The history of the origins of Christmas and St. Nicholas

[DavidFirth]

I agree. It's egregious what adopting these Pagan traditions has done for the faith.

My purpose is not to shine light on those who reject Yahweh's truth. My purpose is to shine light for those who seek Yahweh's truth.

Yahshua calls us to break from the traditions of men, in obedience to Yahweh.

True. Jesus told the Pharisees that their traditions meant nil, rather God's word is inviolate.

 

[prodromos]

I agree. It's egregious what adopting these Pagan traditions has done for the faith.

I wonder how long they had to search to find a picture of Nimrod with a deer and Santa holding a tree so they could claim the link.
Utter nonsense.

My purpose is not to shine light on those who reject Yahweh's truth. My purpose is to shine light for those who seek Yahweh's truth.

How does repeating untruths fulfill that purpose?

 

[HARK!]

How does repeating untruths fulfill that purpose?

What untruths?

 

[HARK!]

There actually wasn't a pagan holiday on December 25th. That's just made up but said so many times people believe it.

Brumalia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Brumalia (Latin: Brumalia, [bruːˈmaːlɪ.a], "winter festivals") was an ancient Roman, winter solstice festival honouring Saturn/Cronus and Ceres/Demeter, and Bacchus in some cases. By the Byzantine era, celebrations commenced on 24 November and lasted for a month, until Saturnalia and the "Waxing of the Light". The festival included night-time feasting, drinking, and merriment. During this time, prophetic indications were taken as prospects for the remainder of the winter. The festival was celebrated as late as the 6th century, until emperor Justinian's repression of paganism.[1]
Etymology
The name of Brumalia comes from [URL='https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bruma#Latin']brvma, [ˈbruːma], "Winter solstice", "Winter cold"; a shortening of *brevima, [ˈbrɛwɪma], presumed obsolete superlative form of brevis, later brevissima ("smallest", "shallowest", "briefest").[2][/URL][3]

Brumalia - Wikipedia


Yule
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Yule (disambiguation).
Yule

Hauling a Yule log at Christmas, 1832
Also called Yuletide, Yulefest
Observed by Various Northern Europeans, Neopagans, Unitarian Universalists
Type Cultural, Germanic Pagan then Christian, secular, contemporary Paganism
Significance Winter Festival
Date winter solstice
Frequency annual
Related to Winter solstice (Midwinter), Christmastide, quarter days, Wheel of the Year, Winter festivals, Christmas
Yule or Yuletide ("Yule time") was and is a festival observed by the historical Germanic peoples. Scholars have connected the celebration to the Wild Hunt, the god Odin, and the pagan Anglo-Saxon Mōdraniht. It later underwent Christianised reformulation resulting in the term Christmastide.

Terms with an etymological equivalent to Yule are used in the Nordic countries for Christmas with its religious rites, but also for the holidays of this season. Today Yule is also used to a lesser extent in the English-speaking world as a synonym for Christmas. Present day Christmas customs and traditions such as the Yule log, Yule goat, Yule boar, Yule singing, and others stem from pagan Yule. Today the event is celebrated in Heathenry and some other forms of Modern Paganism.

Yule - Wikipedia


December 25

• 
  Events
• 274 – A temple for Sol Invictus is dedicated in Rome by Emperor Aurelian.
• 
  
• December 25 - Wikipedia

It only took me a few minutes to Wiki this info.

I have books on this subject.

 

[redleghunter]

I have been reading up on other posts about various subjects and I am wondering about something myself. In the past, I have had questions about Christmas and should we as believers celebrate it. If the case is that we should show our devotion to the Lord and live in holiness by not celebrating a "holy day" with so much paganism in its origins. On the other hand,

I find it curious that there are other denominations and off-shoots of Christianity such as the Jehovah's Witnesses who don't celebrate Christmas because they see it as a worldly holiday. Because of its pagan origins, there is no doubt that Christmas has worldly origins. I have also seen a film and read about the Puritans or the Pilgrims not celebrating Christmas because of their own religious beliefs.

I know that one of the reasons why many in the Church celebrate Christmas is because of Saint Nicholas. Who exactly is Saint Nicholas and was he an Orthodox Saint from Turkey, or a Catholic one from Ireland, I am not so sure? I as also a believer am still in doubt if I should celebrate Christmas, but if there is a Christian origin, what is it? How did a round man wearing red and often times smoking a pipe being ridden by eight reindeer have anything to do with a holy man from the Old World?

My question is, what is the real history behind Christmas, and how does it really correlate with Jesus and the Word of God? Was Christmas ever a holy day considering all of the pagan origins that also still remain to this day? Out of curiosity, btw, would the life of Saint Nicholas correlate at all with the way Christmas is celebrated in the US?

A good scholarly source on two views of when Christ was born. The second one at the link below is the traditional view going back to the 2nd century Christian view.

Christmas - Was Jesus born on December 25th?

View one, at the link does try to argue adopting a pagan tradition but such does not hold water.

Here's the basic lay down (since the link is copyright material and I cannot quote here. Both views have as a starting point the service time of Zacharias as the house of Abjah. This is mentioned in Luke 1.

Tradition has it Zacharias served before the Temple altar during the feast of Atonement. Roughly September timeframe late to early October. Mary visited Elizabeth in her sixth month pregnant. In Luke 1 we know Mary after Gabriel's visitation immediately visited Elizabeth. Therefore the Incarnation was surmised in the latter portion of March or early April. 9 months later brings us to December timeframe.

More detail at the link.

 

[Radagast]

Posting unreliable web links doesn't help us much.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

That's not what I've heard.

Glad I could teach you something then. The old Boer usage was Christmas eve, Oukersaand as we call it, which more traditionally minded Afrikaans families continue (such as my own).

3 days in 4 centuries.

No, 3 in three centuries. Please take a look at my above post that you quoted again. Aurelian was in the third, not the fourth century and remember, the Julian reforms occurred mid first century BC, not at its beginning.

But the cult of Sol Invictus did not celebrate the solstice!

Correct, with a caveat. We have no late Roman list of pagan observances before the Christianisation. We have to extrapolate from a partial list in 354 AD and our earlier ones during the Principate.
What we do know is Aurelian instituted four yearly games in 274 AD when he consecrated a temple to Sol Invictus on 25 December. This was named the 'dies natalis', which is taken to mean the birth of the Sun, seeing that 25 December was the winter solstice that year. The assumption is that those games were in honour of Sol Invictus, who had become an increasingly important military god in the late years of the Principate.
When Diocletian formed the Tetrarchy, each Augustus and Caesar had to choose a guardian deity - Diocletian took Jupiter, Galerius and Maximian Hercules, but Constantius Chlorus took Sol Invictus, for instance. Such a prominent deity would have to have an official feast.

What should be remembered is the earlier Roman solstice festival of the Brumalia. This moved around a bit, but was dedicated to Chronus, Bacchus and Sol Indiges. Temples to Sol Indiges were dedicated on the solstice, as Quinctillian noted, so by extrapolation it is assumed that Sol Invictus had largely absorbed Sol Indiges by Aurelian's day, and consequently the Brumalia could be conceived as a festival of the rebirth of the Sun as much as the midwinter festival it otherwise was. It is also interesting to note that the Brumalia was official shifted into November and removed from any solar associations by Byzantine times, so this should give one pause.

As I said before, what role this played in the origin of Christmas, if any, is murky. But a solar solstice festival tentatively or tenuously connected to Sol Invictus is certainly possible and at least once in 274 AD, an explicit festival for Sol Invictus took place on the Solstice. If such a plsusible feast was fixed to 25 December, ie VIII p. Kalends Januarius, then it would have migrated away from the solstice itself though too.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Very, very informative. Do you consent to me sending that post to my family members via text message?

No problem. It is already publically posted on the internet and contains no information you couldn't quickly look up from reputable sources anyway.

 

[Radagast]

No, 3 in three centuries.

I know you're wrong on that, because the difference between the two calendars is 3 leap years per 400 years.

Inevitably, I now doubt everything else you've said.

 

[Tom 1]

I have been reading up on other posts about various subjects and I am wondering about something myself. In the past, I have had questions about Christmas and should we as believers celebrate it. If the case is that we should show our devotion to the Lord and live in holiness by not celebrating a "holy day" with so much paganism in its origins. On the other hand,

I find it curious that there are other denominations and off-shoots of Christianity such as the Jehovah's Witnesses who don't celebrate Christmas because they see it as a worldly holiday. Because of its pagan origins, there is no doubt that Christmas has worldly origins. I have also seen a film and read about the Puritans or the Pilgrims not celebrating Christmas because of their own religious beliefs.

I know that one of the reasons why many in the Church celebrate Christmas is because of Saint Nicholas. Who exactly is Saint Nicholas and was he an Orthodox Saint from Turkey, or a Catholic one from Ireland, I am not so sure? I as also a believer am still in doubt if I should celebrate Christmas, but if there is a Christian origin, what is it? How did a round man wearing red and often times smoking a pipe being ridden by eight reindeer have anything to do with a holy man from the Old World?

My question is, what is the real history behind Christmas, and how does it really correlate with Jesus and the Word of God? Was Christmas ever a holy day considering all of the pagan origins that also still remain to this day? Out of curiosity, btw, would the life of Saint Nicholas correlate at all with the way Christmas is celebrated in the US?

The idea of Christmas having pagan origins is vague - it’s one of those ideas that go around until people just accept it as fact. There’s no definite basis for it, some scholars suggest that a roman festival, Saturnalia, which seemed to have started to be popular in the early 200s and was maybe built on a previous more modest end of autumn rural festival, was appropriated by Christians, but that is just an assumption. Others argue that Christmas was set up in opposition to Saturnalia, which involved days of drinking and feasting as well as gift giving, in the mid 300s. The other idea, that Dec 25th was originally marked as a winter solstice festival, is pretty thin. There’s a professor, William Tighe, who did a lot of research into this and he concluded that the Dec 25th date was established after long efforts by early Latin Christians to fix the actual birthdate of Christ. In any case Christmas is about family right? Can’t see God having a problem with that

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Tradition has it Zacharias served before the Temple altar during the feast of Atonement. Roughly September timeframe late to early October. Mary visited Elizabeth in her sixth month pregnant. In Luke 1 we know Mary after Gabriel's visitation immediately visited Elizabeth. Therefore the Incarnation was surmised in the latter portion of March or early April. 9 months later brings us to December timeframe.

Beginning on Nisan 1, these courses or divisions rotated throughout the year, serving in the Temple for one week apiece. Abiyah was the 8th such course. So Abiyah served 2 times per year and also on all 3 major Festivals when all the courses served (Pesakh, Shavuot and Yom Kippur).

 

[Tom 1]

View attachment 215252

I don’t think anyone, or any Christian in any case, advocates worshipping Christmas trees. It’s important to remember that the ideas behind these kind of theories, like Nimrod as Sargon the great, are speculative. Not to disparage the work of ANE scholars but they are working with pretty thin material. Once you get to these kind of random notions about some festival that might have been celebrated in ancient Mesopotamia but that actually we know next to nothing about being somehow linked to Christmas 3,000 years or more later then calling it speculative is just being very generous (in the Christmas spirit!)

 

[prodromos]

What untruths?

The untruth that Christian feast days are derived from earlier pagan festivals.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I know you're wrong on that, because the difference between the two calendars is 3 leap years per 400 years.

If you want to be nit-picky about it, I was just trying to simplify a bit... The Romans did not determine solstices as we do. In Hellenistic times the earth was conceived as a sphere with a heavenly sphere surrounding it. The stars are suspended from this, but the sun moves in an ecliptic circle that follows a different path. Pliny records the solstice, which is where the term comes from, as the 'stopping or standing of the sun'. It refers to the end of the declination movement of the sun on this date relative to the heavenly sphere. Astronomy was conceived with perfect circles and epicycles, so determining dates of celestial phenomena were always a little off. Remember, this was way before ideas like relative velocity and our much later atronomical knowhow. Calendrical drift and minor erroneous determination easily explains what is going on. What we do know is that 25 December in 274 AD was the solstice to the Romans, for this is when temples to the Sun were traditionally dedicated.
We don't know what exact method the Romans used to determine solstices, but likely by approximation of observed declination angles at noon before and after a presumed solstice date. Without equipment like sextants, this is very dodgy. Even with sextants it remains dodgy. To use this with an incorrect model of the movements of heavenly bodies thereafter, to interpret when the next solstice would occur for ceremonies and dedications and such, is fraught with error - understandably so.

Inevitably, I now doubt everything else you've said.

Fair enough. You can look any of it up if you wish though.

 

[DavidFirth]

No problem. It is already publically posted on the internet and contains no information you couldn't quickly look up from reputable sources anyway.

Thank you. I wouldn't do it without your consent.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Of Myra, actually (Acts 27:5).

LOL thanks for the correction!

I'll have to keep an eye on that, in case it was my auto correct. It makes rather embarrassing (sometimes unfortunate) errors sometimes.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I agree. It's egregious what adopting these Pagan traditions has done for the faith.

My purpose is not to shine light on those who reject Yahweh's truth. My purpose is to shine light for those who seek Yahweh's truth.

Yahshua calls us to break from the traditions of men, in obedience to Yahweh.

I wouldn't reply except you used my post to make your point.

If one is going to make arguments regarding "traditions" - it might be a good idea to know where they actually come from and why. If we accuse our Christian fathers of deliberate collaboration with paganism where there was none, we smear the faith and other Christians.

It is not good to become a false accuser of the brethren, though I realize it is often done from zeal.

 

[DavidFirth]

Brumalia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Brumalia (Latin: Brumalia, [bruːˈmaːlɪ.a], "winter festivals") was an ancient Roman, winter solstice festival honouring Saturn/Cronus and Ceres/Demeter, and Bacchus in some cases. By the Byzantine era, celebrations commenced on 24 November and lasted for a month, until Saturnalia and the "Waxing of the Light". The festival included night-time feasting, drinking, and merriment. During this time, prophetic indications were taken as prospects for the remainder of the winter. The festival was celebrated as late as the 6th century, until emperor Justinian's repression of paganism.[1]
Etymology
The name of Brumalia comes from brvma, [ˈbruːma], "Winter solstice", "Winter cold"; a shortening of *brevima, [ˈbrɛwɪma], presumed obsolete superlative form of brevis, later brevissima ("smallest", "shallowest", "briefest").[2][3]

Brumalia - Wikipedia


Yule
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Yule (disambiguation).
Yule

Hauling a Yule log at Christmas, 1832
Also called Yuletide, Yulefest
Observed by Various Northern Europeans, Neopagans, Unitarian Universalists
Type Cultural, Germanic Pagan then Christian, secular, contemporary Paganism
Significance Winter Festival
Date winter solstice
Frequency annual
Related to Winter solstice (Midwinter), Christmastide, quarter days, Wheel of the Year, Winter festivals, Christmas
Yule or Yuletide ("Yule time") was and is a festival observed by the historical Germanic peoples. Scholars have connected the celebration to the Wild Hunt, the god Odin, and the pagan Anglo-Saxon Mōdraniht. It later underwent Christianised reformulation resulting in the term Christmastide.

Terms with an etymological equivalent to Yule are used in the Nordic countries for Christmas with its religious rites, but also for the holidays of this season. Today Yule is also used to a lesser extent in the English-speaking world as a synonym for Christmas. Present day Christmas customs and traditions such as the Yule log, Yule goat, Yule boar, Yule singing, and others stem from pagan Yule. Today the event is celebrated in Heathenry and some other forms of Modern Paganism.

Yule - Wikipedia


December 25

• 
  Events
• 274 – A temple for Sol Invictus is dedicated in Rome by Emperor Aurelian.
• 
  
• December 25 - Wikipedia

It only took me a few minutes to Wiki this info.

I have books on this subject.

That doesn't prove what you said.

 

[Radagast]

Astronomy was conceived with perfect circles and epicycles, so determining dates of celestial phenomena were always a little off.

Solstice (noun): either of the two times in the year, the summer solstice and the winter solstice, when the sun reaches its highest or lowest point in the sky at noon, marked by the longest and shortest days.

What we do know is that 25 December in 274 AD was the solstice to the Romans

Really? That seems doubtful to me. Especially since the error in the calendar caused the solstice to move earlier in the year.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Solstice (noun): either of the two times in the year, the summer solstice and the winter solstice, when the sun reaches its highest or lowest point in the sky at noon, marked by the longest and shortest days.

Yes? Which would be when at the end of declination movement as I stated, hence the name Sol Stitium, 'sun standing'. What is your point?

Really? That seems doubtful to me. Especially since the error in the calendar caused the solstice to move earlier in the year.

This is about the Roman perception of when the Solstice was, not the actual solstice. A determined date would then drift forward, which is why it was corrected later by dropping days. The Romans didn't repeat the observations repetitively, since they did not think their calender in error. The Pontifex would correct the calender in Republican times based on watchers seeing where the sun rose from the Arx on the Capitoline. They would look for the moon over the Janiculum and the sun over the mountains on the opposite side, until it almost was in line with the via Sacra in midwinter. With Imperial adoption of the titulature of Pontifex, many of the duties became shifted onto flunkies. This is how ceremonial dating under the later principate became such a shambles with a mix of archaic practices. This can be seen even early in the Principate, such as when Augustus had to suspend intercalation for a decade due to errors made in the ceremonial calender by incorrect intercalations. Perhaps I am being too unclear, but this dating arose probably on grounds of a compounding of errors. Once again though, the Romans considered 25 December in 274 AD to be the Solstice.