to observe it as a requirement for fulfilling some religious duty. However it is inextricably linked to vital events in redemptive history, the Crucifixion and Exodus respectively.

Passover was also one of the 3 pilgrimage festivals (Shalosh Regalim).
 
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Root of Jesse

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I was wondering did all of the martyrdom occur during Nero's reign. Nero supposedly has Christians burned by hanging them and then burning them. They were used as "candlelights" so to speak, so I agree with you, prod. Christians were being persecuted at the time of the New Testament.
Not all, but many. We have more martyrs in the 20th century than all the others combined.
 
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I'm just not real comfortable with having some high holy day in New Testament Christianity, it might tend to be thought of as some legalistic religious duty.

I understand that sentiment. It wouldn't be right for me to condemn Catholic practices, because I only really know "what I've heard" in that regard, some of which has been propaganda. But I'm well familiar with the Protestant thinking in reaction against either real or perceived Catholic practices and dogma.

If it was all about legalistic obligation, I'd be right there with you. It has taken a bit of openness on my part to understand that the purpose of the liturgical year (in Orthodoxy) isn't to enforce a bunch of obligatory requirements (God forbid!) but rather as a means to commemorate, and to remember (but in an active sense) so many important events in Christian history.

I'm outside the Church right now, about to go in because we are having a Divine Liturgy tonight, to commemorate St. Nicholas. I'm not obligated to be here, but I'm thankful for an opportunity to gather with my Church family, worship God, receive Holy Communion, and it's a good time to remember the good example set by St. Nicholas, Bishop of Myra.

But as legalist obligations, I wouldn't appreciate it. I've also learned that legalistic expectations have the result of burdening the Body of Christ, pushing them further from God, not drawing them closer. But thankfully, this is not how we approach it. But vigilance in all things is necessary, because man is prone to all sorts of missteps, and creating legalistic requirements for the sake of somehow pleasing himself to have those hoops to jump through is a mistake we can make all too frequently.

God be with you.
 
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mark kennedy

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I understand that sentiment. It wouldn't be right for me to condemn Catholic practices, because I only really know "what I've heard" in that regard, some of which has been propaganda. But I'm well familiar with the Protestant thinking in reaction against either real or perceived Catholic practices and dogma.

If it was all about legalistic obligation, I'd be right there with you. It has taken a bit of openness on my part to understand that the purpose of the liturgical year (in Orthodoxy) isn't to enforce a bunch of obligatory requirements (God forbid!) but rather as a means to commemorate, and to remember (but in an active sense) so many important events in Christian history.

I'm outside the Church right now, about to go in because we are having a Divine Liturgy tonight, to commemorate St. Nicholas. I'm not obligated to be here, but I'm thankful for an opportunity to gather with my Church family, worship God, receive Holy Communion, and it's a good time to remember the good example set by St. Nicholas, Bishop of Myra.

But as legalist obligations, I wouldn't appreciate it. I've also learned that legalistic expectations have the result of burdening the Body of Christ, pushing them further from God, not drawing them closer. But thankfully, this is not how we approach it. But vigilance in all things is necessary, because man is prone to all sorts of missteps, and creating legalistic requirements for the sake of somehow pleasing himself to have those hoops to jump through is a mistake we can make all too frequently.

God be with you.
I think the COGIC churches, the big Pentecostal denomination, have something reminiscent of the ancient Hebrew, Holy Convocation, they even call it that. These things are all perfectly fine by me, I remember my Aunt trying to explain the Rosary to me. Apparently it is representative of the various events of the New Testament. Passover, it should be noted was reminiscent of the Exodus, Tabernacles of the wilderness wanderings etc. As people of faith we identify with long and time tested traditions that remind us of redemptive history past, present and even casting some light on the future. My feeling is that if you can partake of the Lord's Supper without remembering how much our sin cost him you might as well be eating potato chips. In all these things the forms are not as important as the substance found in Christ. If it helps you draw closer to God and remember the landmarks of redemption it can be a profoundly important practice. But just going through the motions yields little if we are just dutifully following some prescribed liturgy. It just depends.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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Reliable information is found in books, not on web sites pushing an agenda.
Feel free to expound from your source material because I'm not seeing much of a research challenge here.
 
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