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Featured The Hatred of God

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johan Abrahams, Aug 10, 2017.

  1. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    The Gospel of Thomas is not in the Bible.
    Jesus' mother was not the Holy Spirit, she was a woman called Mary. If Jesus had not been born of Mary, he would have not been human; only divine.
    John says that whoever acknowledges that Jesus came in the flesh, is of God, 1 John 4:2-3.

    The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, has, and does, reveal the truth to us; the truth of the Gospels and of Jesus - and nowhere has he told us that he is Jesus' mother.
     
  2. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    That's true. The Bible is a catholic creation. I am not a follower of their ideology. I seek Christ. Christ never said the Bible is where he is. When the Holy Spirit entered Jesus at Baptism, who's voice said "this is my son. Hear him"?
     
  3. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    No.
    The Jews had the OT Scriptures before Jesus was born and before the Catholic church was even heard of.
    The OT speaks of the Holy Spirit, and does not say that he will be Jesus' mother.

    And you will learn about him in the Bible, which was inspired by the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit also points people to Jesus.

    No, the Bible is the written word, which tells us about God, his creation, salvation and works, and reveals him to us. We are not to worship the Bible.
    But Jesus is THE Word of God, the word made flesh, God's final word. We would not know about Jesus, God the Father or the Holy Spirit if we did not have the Bible. No author could make up the story of sin, way to salvation and what God is like - it is revealed, and taught to us, in the Bible.

    At his baptism, when the Spirit alighted on Jesus in the form of a dove, God the Father said, "this is my Son, with him I am well pleased", Matthew 3:17; Luke 3:22. God said, "this is my Son, listen to him" at Jesus' transformation, Matthew 17:5; Mark 9:7; Luke 9:35.

    Incidentally, Jesus was conceived by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit may have empowered him at baptism, but he did not come to Jesus for the first time, on that occasion.
     
  4. Phantasman

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    Show me one verse in the OT of the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus received the Holy Spirit at the Chrism. And man never had or heard it,

    John:
    (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    You say God said "this is my son". So what do I do with this verse from Christ?

    John:
    37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

    The voice came from Heaven. The Holy Spirit came to man for the first time in Christ, her son.

    Show me different in scripture.

    Gods word is Christ. No one else. The OT people ate their bread and died. Those who eat the bread of Jesus live.

    John:
    32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
    33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
    34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

    How important is the OT?
    33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
    34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
    35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
    36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

    I don't really expect you to see it. Orthodoxy is strong and hates being exposed.

    But I only follow Christ and through understanding see the physical gods hold.
     
  5. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I'll show you several.
    Genesis 1:2
    "and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."
    1 Samuel 10:6
    "the Spirit of the Lord will come on you in power."
    1 Samuel 10:10
    "and .... the Spirit of the Lord came upon him."
    Psalms 51:11
    "Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me."
    Ezekiel 37:14
    "I will put my Spirit in you and you shall live."
    Joel 2:28
    "And afterwards, I will pour out my Spirit on all people."
    Those are just off the top of my head; how many more do you want?

    Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
    Luke 1:35
    "The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the most high will overshadow you". (The angel explaining how Mary, a virgin, would become pregnant.

    And Jesus always called the Spirit HE, never IT.

    The Holy Spirit was not yet poured out on all people, and able to live IN them, as prophesied by Joel; that happened at Pentecost.
    But he was certainly around, had been active in the life of the prophets, and was very present in the life of Christ.

    Where's the problem? God spoke audibly at Jesus' baptism and transfiguration. Not everyone, in fact I suspect, very few, heard the voice.
    Besides which, if you read John 5, you'll see that some people began persecuting Jesus after he had healed the crippled man at the pool. To them, Jesus says, "you have never heard God nor seen him."
    Jesus was God, so they were in fact looking at God; but they didn't believe and opposed him.

    I have.
    David, Ezekiel and the prophets spoke of the Holy Spirit. The angel told Mary that the Holy Spirit would come upon her, she'd become pregnant and give birth to a son - Jesus.
    You say you believe Christ; in the Gospels, Christ referred to Mary as his mother, John 2:1-5; John 19:26-27. He told the disciples that the Spirit would come upon them, and live in them, when he went away (ascended to heaven.)

    Yes, Jesus is the Word of God, John 1:1-2; his final word.
    But God spoke at other times - in the beginning, when he created, through his prophets and later, through the apostles and early church.

    Jesus thought it was very important. He quoted from it, referred to several characters from it and used it to defeat the devil in the wilderness. On the road to Emmaus he explained to the two people what was written about him - starting with Moses and the prophets, Luke 24:25-27. He told the Pharisees that they were searching the Scriptures to find eternal life, the Scriptures pointed to him (Jesus) yet they refused to go to Jesus to receive that life, John 5:39-40.

    I don't see what you're saying and I don't see that you have "exposed" anything.

    So presumably you trust him and believe the things he said?
    Good.
    Go and read what he said about the Holy Spirit, about Mary, his mother, and about the importance of the OT Scriptures.
     
  6. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    You read lies. None of the verses said Holy Spirit. The Psalmist said "holy Spirit" (small h).

    Having OT prophesies about the coming of a messiah isn't a Gospel message. Christ gave the Gospel message.

    Pentecost is Lukes rendition.

    John:
    21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
    22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
    23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

    Jesus had been glorified when he gave man the Holy Ghost.

    It really doesn't matter when the Holy Spirit was given, was it? But if you think it dictates OT Judaism, so be it. I do not, and nothing Jesus says, says that I need the OT. He spoke more against it than for it. Those who followed the OT killed Jesus in their ignorance. They knew not what they do.

    I have used Christs Gospel over and over and you use OT to refute me.

    Follow whats real to you and I'll do the same.

    And:
    Luke 1:35
    "The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the most high will overshadow you".

    You are led by a lost translation.

    And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    The power of the Highest is the Father. I see two here, not one. And Jesus is described as a holy thing (not of man).
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  7. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    It doesn't need to say "Holy Spirit".
    The text says either, Spirit of God, or Spirit of the Lord. There is ONE God and he is holy - what's your conclusion from that?

    It doesn't matter if he uses a capital, or a small, h; David is praying to God and says YOUR holy Spirit.

    Yes, of course. The OT prophesied that Jesus would come - that's what I'm saying.

    I don't think it "dictates OT Judaism", whatever that means.
    You made the claim that Jesus received the Holy Spirit only at his baptism and that before then, "no-one had heard of it".
    I am saying that I disagree and have shown verses from the OT that speak of God's Holy Spirit being given to people - though not permanently, or coming to live in them. I also quoted NT verses where the angel told Mary, Jesus' mother, that the Holy Spirit would overshadow her and she would become pregnant. IOW, there are a number of mentions of the Holy Spirit before Jesus' baptism.

    I quoted several verses from the NT, but you yourself asked me to show you where the Spirit is mentioned in the OT.

    The irony of all this is that you ask for Scriptural verses to prove certain statements - which I have done. You then claim I have a "lost translation" - yet you have quoted from the Gospel of Thomas, which isn't even in the Bible..
    And you have not produced ONE verse to back your statement that the Holy Spirit was Jesus' mother.

    You say you believe only Jesus. Good.
    Show me a verse where Christ says, "the Holy Spirit, who is my mother."
     
  8. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    You have showed me nothing that the Holy Spirit was in the OT. I showed you Gospel that it was never given to man until Jesus sent it. Post 24. The Holy Ghost was not yet given. It's Gospel. You are refuting Gospel to glorify the liar and murderer. The god who killed his own. Jesus Father doesn't judge so he never killed anyone. The OT god is jealous. Love is not jealous.

    Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost is nowhere in the OT. The Spirit of God is not the Holy Spirit.

    The Holy Spirit thing it pointless. The revealing of the Holy Spirit is through seeking all Christian texts. Not the Bible. The catholics taught orthodoxy. I am no longer orthodox.

    Jesus tells the Jews that the god they followed was the devil. He also says that Abraham did not hear God the Father.

    John:
    40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
    41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
    42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
    43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    The OT god is a murderer, plain and simple. The Jews and Islam are from Abrahams seed. Both follow the murderer. The catholics brought in the OT to surround the Gospel. The catholics adopted the god of murder. The Gospel stands on it's own. Jesus nor his Father ever murdered.

    See it as you wish.
     
  9. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    And I showed you in the Gospels where the angel told Mary that she would conceive a child by the Holy Spirit.
    John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from birth; that's in the Gospel too, Luke 1:15.

    Not true.
    And, with respect, you can't talk; you've quoted from a "Gospel" that isn't even in the Bible and keep repeating the idea that the Holy Spirit was Jesus' mother, without providing Biblical evidence.

    As there is only ONE God, who is Holy, in what way are the Spirit of God and the Holy Spirit different?

    So you ask me to show you ONE verse where the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the OT; I show you several and you dismissed all of them. Apparently the Spirit of a Holy God is not the same as the Holy Spirit. Apparently also it "doesn't count" in Psalm 51 because David used a small h for holy and not a capital letter, at least, he did in some English versions, whether or not the Hebrew says this is another matter.
    NOW you've changed again and are saying that the Holy Spirit is revealed through Christians texts and not the Bible. Presumably this is to justify your quotes from the Gospel of Thomas; though why you consider that the Bible is not a Christian text, is beyond me.

    Obviously not.
    Orthodoxy isn't bad, and it's not just Catholics who teach it.

    I don't believe he did say that, but I can't look up your references to discuss them because you - either deliberately, or mistakenly - don't give chapter numbers. John's Gospel has 21 chapters; which one are you referring to?

    No - there is only ONE God.
    You believe in Jesus, he believed - as all Jews do - that there is only one God.

    Jesus was a Jew, and went first to the Jews with the Good News. The apostles - including Thomas, whose "Gospel" you quoted - were all Jews, the first believers were all Jews; Christianity has its roots in Judaism.
    You say you believe in Jesus; he quoted from the Jewish Scriptures, said he had come to fulfil the Jewish law and quoted from Moses and the prophets - all Jews.

    No, they didn't.
    Jesus was Jewish and his Father is the God of the OT.

    Ditto.

    Still no verse to show that the Holy Spirit was Jesus' mother?
     
  10. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    Let's try again.

    Luke:
    35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    We have two spirits creating a fleshly born Jesus. The Holy Spirit AND the Highest Power, the Father. This was the way Jesus was begotten by the Father in Heaven in the beginning. John 1:1

    Do you see two or one. The Holy Ghost came upon Mary (not in her). The power of the "Highest" is who? God thew Father. There wasn't a fleshly man born, it was a "holy thing" (beyond any child). Not born into sin since it was holy and sinless.

    The son existed with the Father before becoming flesh. He was begotten by the Father. Who was the mother in the beginning? (the Bible doesn't tell you. The non Canon scriptures do).

    Part two.

    Matthew:
    16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
    17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    A voice came from heaven. But no man has ever heard the Father according to Jesus. At ANY TIME. How can it be the Fathers voice? It was the Holy Spirit, who came "over" Mary to use her physical womb. Jesus hated the flesh. He addressed Mary at the cross and said (basically) "this flesh is your son". Mary was flesh begotten flesh.

    John:
    And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

    No man can even conceive God or even imagine him. No one has ever head him.

    Genesis 21:
    And God said unto Abraham

    Deut:
    Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice

    The "voice of god" is throughout the OT. If Jesus says no one has heard him, how can the voice that says "this is my son" be the Fathers voice. It was the mothers, the Holy Spirit, who entered him and became his blood (drink the blood= Holy Spirit, eat the flesh= Jesus words) Together they reveal the true God.

    Only the son can reveal the Father to us, as Matthew says:
    27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    The OT never had this. Those men died.(Though Jesus saved those with faith as he entered Hades as the resurrection occurred). Which is why the OT saints appeared to many.

    Matthew:
    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  11. Strong in Him

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    Ok.

    No, there is ONE God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God.
    ONE God, three equal persons. Luke is saying that the power of God would come on Mary and the power of the Spirit would overshadow her. He is saying that the power of God would be on and completely surround her.

    The Trinity, ONE God, three persons, is not easy to understand. but sometimes we try to illustrate it by saying that as one man can be a Father, a son and a brother, and will relate to his family in different ways according to his role; so it is similar with God. God the Father created, sent Jesus and so on, God the Son forgives and saves and God the Spirit draws us to Jesus so that we can be forgiven and reconciled to God the Father.

    That's your interpretation; not what the Scripture says.

    John 1:1 says that the Word was WITH God in the beginning and was God. John 1:2 says that all things were made through the word. Verse 14 identifies this Word, he " became flesh and dwelt among us" - Jesus. Colossians 1:15 and Hebrews 1:3, say that everything was created through the Son; Jesus. Genesis 1:26-27 says, "let US make man in OUR image" - the Word, Jesus, and the Spirit were both with the Father at creation. In John 17:5 Jesus is praying to God and says "glorify me with the glory that I had with you before the world began."
    Jesus didn't start to exist when he was conceived; as the eternal word, God himself, he always existed. Jesus was the human name that was given to him when he became a human.

    You're saying that Jesus wasn't a real human being?
    That sounds to me like Gnosticism; a false belief that the early church had to deal with. One which said that Jesus had no human body, was only Spirit and did not really die on the cross.
    You tell me I need to believe the Gospels - the Gospels state that Jesus felt hunger, thirst, pain, sadness, joy, frustration etc. There is nothing at all in the Gospels to suggest that the 12 disciples were called by a Spirit and lived with a Spirit for 3 years.

    Who says there needed to be a mother?
    God is all powerful and can do all things. God is also Spirit, John 4:24 - Spirit is neither male nor female.

    Because there wasn't one.
    Jesus is God the Son. And there is only ONE God, so Jesus himself was/is God.

    The prophets heard God speaking to them. They gave their message to the people saying, "thus saith the Lord". Abraham heard God's voice, because he answered him.

    Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit - that's what I said - and born to Mary, his mother.

    Scripture?
    Strange that he took on flesh - lived as a human being - for over 30 years.

    Jesus was Mary's Son; that's what I said. Not the Holy Spirit's.

    No, the people Jesus was talking to had very probably not seen God, or not even heard his voice. But Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel, John the Baptist and Jesus had. Also, as Jesus was God, they were looking at him at that very moment; they just didn't believe it.

    Exactly. God spoke to people; that's what I said.

    They heard the voice of God; they didn't know that God was FATHER until Jesus came to reveal him to them.

    That's your interpretation and not standard Christian doctrine.
    Jesus said, "eat MY flesh". Elsewhere he said we are to obey his words too, but on this occasion he was talking about the flesh that you claim that he hated.

    That's what I've just said to you. Many people heard the word, or voice, of God; he was only revealed as FATHER when Jesus came.

    I don't know if this explains my position any better.
    But you still haven't given answers, or verses, for the previous claims you made:
    1) - that the Holy Spirit was Jesus' mother. I can see why you said that with Jesus being conceived by the Spirit, but he was born OF Mary. He was human, because Mary was his mother, and divine because he was conceived by God the Spirit. Jesus spoke about the Holy Spirit who would later be poured out on all, and live in believers - does this mean you believe we have Jesus' mother living in us?
    2) That the God of the Jews was a murderer; the Jews followed an evil God. No evidence to support this, and no answer to my comment that Jesus was a Jew - as was Thomas.
     
  12. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    Well, at this point I'm going to end my debate. When I show the Gospel message:
    The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee

    And you see one, I'll just assume you don't see "and". Since you appear to follow Tertullian's Trinity concept, it tells me you are invested in the emerging catholic (small c) theology. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. I've studied Catholocism and read of it's history. It's not one I would follow as it disputes Christs Gospel Message on many levels.

    But that's fine. I know the rules here and respect them. And would never ask one to follow me. I just use in the Canon what I can, to back my belief. All beliefs are based on faith and hope. There are no facts. And my own journey has been long and hard, being Orthodox myself for 26 years. You're not telling me anything I didn't live or understand years ago when I was Orthodox.

    My continual seeking took me into a higher spiritual understanding. And I cannot believe I was so naive before, and not seeing what was right before my eyes.

    May the Holy Spirit guide you in all things, no matter how you see it.
     
  13. Strong in Him

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    I don't even know what that is; I just follow the Gospel.

    I'm not a catholic, never have been and would never promote one denomination - I wish we didn't have them.

    That's probably one of the differences; I don't start with a belief and then use what I can from the Bible to illustrate/back it up, supplemented by things that aren't in Scripture.

    I don't worship the Bible, and don't take every bit of it literally; we need to know how to read and understand it. But the Bible is the authority. If anyone at all - even clergy/bishops - present things that aren't in Scripture and claim that they are Christian doctrine and that God told them; he didn't.

    If you believe you have "greater understanding" of God, based on something other than Scripture, be careful; I don't believe that's possible.

    Thank you; he does.
    May he guide you too.
     
  14. Johan Abrahams

    Johan Abrahams Member

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    Yep we need to find. Find the Marriage and the Ruling Authority of God!
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  15. Johan Abrahams

    Johan Abrahams Member

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    Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

    This the "evil generation" did. And all got "drunk of the wrath of her fornication. And all the kings/devils committed fornicaton with her.

    Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
    Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
    Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

    A new marriage would take place now. You can read my thread on it in The Marriage.
     
  16. Johan Abrahams

    Johan Abrahams Member

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    Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
    Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

    So God called us out of the human race and gave us a birth into the God race. We came out. Her punishment is death. The body didn't die but self did.

    Rev 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    And now we need to double on her according to what she did to us. Remember back the live she lived and what you got now. That is to double inflict pain on her.

    Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

    And self said I am in charge. But that was a lie. Self is dead and the soul living under self control should have been a widow but she said I am a queen.

    Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
    Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
    Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

    So now the real marriage is ready for the grown-up. Not the children. They still have to grow. The marriage for the grown up

    Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    is God taking her for a companion.

    God has many.

    Son 6:8 There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.
    Son 6:9 My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her.
    Son 6:10 Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners?

    Everyone in his/her personal relationship with God.

    and terrible as an army with banners?

    And to her is given another Life. That of the "fight"

    See the thread on the Judge and the Rider on the white horse.

    A new dispensation is dawning.

    Up to now the world has experienced the life of the children of God. In this new dispensation they will experience the Life of the wife of God.

    This will be the dispensation of taking over government of earth by the wife of God. See "The Kingdom of David"
     
  17. Johan Abrahams

    Johan Abrahams Member

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    God is taking us into another Marriage.
     
  18. Johan Abrahams

    Johan Abrahams Member

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    God is taking us into another Government.
     
  19. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    "Strong in Him,I don't even know what that is; I just follow the Gospel.

    That is Gospel. Luke 1:35

    I'm not a catholic, never have been and would never promote one denomination - I wish we didn't have them.

    If you believe the bible is the word of God, you follow the catholic ideology. (4th century to today). Protestants have existed for around 2-3 hundred years.

    That's probably one of the differences; I don't start with a belief and then use what I can from the Bible to illustrate/back it up, supplemented by things that aren't in Scripture.

    There are hundreds of Christian scriptures. The Canon is hand picked to match Catholicism.

    I don't worship the Bible, and don't take every bit of it literally; we need to know how to read and understand it. But the Bible is the authority. If anyone at all - even clergy/bishops - present things that aren't in Scripture and claim that they are Christian doctrine and that God told them; he didn't.

    The Bible isn't truth, Christs words are truth.


    If you believe you have "greater understanding" of God, based on something other than Scripture, be careful; I don't believe that's possible.

    I choose only the scriptures with Christs voice.
     
  20. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    The Gospel is the Good News of Jesus Christ, it's not "catholic ideology."

    The Bible is not catholic ideology.

    There are many, many Christian books that teach us about God, the Bible and other Christians' experience. But the books of the NT were selected because they were written by apostles, friends of apostles and were in line with the apostles' teaching. The apostles, as you know, were with Jesus for 3 years and personally taught by him.
    I don't know what you mean by "catholic ideology", but some of the things they believe in don't even seem to be in the NT; so it is definitely not a handbook of catholic dosctrine.

    If we didn't have the Bible, how else would we know about Jesus - even that he existed, never mind what he said and did?

    So the canon, i.e of Scripture, is handpicked to suit catholics and is about catholicism, it is not true or the word of God - and yet you follow the words of Christ which are recorded in the Bible?
    You also asked me to produce Scriptures to illustrate what I was saying earlier; yet you don't seem to have much faith in Scripture. How does that work?

    Q. How do you know that other "Christian Scriptures" are true; how do you test/measure them? Or do you believe anything that says "these are the words of Jesus"? Because if so, you will probably be susceptible to any cult that comes along - like the Moonies, whose leader said, "I have spoken with Jesus and he told me, in his own words, that I am the chosen one to .........". Christians reject this claim because it contradicts, and doesn't match with, Scripture. But if you believe that Scripture itself is untrue/unreliable, what do you do with such a claim?
     
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