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The Harvest At The End Of The Age

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by SongOnTheWind, Jul 17, 2021.

  1. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have no idea of what you were trying to say here. None. You can try again if you want or we can just agree to disagree, even though I don't even know what I'm disagreeing with since I can't understand what you're trying to say. It's probably best to just let this one go.
     
  2. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm sorry, where exactly in your post did you prove that angels have spiritual bodies? I must have missed that. When Paul talked about flesh and blood not entering the kingdom of heaven, he was referring to mortal human beings there, not angels. So, you proved nothing regarding angels by referencing 1 Corinthians 15.
     
  3. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    The fact you mentioned a fixed day when salvation shall be shut, this was being discussed in another thread just today. This discussion had to do with the little season after the thousand years. Assuming that is meaning in this age, do you think salvation shall be shut during the little season, or do you think it remains open during the little season?

    The reason why this might matter, if the first resurrection is tied to salvation, the text in Revelation 20 indicates that everyone that has part in the first resurrection, they shall reign with Christ a thousand years. If someone is saved during the little season, they obviously can't at that time also reign with Christ a thousand years if the thousand years are already in the past when they are initially saved.
     
  4. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yeah, I've gathered that from what you've said. But, scripture says that all the dead in Christ will be resurrected when Christ returns at the last trumpet. Your view contradicts that. I think we've already covered this enough, so it's time to agree to disagree.

    That's the only logical conclusion if you want to contradict the scriptures which say that the resurrection of the dead will occur when Christ returns at the last trumpet.

    What now? That isn't how I picture the resurrection. I'm sure you've read 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17? Whether people can be seen coming out of their graves or not, we all (the dead in Christ and those who are alive at the time) will be changed in an instant (1 Cor 15:50-54) and caught up to meet Christ in the air. Whether people on earth will see us up there "in the air", I don't know. But, you have clearly misunderstood my belief about what will happen. Hopefully, you understand it better now.
     
  5. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Read what he said again. I'll quote it here:

    I happen to know what Jeff believes (same as me), but I don't think you need to know that in order to discern what he was saying. First, he said that Jesus comes again on the last day. Then he said that God fixed a day in the future when the door to salvation will be shut, which will be on the last day. That means he was saying that the day God has fixed in the future when the door to salvation will be shut is the last day when Christ returns.

    So, the answer to your question of whether he thinks salvation shall be shut during the little season is no because he clearly said that he believes it will be shut on the last day, which he clearly indicated is the day Jesus comes again.

    I don't normally try to speak for other people, but I couldn't help it in this case.
     
  6. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It looks like you are the one that hasn't put any thought into it since you had to ask if the soul and spirit are two different things. Of course they are.

    1 Thess 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
     
  7. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is that a serious question? Have you not been reading my posts? If you don't know the answer already from my other posts, then I can only conclude that you are either not reading my posts carefully, or have already forgotten what I've said before.

    Also, do you believe in a future coming of Christ? If so, do you consider that to be His third coming?
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
  8. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You're not going to use spiritual discernment anymore and instead are just going to interpret things in a wooden literal fashion? It certainly makes no sense to think He was saying that we would never die in any way, shape or form since believers clearly do die physically/bodily. So, interpreting it literally the way you want to do makes no sense.
     
  9. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Since I apparently overlooked that fact, in regards to the last day, it simply means his interpretation is contradicting what the first resurrection is involving. Anyone saved after the thousand years couldn't possibly also have part in the first resurrection, since everyone having part in the first resurrection, they all, without exception, reign with Christ a thousand years. How some of you can reason some of these things and seeing it still making sense, is probably something I'll never understand in this lifetime. Either the first resurrection is tied to salvation or it isn't. Can't have it both ways. Can't have someone being saved after the thousand years and then claiming they too have part in the first resurrection. Because if they did, they too would reign with Christ a thousand years, something promised to every single person having part in the first resurrection.
     
  10. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I addressed this already in another post where you brought this up. The problem with what you're saying is that you seem to think that Christ is no longer reigning when the thousand years are over. Is that what you believe? Because what you're saying could only be true if that was the case. If it isn't (it's not - Isaiah 9:7) then you need to rethink what you're saying here.
     
  11. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    I'm asking because I want to establish a base line from which we can debate. Obviously I know that you believe Christ's coming is still future. I'm asking you to explain on what you base that belief, so that we can go from there.

    And yes, I also believe Christ will return in our future because the angels said that he would return the same way they saw him leave, so that hasn't happened yet.
     
  12. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    No, no. You're not understanding. I wasn't "asking" if a soul and spirit are the same thing. I know they're not. I was asking you to explain your statement where you said "my soul and spirit go to be with the Lord in heaven". You're talking about two different things here, so please explain to me how you think a soul and spirit are different, and how do these two different things both go to be the Lord?

    I'm assuming you believe a "spirit" to be that which lives inside of your body and retains your thoughts, emotions and memories when it leaves your body. So if that's the case, then what do you consider a "soul" to be? And how (in your mind) are a spirit and soul separate from each other, but still both able to go to heaven?

    You see? This doesn't make sense to me, so please explain your statement to me.
     
  13. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    My view does not contradict this at all. How can you still think my view contradicts scripture when I've explained it to you so many times already?

    Let me repeat: I believe the trumpet has already blown and at that time everybody who was in the grave was resurrected. That is literally what scripture says and that is literally what I believe. The only difference between us is that you think it's future, and I think it's past, but please don't tell me that I'm contradicting scripture because I'm not.
     
  14. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    Why are you asking me to prove that angels have spiritual bodies? I'm assuming they do because they are spirits. Don't you believe that? But what does any of this have to do with our discussion?
     
  15. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I've already explained that in other posts. That's why I said you either aren't reading my posts carefully or you've already forgotten what I've said. I've said to you several times now that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time at Christ's coming at the last trumpet. So, I obviously believe that His coming is yet future because I believe that the last trumpet has not yet sounded and not all of the dead in Christ have been resurrected yet. How would you not already know this unless you either didn't pay close attention to what I've said before or forgot what I said before (and not long ago) already?

    Why do you not believe that passages like 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 are referring to His future return?
     
  16. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    o.k. then, so we agree that the resurrection, whether it's past or future, would be invisible to those who are still in their physical bodies. So how then can you claim with absolute certainty that it hasn't happened yet?
     
  17. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    I'm trying to find the answer to my question in here and as far as I can gather your belief is based on the following two things:
    1. The trumpet has not yet sounded
    2. The dead have not yet been resurrected
    Is that all? If those are your only two reasons for believing the resurrection is future then I would ask you to prove that the trumpet hasn't sounded yet, and that the dead have not been resurrected yet.

    If you can't prove those two things, then that leaves the door open for a different understanding.
     
  18. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    The short answer is because Jesus very clearly stated in the first century that he would return before that generation passed away. He also stated in the book of Revelation that his return (among other events) would "soon take place".
     
  19. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Because I've thought your view contradicts scripture all along. No matter how many times you explain it, I will continue to believe it contradicts scripture.

    No, scripture does not indicate that the trumpet would be blown before the end of the age when Christ returns, which has not yet happened.

    You are contradicting scripture because Paul indicates that ALL of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:14-17). That can't possibly have happened in 70 AD because there have been plenty in Christ who have died since then and it wouldn't be possible for them to be resurrected at Christ's coming at the last trumpet if it already sounded.

    Tell me this. How do you reconcile your view with what Paul taught here:

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

    Paul here is giving the order of bodily resurrections unto bodily immortality. We know that's the context of what he's talking about by way of reading the rest of 1 Corinthians 15 where he talks about the resurrection of the dead at the last trumpet and them, along with those who are alive at the time, all being changed to have immortal bodies.

    The order of resurrections that Paul gives is that Christ Himself was the first to be bodily resurrected unto immortality and then, next in order, are those who belong to Him at His coming. And that's it! There is no mention of anyone else being resurrected after that. You know why? Because no one else is resurrected after that. If there was, then Paul would have inexplicably left them out, which would make no sense when his point was clearly to show who would be resurrected unto bodily immortality and when.
     
  20. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yet, you do believe in His future return, so how do you determine that those passages I referenced are speaking of a past coming of Christ instead of the future coming of Christ?
     
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