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The Harvest At The End Of The Age

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by SongOnTheWind, Jul 17, 2021.

  1. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    So you believe you will sleep in the dust, like the OT saints, until resurrection day?
     
  2. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    I wanted to confirm what I already suspected, which is that you're using circular reasoning. You believe resurrection day is in the future because you believe the trumpet blast is in the future because you believe the resurrection is in the future. You don't have any actual reason to believe it's still future except that you believe it's still future.
     
  3. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    To say "his body died" implies that he is not his body, but that his body is only a vessel which means he is that which lives in that vessel. Obviously you're claiming that Jesus is a spirit living inside a body. That being the case, you are literally saying that Jesus did not die. Only his vessel died. And I know you don't want to say that so you're going to vehemently deny it and accuse me of not understanding, but I'm only pointing out to you where your logic inevitably takes you.
    Spirit, soul and body are better understood as "life, breath and body". Yes, three different things but not three self conscious entities. Only our body is who we are. The life is what was given to us by God, and our breath is evidence of our animation, but neither that life nor breath are what we are.

    The words "spirit" and "soul" are poor translations because they are very misleading. They would've made more sense to the people 400 years ago when the KJV was written but today people don't even know the difference between the two and use them interchangeably. That's why it's always best to go back to the original Greek.
    The reason you don't understand how it works is because your foundation is wrong. Your beliefs are built on the foundation that we live as spirits when we die, but our "bodies" will still be resurrected in the future. You simply can't reconcile those concepts. If you think it through, it makes no sense at all. Why would we need to be resurrected if we're already living as immortal spirits?
     
  4. jeffweedaman

    jeffweedaman Well-Known Member

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    Resurrection day is the last day , and heaven and earth pass away on the last day....not rocket science.

    Job 14

    10 But a man dies and lies prostrate.
    A person passes away, and where is he?
    11 As water evaporates from the sea,
    And a river becomes parched and dried up,
    12 So a man lies down and does not rise.
    Until the heavens no longer exist,
    He will not awake nor be woken from his sleep.


    13 “Oh that You would hide me in Sheol,
    That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You,
    That You would set a limit for me and remember me!
    14 If a man dies, will he live again?
    All the days of my struggle I will wait
    Until my relief comes.

    15 You will call, and I will answer You;
    You will long for the work of Your hands.
    16 For now You number my steps,
    You do not observe my sin.
    17 My wrongdoing is sealed up in a bag,
    And You cover over my guilt.


    Relief comes with the second coming when we are glorified and the ungodly are eternally separated. That' a really cool last day.


    2Thess 1
    This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
     
  5. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    I do not accept that God is limited to human endeavors.
     
  6. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    You are comparing your physicalness to God. Our soul lives in a dead body, and separated from our spirit. Can you define a dead spirit?


    John 1:1

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

    We are only in the image of God by our soul, our body is dead. It is not a person. Our spirit is not dead, but not with us, because it is Holy and cannot be part of sin. A dead spirit would be a demon. An entity given over to death, like the body is given over to death by being corruptible. But the soul is who we are, without body or spirit. The soul has no form. The soul is the image of God via the breath of God. Our body is the image of the Word that became flesh. Our spirit is the image of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is given in place of our spirit.

    Our spirit is not some life force that is in us. That is just the air moving through the body, via the blood and lungs. But without the Holy Spirit and the Word holding all things together, creation would dissolve into nothing.

    Do you deny that God Himself was the sacrifice? If you deny that, then you are separating the Trinity into different persons. The Trinity is one and the same at different points in time, when all 3 work as one.

    When Jesus gave up the Spirit on the Cross, it ended a brief moment when all three acted as One. God was the sacrifice, but giving up the Holy Spirit was God returning as well as the Holy Spirit back to a normal state of 3 persons. The body and soul would be in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights as prophecied. The Spirit preached in sheol and led forth instantly the bodies and souls of the OT firstfruits, all who were in Abraham's bosom. They were given incorruptible bodies and ascended when Jesus did, right after talking to Mary in the Garden. The firstfruits were in Christ from that point, on the Cross, the Atonement was accomplished. The hour that already was upon the earth was in that hour of the Cross as much as the hour of Lazarus coming out of the grave. Both giving proof that Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life along with all the firstfruits of the church. An ongoing phenomenon of all souls in Christ as the firstfruits. The last fruits, the living harvest are those alive and remain still in their dead bodies, that need to be resurrected, ie changed.
     
  7. Bob_1000

    Bob_1000 Well-Known Member

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    I think you are right about the "Sons of God" being revealed or maybe a better word is separated from the wicked Jews.

    The harvest is the "summer fruit", in other words it's the end of Israel as far as them having charge over the kingdom of God. God gathered the wheat (James, John, Paul, Mary, Martha etc.) and burnt the tares.

    Amo 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.
    Amo 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.
     
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  8. SongOnTheWind

    SongOnTheWind Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, I never saw it that way before.
     
  9. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    So that's a yes? Actually I 100% understand why you believe that because I used to believe it too. In fact, I still believe that it was true for all the OT saints and anyone who died prior to 70 AD. They did indeed sleep in the dust until resurrection day. I just no longer believe it's true for us today.

    I used to argue with people on this board that "the last day actually means the last day, when there is no more moon and no more sun", and people would say "no it means the last day of something something" and I would argue "It doesn't say that! It just says the last day." And yes, I also brought up examples like your Job example and other examples like "the dead know nothing", etc. It's quite clear that in the OT people did not go to heaven upon death but rather slept in the dust of the earth (ie. he slept with his fathers), just as God said they would "for dust you are and to dust you shall return".

    So all that is true, up until 70 AD, because I've since realized that Jesus must've been talking about the last day of that age because of all the other stuff he said and because of my new understanding of "heaven and earth" and a few other things like Jesus being the light that cuts through the darkness, etc. Back in those days they lived in darkness and death awaited them all and it was really big deal that Jesus came to end all that, and he did.
     
  10. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    Nobody said that. We're talking about what Jesus said and he said the gospel would be spread throughout the entire Roman world. That's a fact. It has nothing to do with God's "limitations" or human endeavours.
     
  11. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    Our spirit is not with us? This all sounds very weird. Even more weird than what I believe! :grinning:
     
  12. SongOnTheWind

    SongOnTheWind Well-Known Member

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    But when He comes again, every eye shall see Him, no? Why wasn't it a bigger deal at that time, then? Why wasn't it historically recorded as an event that happened? And why are we not in the New Jerusalem with Him right now, or in heaven with Him right now? When did the rapture happen?

    Sorry for the many questions, but I am very curious about how you have arrived that the view you now have.
     
  13. jeffweedaman

    jeffweedaman Well-Known Member

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    Don't be sorry , very good questions that preterists will find hard to legitimately answer.
    We havent been glorified as yet with immortality and the ungodly among us are not yet eternally separated from our presence...that much is clear.

    Your singing like a canary lol.
     
  14. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    I was talking about your interpretation. You are adding words to what Jesus said to stake your claim. That is the human endeavor that boggles the mind.
     
  15. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    This is a quote from Revelation 1:7
    “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.

    First of all, this is just six verses after Revelation 1:1 which says these are the things "which must shortly take place". This statement that the book of Revelation is about things which must soon take place is something I had glossed over for many years simply because I already "knew" that Revelation was about our future, but when I forced myself to really look at this and consider it I knew I could not simply continue to ignore it. So this is key to my change in understanding (but I still needed more convincing).

    As to this verse specifically, saying "
    every eye will see him" we need to understand this in light of the preceding statement which is "he is coming with the clouds". The clouds are symbolic of power and authority. (Not sure if you knew that, but I have an entire word doc full of examples that prove this point in case you ever want to talk about that specifically.). So given the symbolic nature of the first part of that sentence, and knowing that all this is a description of things that must have taken place a long time ago (because of "which must shortly take place") I have no choice but to assume that even "every eye will see him" is creative language, at least in the sense that it was not literally every eye, but rather everyone who was there (in Jerusalem) could not ignore what was happening, which is the wrath of God coming upon their city. So in that sense "every eye" saw him, or at least the power that he now has and the wrath that he poured out on Jerusalem.

    It was a very big deal. Did you know a sword of lightning hovered over the city for a year? Did you know people saw chariots and soldiers running around in the clouds above the city? Did you know that a ghostly voice was heard in the temple saying "Let us remove hence"? Did you know a man named Jesus cried "woe woe to Jerusalem" and said nothing else for 7 years prior to its destruction, only continually repeating that phrase never growing hoarse or tired, though he was ridiculed, beaten and whipped because they thought he was crazy? And there were other miraculous events that took place prior to the destruction of Jerusalem such that people knew these events were foreshadowing their destruction.

    Josephus said "These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming."

    And he said of the wise men in Jerusalem at the time ". So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. "

    70 AD was not only a big deal, it was the biggest deal, and it's a shame that we're not taught about it at all in church or Sunday school.

    It was, but in order to see it you have to understand that Jesus the man did not walk on earth at that time as so many imagine his return. He came back spiritually with vengeance. If you can accept that his return might be in that form then that opens up a whole new world of understanding.

    We are. We are the new Jerusalem. A city is its people, and Jerusalem is the capital city of the kingdom of God. Always has been, always will be. Jesus lives in us and we in him, so we can't be anymore "with him" than we are.

    There is no rapture. At least not the way you imagine it.
     
  16. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    I'm not adding any words at all. I'm simply looking up in a Greek lexicon what his words actually mean. You should do the same.
     
  17. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    And yet I answered them.
     
  18. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is what scripture teaches. What is the problem with that? The day that Jesus died, He told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that day in paradise and He also asked the Father to receive His spirit (Luke 23:43-46). Jesus's body was not resurrected until 3 days later, so He was clearly implying that His soul and spirit would live on in paradise (third heaven) even though He was physically/bodily dead.

    I don't see the problem here.

    According to who? Show me where it teaches this in scripture.

    Where does scripture teach that? I'm not going to take your word for it. Show me some scripture. Your entire post contains no scripture whatsoever. All opinion.

    You don't seem to know the difference between the two, either, as everything you're saying is vague and not being backed up by any scripture.

    No, the reason is because it's not revealed in scripture. You don't understand how it works, either. The fact that you don't even attempt to use scripture to back up what you're saying here is very telling.

    John said he saw the souls of dead believers in heaven and they were interacting with God. You don't want to accept that. That's on you.

    Because we're able to do things with bodies that we can't do just as spirits. That should be obvious, but you're taking something simple like that and making it convoluted.
     
  19. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How exactly did the entire "thousand years" already take place by 70 AD?
     
  20. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    We are to teach Josephus as equal to the Word of God?
     
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