The historicity of the pre-trib rapture of the Church has always come directly from the Scriptures.

[Quasar92]

Nobody returns to the third heaven in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 or 5, either.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 and chapter 4 are speaking of the same event.

1Th 5:10　 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.　


The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is revealed at the beginning of chapter 5 on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief".

Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, it is clearly a Second Coming event.

I suggest you review my post #99 just above yours I am responding to that the Scriptures in it fully refute the views you have expressed in this one. There is nothing whatever to identify heaven, as the "third heaven." you allude to. Paul's reference in 1 Thess.4:17 where the Church is CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord in the air/sky, doesn't end there. Yhe Church is not going to remain with Jesus in the air/sky forever! In Jn.14:2-3 and 28, reveal that Jesus takes us to our Father, who resides in heaven, according to Mt.6:9! From where the Church is in heaven for the marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, according to Rev.19:7-8! From where, Jesus will return from the marriage in heaven, in His second coming to the earth, WITH HIS CHURCH FROM HEAVEN, as recorded in Rev.19:14!

You remain refuted!


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

2 Thessalonians in context;

2 Thessalonians Chapter 1

1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

When does Paul say there will be rest? Answer: When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels. Matthew 24:31

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe(because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Nothing in the above 4 verses sounds like a snatching away to heaven of believers. When He comes from heaven we rest, he takes vengeance on them that know not God, and He is glorified in His saints. There is not even a hint of returning to heaven in this passage and Jesus deals will both the saints and the ungodly in this 1 coming.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.





2 Thessalonians Chapter 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

There is no reason from the text to make this a different coming that the one in chapter 1:7-10


Paul is absolutely clear we are gathered at this coming and it is the same coming in which we find rest, He is glorified in His saints and He takes vengeance on them that know not God. There is no trip to heaven for the church anywhere in this epistle.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christis at hand.

In context, the day of Christ is the same day as the coming of our Lord in verse 1 and 7-10 in chapter 1. Compare 1 Corinthians 1:8, Philippians 1:6, Philippians 1:10, Philippians 2:16.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The same day as Chapter 1:7-10 and verses 1 & 2 in this chapter.


The assertion that falling away in this passage refers to a separate coming of the Lord other than the one in the context of these two chapters defies all rules of proper exegesis and logic. There is absolutely no justification for chopping up this text to make it say something other that what it plainly says. Paul did not jump back and forth talking about different comings of the Lord to satisfy our doctrinal fancies. Paul did not hide a coming of the Lord in the word “apostasia” to be found only by those who need to find one.There is one more coming of the Lord in our future!

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

There is nothing in this text to identify “what withholdeth” as the church. Theories I have read or put forth on this forum include 1.The church 2. The Holy Spirit within the church. 3. God Himself 4 . an angel probably Michael.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

When is the church ever referred to in scripture as “HE”?


How can the omnipresent Holy Spirit be taken out of the way?


How can God himself be taken out of the way and who would do it ?

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


This coming in the context of this book of 2 Thessalonians , is the same coming in 1:7-10 and 2:1-3.There is no other coming of the Lord in our future.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.





2 Thessalonians Chapter 3



1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.

5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

The only reference to His coming in this chapter. The one and only coming referred to in this book and yet in our future.

6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.

14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

Might this apply to those that use a doctrinal knife on this epistle to obtain multiple comings of the Lord?

15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

16 Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.

17 The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.

18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Let Paul through inspired scripture say what he said.

First of all, let's have a look at one of the oracles you wrote in the above epistle was:

"When does Paul say there will be rest? Answer: When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels. "Matthew 24:31"

What's wrong with that remark? You allude to Paul who's remarks you allude to. Then you leave a passage of Scripture in Mt.24:31.

Jesus ministry in His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6. The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost. ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

The Scriptural facts fully supporting the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church refuting you, is in my post #99 above.


Quasar92

 

[Postvieww]

First of all, let's have a look at one of the oracles you wrote in the above epistle was:

"When does Paul say there will be rest? Answer: When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels. "Matthew 24:31"

What's wrong with that remark? You allude to Paul who's remarks you allude to. Then you leave a passage of Scripture in Mt.24:31.

Jesus ministry in His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6. The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost. ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

The Scriptural facts fully supporting the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church refuting you, is in my post #99 above.


Quasar92

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 is the same event as Matthew 24:29-31. Again you ignore the substance of my post.

 

[jgr]

All of which took place AFTER the original translation was altered in 1,611 , when there were only SEVEN Envlish Bibles known!

Those incompetent translators, all ignorant of the deceptive alteration. Have you contacted them all to inform them of their error? If not, why not? If so, post their responses. Otherwise, give it and us a rest.

 

[Quasar92]

Those incompetent translators, all ignorant of the deceptive alteration. Have you contacted them all to inform them of their error? If not, why not? If so, post their responses. Otherwise, give it and us a rest.

The above is a very good description of the contributions coming from you. The following fully refutes you:

criptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church as taught by Jesus and Paul:

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


The pre-trib rapture of the Church views posted above fully endorsed by the following:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.


Quasar92

 

[Erik Nelson]

Debunked.

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing/departure means departure from the truth i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe himself identified antichrist as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He unquestionably therefore did not believe in a pretrib rapture.


And from Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified antichrist as the papacy, and thus did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and almost certainly of like persuasion.
Beza was almost certainly of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who defined the word as anything other than apostasy.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3


The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its ensuing apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name the Holy Spirit. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, explains:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him. And otherwise he ought now to have come, if he was about to come when the gifts ceased; for they have long since ceased. But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the accuracy of Paul's understanding and predictions.

Well, Quasar92 has one strong observation, technically "apo-stasia" = "away + stand" meaning to "stand away from" in dissension & disagreement. Maybe one thing that animates him so much is the difference between the Greek dictionary definition "standing (away)" and some translations which somehow devise "falling (away)" ?

It does also appear quite clear that the Classical-era Graeco-Roman Christians, to whom all Westerners owe their heritage of Christianity, do hand down to us moderns a clear "locus of meaning":

apo-stasia = standing away from (in discord & disagreement)
dissension = sensing / feeling away from (in discord & disagreement)

The most natural modern interpretation of that "locus of meaning" is schisms arising within Christendom, causing people to physically stand apart from each other, because they mentally feel strongly for mutually disagreeable precepts.

Prima facie, the increasing fracturing of (especially Western) Christianity over the past 500 years, and which is further occurring right now in this very thread, as we read & write it, exactly & precisely fits the ancient now 2000 year old predictions of Prophesy.

If there really actually were advanced Aliens, out in space, staring at Earth in "Their" powerful telescopes, akin to the narrator voice-over at the beginning of the relatively recent movie War of the Worlds, then what "They" would be seeing right now is a group of Christians apostating away from each other in increasing dissension & discord, precisely as predicted 2000 years ago.

If all this dissension & apostasy is happening right now, then Scripture, vindicated in part, could be expected to be vindicated in whole, such that we right now exist in the long ago Prophetically predicted End Times, on the eve of Doomsday, fast approaching and to arrive stealthily sometime "Biblically soon" (Rev 20, "a short time").

 

[Postvieww]

2 Thessalonians Chapter 2



2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The subject of the chapter, the coming.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ the same day referred to in verse 1.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The same day as verse 1 &2. Paul made no distinction between verses 1 & 2 so they are the same day.


Pre-trib rendering of the passage:


Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (rapture/resurrection)shall not come, except there come a (rapture/resurrection) falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


In what world does this make any sense?

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The man of sin from verse 4

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Where else in scripture is the church referred to as “what” ? If Paul was referring to the church why did he not say you instead of what?

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Where else I scripture is the church referred to as “he”?


Why did Paul not say you who now letteth and you be taken out of the way? The reason is simple he wasn’t talking about he church. Paul did say you in verse 3 when addressing the church.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The same coming as verse 1.



2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This chapter begins with the coming of the Lord and ends with the coming of the Lord. The pre-trib camp has to do major surgery on the text of this chapter to make the coming in verse 1 a different coming from the one in verse 8 when actually they are the same coming. Nowhere do we find the word “comings” in the text or any allusion to more than one coming.

 

[Postvieww]

Since a list of proponents of a doctrine can be entered into the debate as evidence here is my (partial) entry.


Adolfo Ricardo Ybarra (outstanding post-tribulational Christian writer of Spanish language), The Basis of the Post- tribulational Faith <Las Bases de la Fe Postribulacional>

Albert Mohler (Post-tribulationist,[63] President of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary)

Augustine of Hippo, The City of God, Chapter 23.

Barnabas, The Epistle of Barnabas, chapter 4

Caecilius Cyprianus (Bishop of Carthage; Post-tribulationist) [Treatise 7.2]

Didache (speaks of Jesus gathering the elect after the Tribulation)

Ephrem the Syrian (Post-tribulationist)

George Müller (19th Century Christian evangelist and orphanage coordinator)

Greg Koukl (Evangelical Radio Host, Apologist, Author and Speaker for Stand to Reason)

Hermas, The Shepherd of Hermas

Hippolytus (Writer of the early Christian Church; Speaks of the Antichrist's reign and persecution of the Church )

Irenaeus (Post-tribulationist; Disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the apostle)

John Charles Ryle (19th Century Anglican bishop and theologian)

Benjamin Wills Newton (Evangelist, leader in the Plymouth Brethren, theological rival to John Nelson Darby.)

John Gill (Held the view that the Church was not raptured out in any event prior the tribulation)

Justin Martyr (Christian apologist and post-tribulationist)

Charles Spurgeon (Christian English Baptist Preacher. Known as the "Prince of Preachers".)

James Montgomery Boice (Former Pastor of Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, PA.)

John Piper (Evangelical Calvinist, Pastor, Author) Article listed below.

Samuel Prideaux Tregelles (19th Century Bible scholar)

Tertullian (Father of the Latin Church; Post-tribulationist)

Victorinus (third or fourth century; Book of Revelation first commentary writer)

Walter Ralston Martin (20th Century American Apologist, Minister, Author, and Founder of Christian Research Institute)

George Eldon Ladd (Baptist minister and Theologian. Taught at Fuller Theological Seminary.)

Gordon Clark (Christian Philosopher and Theologian.)

Wayne Grudem (well known Christian theologian, author, and professor)

Mike Bickle (charismatic)

 

[Postvieww]

No two coming of the Lord passages are identical. Pointing out differences in passages is not proof of multiple comings!

All of those passages harmonize there are no contradictions.

Zech. 14 says His feet stands on the Mount Rev. 19 does not yet they are the same coming.

Matt 24 Mentions His coming, trumpet, angels, gathering as does 1 Thess. 4, yet many insist they are different comings .

Matt. and 1 Thess. Are the same coming clearly after the tribulation per Matthew.

 

[jgr]

deleted

 

[jgr]

More meaningless opinions coming from an empty wagon without a shred of Scriptural support to verify it.

The act of the matter is, there was only seven English translations of the Bible, in the 17th century, when the alteration by KJV scribes took place. From which the proof has been given to you many times over, what the intended and proper historical translation of 2 Thess.2:3 was, for 17 centuries, from a well qualified source.


Quasar92

Since it seems you were unable or unwilling, I took the liberty of contacting the NASB translation folks at the Lockman foundation regarding 2 Thess. 2:3. I provided them with this link. Here is their response:


The online article cited offers arguments which are incorrect. The verb that apostasia comes from has several meanings, but the main meanings include "revolt," "desert," "fall away," and even "become a backslider." The noun apostasia is not automatically capable of having all of the meanings that the verb does. The way the meaning of a word is determined is by examining how it is used, and apostasia is consistently used of revolting, rebellion, and abandoning a belief system. Aside from 2 Thess 2:3 it is only found in Acts 21:21 in the New Testament, where it is used of abandoning the Law of Moses. In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, it occurs in Josh 22:22, 2 Chr 29:19, and 1 Macc 2:15, and in each verse it refers to apostasy or rebellion.

It is interesting that the writer also cites Liddell and Scott (now LSJM) in support, observing that the first definitions are "defection" and "revolt." He fails to mention that LSJM immediately add, "especially in a religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy," and then go on to cite not only Josh 22:22 but also 2 Thess 2:3. So what the writer states is simply a misleading presentation of the evidence. The argument about the translation shift is irrelevant in view of the evidence for the correct meaning, and this argument is also questionable. "Departure" seems not to have meant simply to leave a place, but to separate from someone or something. For these and other reasons the NASB translators are confident about the meaning "apostasy" in 2 Thess 2:3.

 

[BABerean2]

I suggest you review my post #99 just above yours I am responding to that the Scriptures in it fully refute the views you have expressed in this one. There is nothing whatever to identify heaven, as the "third heaven." you allude to. Paul's reference in 1 Thess.4:17 where the Church is CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord in the air/sky, doesn't end there. Yhe Church is not going to remain with Jesus in the air/sky forever! In Jn.14:2-3 and 28, reveal that Jesus takes us to our Father, who resides in heaven, according to Mt.6:9! From where the Church is in heaven for the marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, according to Rev.19:7-8! From where, Jesus will return from the marriage in heaven, in His second coming to the earth, WITH HIS CHURCH FROM HEAVEN, as recorded in Rev.19:14!

You remain refuted!


Quasar92

Carl Gallups is pastor of Hickory Hammock Baptist Church.

He has rejected the doctrine that John Nelson Darby brought to America, about the time of the Civil War.

 

[Quasar92]

Since it seems you were unable or unwilling, I took the liberty of contacting the NASB translation folks at the Lockman foundation regarding 2 Thess. 2:3. I provided them with this link. Here is their response:


The online article cited offers arguments which are incorrect. The verb that apostasia comes from has several meanings, but the main meanings include "revolt," "desert," "fall away," and even "become a backslider." The noun apostasia is not automatically capable of having all of the meanings that the verb does. The way the meaning of a word is determined is by examining how it is used, and apostasia is consistently used of revolting, rebellion, and abandoning a belief system. Aside from 2 Thess 2:3 it is only found in Acts 21:21 in the New Testament, where it is used of abandoning the Law of Moses. In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, it occurs in Josh 22:22, 2 Chr 29:19, and 1 Macc 2:15, and in each verse it refers to apostasy or rebellion.

It is interesting that the writer also cites Liddell and Scott (now LSJM) in support, observing that the first definitions are "defection" and "revolt." He fails to mention that LSJM immediately add, "especially in a religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy," and then go on to cite not only Josh 22:22 but also 2 Thess 2:3. So what the writer states is simply a misleading presentation of the evidence. The argument about the translation shift is irrelevant in view of the evidence for the correct meaning, and this argument is also questionable. "Departure" seems not to have meant simply to leave a place, but to separate from someone or something. For these and other reasons the NASB translators are confident about the meaning "apostasy" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Your obsession 2 Thess.2:3 is saying the Church is going into apostasy, in the context that word was miss-translated into, from the translation history, is false. I have mchallenged you before, to explain how you can get an apostasy of the Church, out of Paul's teachings in 1 Thewss.4:13-18 and in 2 Thess.2:1-8 specifically pertains to a rapture if the Church. You also fail to recognize the fact that Jerome translated the Greek word "apostasia," meaning "departure," to the Latin word "discessio," which also means "departure." Ewview the following for the proper fax\cts of this issue:

THE MEANING OF APOSTASIA

The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2nd Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, “that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses.” The word is a Greek compound of apo, or “from” and istemi, or “stand.” Thus, it has the core meaning of “away from” or “departure.”

Liddell and Scott’s “A Greek English Lexicon” defines apostasia first as “defection, revolt”; then secondly as “departure, or disappearance.” Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:

The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13; 1st Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 3:12).The word is used for departing from iniquity (2nd Timothy 2:19), from ungodly men (1st Timothy 6:5), from the Temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2nd Corinthians 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13). “It is with full assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages,” concludes Daniel Davey, “that the word meaning of apostasia is defined as departure.” Paul Lee Tan adds the following:

What precisely does Paul mean when he says that “the falling away” (2:3) must come before the Tribulation? The definite article “the” denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for “falling away,” taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean “to fall,” as the Greeks have another word for that [pipto, I fall; TDI]. The best translation of the word is “to depart.” The Apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls “the departure,” and which will occur just before the start of the Tribulation. This is the Rapture of the Church. So the word has the core meaning of “departure” and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as a departure from the faith.

TRANSLATION HISTORY

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608). This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of AD 400 renders apostasia with the word discessio, meaning “departure.” Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”? Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as “falling away.” Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as “departure.” No good reason was ever given.

THE USE OF THE ARTICLE

It is important to note that Paul used a definite article with the noun apostasia. What does this mean? Davey notes the following:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article reference is being made to something in particular. In 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.”

Dr. Lewis provides a likely answer when he notes that the definite article serves to make a word distinct and draw attention to it. In this instance he believes that its purpose is “to denote a previous reference.” “The departure Paul previously referred to was ‘our being gathered to him’ (v. 1) and our being ‘caught up’ with the Lord and the raptured dead in the clouds (1st Thessalonians 4:17),” notes Dr. Lewis. 8 The “departure” was something that Paul and his readers clearly had a mutual understanding about. Paul said in verse 5, “Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? The use of the definite article would also support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable event. A physical departure like the Rapture would fit just such a notion. However, the New Testament teaches that apostasy had already arrived in the first century (cf. Acts 20:27–32; 1st Timothy 4:1–5; 2nd Timothy 3:1–9; 2nd Peter 2:1–3; Jude 3–4, 17–21) and thus, such a process would not denote a clear event as demanded by the language of this passage. Understanding departure as the Rapture would satisfy the nuance of this text.

E. Schuyler English explains as follows:

Again, how would the Thessalonians, or Christians in any century since, be qualified to recognize the apostasy when it should come, assuming, simply for the sake of this inquiry, that the Church might be on Earth when it does come? There has been apostasy from God, rebellion against Him, since time began.
Whatever Paul is referring to in his reference to “the departure” was something that both the Thessalonian believers and he had discussed in depth previously. When we examine Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentioned the doctrine of apostasy; however, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the Rapture (cf. 1:9–10; 2:19; probably 3:13; 4:13–17; 5:1–11). In these passages, Paul has used a variety of Greek terms to describe the Rapture. It should not be surprising that he used another term to reference the Rapture in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3. Dr. House tells us:

Remember, the Thessalonians had been led astray by the false teaching (2:2–3) that the “Day of the Lord” had already come. This was confusing because Paul offered great hope, in the first letter, of a departure to be with Christ and a rescue from God’s wrath. Now a letter purporting to be from Paul seems to say that they would first have to go through the “Day of the Lord.” Paul then clarified his prior teaching by emphasizing that they had no need to worry. They could again be comforted because the departure he had discussed in his first letter, and in his teaching while with them, was still the truth. The departure of Christians to be with Christ, and the subsequent revelation of the lawless one, Paul argues, is proof that the “Day of the Lord” had not begun as they had thought. This understanding of apostasia makes much more sense than the view that they are to be comforted (v. 2) because a defection from the faith must precede the “Day of the Lord.” The entire second chapter (as well as 1st Thessalonians 4:18; 5:11) serves to comfort (see vv. 2, 3, 17), supplied by a reassurance of Christ’s coming as taught in his first letter.

DEPARTURE AND THE RESTRAINER

Since pretribulationists believe that the restrainer mentioned in verses 6 and 7 is the Holy Spirit and teaches a pre-trib Rapture, then it should not be surprising to see that there is a similar progression of thought in the progression of verse 3. Allan MacRae, president of Faith Theological Seminary, in a letter to Schuyler English, has said the following concerning this matter:

I wonder if you have noticed the striking parallel between this verse and verses 7–8, a little further down.According to your suggestion verse 3 mentions the departure of the Church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the Man of Sin. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: “And then shall that Wicked be revealed.” Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of “departure,” while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as “falling away” because of the proximity of the mention of the Man of Sin.

Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute, added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:

But then the apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom, which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy, which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event.The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the “Day of the Lord,” and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period.

CONCLUSION

The fact that apostasia most likely has the meaning of physical departure is a clear support for pretribulationism. If this is true, and I believe it is, then it means that a clear, prophetic sequence is laid out by Paul early in his apostolic ministry. Paul taught in 2nd Thessalonians 2 that the Rapture would occur before the “Day of the Lord” commences. It is not until after the beginning of the “Day of the Lord” that the Antichrist is released, resulting in the events described by him in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2. This is the only interpretation that provides hope for a discomforted people. Maranatha!

By Thomas Ice, PhD.

From: http://focusonjerusalem.com/istheraptur ... onians.htm


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

2 Thessalonians Chapter 2



2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The subject of the chapter, the coming.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ the same day referred to in verse 1.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The same day as verse 1 &2. Paul made no distinction between verses 1 & 2 so they are the same day.


Pre-trib rendering of the passage:


Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (rapture/resurrection)shall not come, except there come a (rapture/resurrection) falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


In what world does this make any sense?

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The man of sin from verse 4

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Where else in scripture is the church referred to as “what” ? If Paul was referring to the church why did he not say you instead of what?

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Where else I scripture is the church referred to as “he”?


Why did Paul not say you who now letteth and you be taken out of the way? The reason is simple he wasn’t talking about he church. Paul did say you in verse 3 when addressing the church.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The same coming as verse 1.



2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This chapter begins with the coming of the Lord and ends with the coming of the Lord. The pre-trib camp has to do major surgery on the text of this chapter to make the coming in verse 1 a different coming from the one in verse 8 when actually they are the same coming. Nowhere do we find the word “comings” in the text or any allusion to more than one coming.

FYI, 2 Thess.2:1 states, "about the Lord Jesus Christ and OUR GATHERING UNTO HIM." Which will NEVER take place in His Second Coming to the earth WITH HIS CHURCH, from the marriage in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-8 and 14. Whom He CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to meet Him in the air/sky seven years before, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16-17.

Making up the Scriptures to say what you want them to say, instead of what they do say is the problem you are having


Quasar92.

 

[Postvieww]

FYI, 2 Thess.2:1 states, "about the Lord Jesus Christ and OUR GATHERING UNTO HIM." Which will NEVER take place in His Second Coming to the earth WITH HIS CHURCH, from the marriage in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-8 and 14. Whom He CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to meet Him in the air/sky seven years before, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16-17.

Making up the Scriptures to say what you want them to say, instead of what they do say is the problem you are having


Quasar92.

Here you go again doing what you accuse others of doing. You say the scriptures I pointed out cannot mean what they say because you have misinterpreted what Revelation 19 says. Try dealing with what 2 Thessalonians actually says. If you want to try to refute my post fine, but deal with what I actually wrote. To take the time to respond to a post without dealing with the substance of the post is a waste of time.

 

[Hal A Peno]

ccc

 

[jgr]

Your obsession 2 Thess.2:3 is saying the Church is going into apostasy, in the context that word was miss-translated into, from the translation history, is false. I have mchallenged you before, to explain how you can get an apostasy of the Church, out of Paul's teachings in 1 Thewss.4:13-18 and in 2 Thess.2:1-8 specifically pertains to a rapture if the Church. You also fail to recognize the fact that Jerome translated the Greek word "apostasia," meaning "departure," to the Latin word "discessio," which also means "departure." Ewview the following for the proper fax\cts of this issue:

THE MEANING OF APOSTASIA

The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2nd Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, “that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses.” The word is a Greek compound of apo, or “from” and istemi, or “stand.” Thus, it has the core meaning of “away from” or “departure.”

Liddell and Scott’s “A Greek English Lexicon” defines apostasia first as “defection, revolt”; then secondly as “departure, or disappearance.” Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:

The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13; 1st Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 3:12).The word is used for departing from iniquity (2nd Timothy 2:19), from ungodly men (1st Timothy 6:5), from the Temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2nd Corinthians 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13). “It is with full assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages,” concludes Daniel Davey, “that the word meaning of apostasia is defined as departure.” Paul Lee Tan adds the following:

What precisely does Paul mean when he says that “the falling away” (2:3) must come before the Tribulation? The definite article “the” denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for “falling away,” taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean “to fall,” as the Greeks have another word for that [pipto, I fall; TDI]. The best translation of the word is “to depart.” The Apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls “the departure,” and which will occur just before the start of the Tribulation. This is the Rapture of the Church. So the word has the core meaning of “departure” and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as a departure from the faith.

TRANSLATION HISTORY

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608). This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of AD 400 renders apostasia with the word discessio, meaning “departure.” Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”? Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as “falling away.” Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as “departure.” No good reason was ever given.

THE USE OF THE ARTICLE

It is important to note that Paul used a definite article with the noun apostasia. What does this mean? Davey notes the following:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article reference is being made to something in particular. In 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.”

Dr. Lewis provides a likely answer when he notes that the definite article serves to make a word distinct and draw attention to it. In this instance he believes that its purpose is “to denote a previous reference.” “The departure Paul previously referred to was ‘our being gathered to him’ (v. 1) and our being ‘caught up’ with the Lord and the raptured dead in the clouds (1st Thessalonians 4:17),” notes Dr. Lewis. 8 The “departure” was something that Paul and his readers clearly had a mutual understanding about. Paul said in verse 5, “Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? The use of the definite article would also support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable event. A physical departure like the Rapture would fit just such a notion. However, the New Testament teaches that apostasy had already arrived in the first century (cf. Acts 20:27–32; 1st Timothy 4:1–5; 2nd Timothy 3:1–9; 2nd Peter 2:1–3; Jude 3–4, 17–21) and thus, such a process would not denote a clear event as demanded by the language of this passage. Understanding departure as the Rapture would satisfy the nuance of this text.

E. Schuyler English explains as follows:

Again, how would the Thessalonians, or Christians in any century since, be qualified to recognize the apostasy when it should come, assuming, simply for the sake of this inquiry, that the Church might be on Earth when it does come? There has been apostasy from God, rebellion against Him, since time began.
Whatever Paul is referring to in his reference to “the departure” was something that both the Thessalonian believers and he had discussed in depth previously. When we examine Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentioned the doctrine of apostasy; however, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the Rapture (cf. 1:9–10; 2:19; probably 3:13; 4:13–17; 5:1–11). In these passages, Paul has used a variety of Greek terms to describe the Rapture. It should not be surprising that he used another term to reference the Rapture in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3. Dr. House tells us:

Remember, the Thessalonians had been led astray by the false teaching (2:2–3) that the “Day of the Lord” had already come. This was confusing because Paul offered great hope, in the first letter, of a departure to be with Christ and a rescue from God’s wrath. Now a letter purporting to be from Paul seems to say that they would first have to go through the “Day of the Lord.” Paul then clarified his prior teaching by emphasizing that they had no need to worry. They could again be comforted because the departure he had discussed in his first letter, and in his teaching while with them, was still the truth. The departure of Christians to be with Christ, and the subsequent revelation of the lawless one, Paul argues, is proof that the “Day of the Lord” had not begun as they had thought. This understanding of apostasia makes much more sense than the view that they are to be comforted (v. 2) because a defection from the faith must precede the “Day of the Lord.” The entire second chapter (as well as 1st Thessalonians 4:18; 5:11) serves to comfort (see vv. 2, 3, 17), supplied by a reassurance of Christ’s coming as taught in his first letter.

DEPARTURE AND THE RESTRAINER

Since pretribulationists believe that the restrainer mentioned in verses 6 and 7 is the Holy Spirit and teaches a pre-trib Rapture, then it should not be surprising to see that there is a similar progression of thought in the progression of verse 3. Allan MacRae, president of Faith Theological Seminary, in a letter to Schuyler English, has said the following concerning this matter:

I wonder if you have noticed the striking parallel between this verse and verses 7–8, a little further down.According to your suggestion verse 3 mentions the departure of the Church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the Man of Sin. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: “And then shall that Wicked be revealed.” Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of “departure,” while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as “falling away” because of the proximity of the mention of the Man of Sin.

Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute, added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:

But then the apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom, which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy, which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event.The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the “Day of the Lord,” and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period.

CONCLUSION

The fact that apostasia most likely has the meaning of physical departure is a clear support for pretribulationism. If this is true, and I believe it is, then it means that a clear, prophetic sequence is laid out by Paul early in his apostolic ministry. Paul taught in 2nd Thessalonians 2 that the Rapture would occur before the “Day of the Lord” commences. It is not until after the beginning of the “Day of the Lord” that the Antichrist is released, resulting in the events described by him in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2. This is the only interpretation that provides hope for a discomforted people. Maranatha!

By Thomas Ice, PhD.

From: http://focusonjerusalem.com/istheraptur ... onians.htm


Quasar92

Heh heh...you, or anyone else, are going to challenge the translators of the version acclaimed as the standard in English Bible translation accuracy; not to mention every other English translation there is?

Congratulations; you just won first prize in the guffaw du jour contest.

Thanks for the entertainment.

 

[Quasar92]

Here you go again doing what you accuse others of doing. You say the scriptures I pointed out cannot mean what they say because you have misinterpreted what Revelation 19 says. Try dealing with what 2 Thessalonians actually says. If you want to try to refute my post fine, but deal with what I actually wrote. To take the time to respond to a post without dealing with the substance of the post is a waste of time.

The reasons you have the problems you do is because you lack the studies in eschatology necessaray to understand why your views presently stand in error. Review the following portion of 2 Thess.2:1-8 and its translation history on. There is no such thing as a post trib rapture of the Church. Review the Scriptursl facts that clearly reveal it precedes the tribulation.

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church

Mt.24:31:
And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in verses 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Verse 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Verse 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Verse 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Verse 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Heh heh...you, or anyone else, are going to challenge the translators of the version acclaimed as the standard in English Bible translation accuracy; not to mention every other English translation there is?

Congratulations; you just won first prize in the guffaw du jour contest.

Thanks for the entertainment.

The contents of what I posted was paraphrased, which you clearly understood. Don't bother me with your knit picking! See my post $118.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Heh heh...you, or anyone else, are going to challenge the translators of the version acclaimed as the standard in English Bible translation accuracy; not to mention every other English translation there is?

Congratulations; you just won first prize in the guffaw du jour contest.

Thanks for the entertainment.

From your lack of research and study as a qualified teacher of the Bible, you continue to support the schism created about the translation of 2 Thess.2:3, 4 centuries ago, that was originally translated and accepted by the first seven English Bible translations, for the 17 centuries previous to that! Review my post #118 to reveal those facts, for your edification.


Quasar92