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The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America Thread

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by Justin-H.S., Feb 4, 2022.

  1. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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  2. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    no one is swiping at you. I didn’t think it was wise to post this thread in the beginning, and then came many justifications as to why it was wise to have such a thread. so, I responded each time.

    no swiping.
     
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  3. rakovsky

    rakovsky Newbie

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    If your spiritual house, your parish, is really that bad for you, why not join OCA, AOCNA, or another?
     
  4. rakovsky

    rakovsky Newbie

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    Probably because its narrowest focus is on police killings of blacks, not, say, discrimination against blacks in general.
     
  5. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 864511320 Supporter

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    On October 16, 2018, the Special Investigative Committee (SIC) released Phase II of the PricewaterhouseCoopers investigative report to the Archdiocese, along with a summary communication based on the report.[65]

    It concluded that there was no evidence that St. Nicholas funds were improperly paid to any individuals employed by or associated with the Archdiocese, and no evidence or allegation that fraud was committed in connection with the St. Nicholas project. Rather, the cost overruns appear to have been the result of change orders agreed to by Archdiocese decision-makers to address architectural concerns or enhance the design of SNCNS.
     
  6. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    I am comparing victims of an outright racist massacre( not acknowledged on their website) to a person ( unfortunately) killed in debatable circumstances that they uphold as a martyr.
     
  7. rakovsky

    rakovsky Newbie

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    OK.
    I am explaining the rationale why they would do that in line with their mission focus. It doesn't mean that BLM doesn't care about the victims in Charleston.
     
  8. rakovsky

    rakovsky Newbie

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    Statement Regarding the Arrest of Jerome “Jerry” Dimitriou - 2019 - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
    Didn't the PWC report conclude that it found nothing illegal because funds from St Nicholas were transferred to pay other, unrelated GOARCH expenses, thus making the transfer of funds purely an internal GOARCH matter? If the funds got transferred from the Shrine to unrelated GOARCH expenses, AND if Dimtrou acquired overcharged GOARCH personnel "expenses", then what?

     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2022
  9. Justin-H.S.

    Justin-H.S. (Constantine Option)

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    Because I was advised by many on this forum (and posting in this thread) to stay in my parish so I am. Doesn’t mean I can’t call out the faults of the hierarchs.

     
  10. rakovsky

    rakovsky Newbie

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    No one is forcing you to stay an official member of a parish or jurisdiction in the US where you are unhappy for a legitimate, canonical reason. The Quran asserts that "There is no compulsion in religion." Isn't Church life supposed to be even better?

    You should avoid church-hopping over something minor. Imagine that you change your membership to someplace new and something else minor crops up. But EO Churches have no requirement to instruct people that they have to stay in a parish where they are hurting for a legitimate reason.

    I admire Abp. Elpidophoros for marching against police killings, but "First Without Equals", which he formulated in an article years ago, is not something I can get right in my brain. If "First Without Equals" is true and canonical, then who is ideally supposed to be supreme, the Bishop of Rome or the Bishop of Constantinople?

    Due to this current unfortunate MP-CP conflict, if I moved to an area where there was a CP church and a non-CP Church, I would typically want to pick the latter to belong to.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2022
  11. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    I really hear you, but when you feel like that, I recommend thinking about how your own sins might disappoint others around you looking for a Christian example.
     
  12. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    Yeah, but even when you’re really right, you need to start in your own church. Fr Matt is right that you need to be really careful, and when we want in anger, we aren’t generally being careful. It means to be full of care, of concern and wishes for both the betterment and the best for those hierarchs. I feel that the worldliness of lay folk at a Greek parish in the US were a contributing factor in my mother’s decision to leave them and turn to Islam. So I have my own axe that I could grind. But my own sins keep threatening to become a beam in my eye.
     
  13. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    Orthodox teaching on marriage, specifically as applied to two practicing Orthodox Christians. If they really accepted it, then we would see essentially no divorces and very few remarriages in the Church. When both are saying, “I believe in loving and forgiving my neighbor and my enemy seventy times seven (= always)”, and actively trying to practice it, then these things should not be. (That’s different from having one adulterous spouse that is truly unrepentant.) But they are, and the justifications are those of the pop psychology of the world, all the “good reasons” the world has to offer for divorce. The words of St John Chrysostom or other enlighteners of the Church have less weight than Dr Phil and Oprah in real terms. I’m experiencing a flat-out ongoing epidemic in my parish, and among many others that I know. Actually saying that we need to hold a standard that insists on unconditional love (agape, the self-sacrificial kind) and faithfulness to and beyond the grave is really unpopular, especially among those that have done it and think what they did to be right and “the best thing”.

    But I don’t want to go on and on about that here. It is demonstrable that Christ gave some pretty hard commands about marriage that a great many of us in the Church have disobeyed, and that a significant number of people think those hard sayings inapplicable to some Christians for the reasons that the world gives.

    That’s one good example. It’s not the only one. My point here is that we are ready to be eclectic in our faith as soon as holding to what the fathers taught becomes inconvenient or hard. And while the fact that people in the Church sin couldn’t shake my faith, the fact that they can dismiss or deny well-established Christian doctrine did. So I think there ought to be a place for a person whose faith is being shaken to come and raise the issues that are feeding his doubt, and hopefully, grow past that doubt.
     
  14. rakovsky

    rakovsky Newbie

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    Hi Rusmeister,

    I'm not sure that you understand the issue. Some people can try to work in their own Church, like if they are in the Assembly of God and want to bring it to Orthodoxy, or if they are in GOARCH and want to try to bring it to the doctrine of only "First Among Equals."

    The person can go to their parishioners, priest, and bishop, and their answer can be "No," and then what is your advice, to stay in the Assembly of God or in GOARCH, and keep trying to "work" to bring them to doctrinal orthodoxy?

    Your answer will probably be to me, correctly, that GOARCH is not Assembly of God. I agree. However, the fundamental issue is what to do in a situation where a person has a legitimate, canonical reason to be unhappy in their jurisdiction. Certainly, trying to talk to the parish about the issue is a good idea, but what happens when that doesn't work? How long are you going to demand that a person stay in that situation that is unhappy for them and try to change a situation where they make no headway?

    People have natural limits as to how much they can push until they burn out themselves.

    Let's be clear, "First Without Equals" is a major issue. If it's true, then we need to figure out whether Rome or Constantinople is supposed to be the institutional head of all Christians. If it's false, then someone is wrongly trying to give someone or their synod power over everyone else.
     
  15. rakovsky

    rakovsky Newbie

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    I don't know if there would be "essentially no divorces," because church teaching on marriage is not the only factor on the topic.

    Imagine that EOs were as strict on divorce as the Catholic church, yet all other factors in terms of Christian doctrinal compliance remained the same. You could get a "young Stalin childhood" situation where a kid grows up in a family so abusive that 19th century Georgians would agree that it's wrong, yet Keke isn't allowed to divorce "Beso". In that case, there be very few divorces, but it would be a very bad situation nonetheless.

    So simply dedication to EO teaching on marriage, which is not as strict as in the RC Church, would not by itself necessarily entail "essentially no divorces."
     
  16. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 864511320 Supporter

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    that is correct.
    no, that is not the case.
    The funds were used to pay for change orders.

    moot, as that was not the case. The funds were used to pay for change orders. They were not utilized for "unrelated expenses".

    linkage to the report summary
     
  17. rakovsky

    rakovsky Newbie

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    Hi Fender.

    I recall reading this about an issue with a GOARCH project's funding that turned up about that time as concerns over St Nicholas Shrine. The theory that I read was that GOARCH's managers did not do anything illegal because they only shifted GOARCH's funds from one allocation to another, internally within GOARCH. It wasn't as if they took 10000$ from the pension fund and transferred it to a private cruise line.

    The NY POST reports:
    St. Nicholas Church and National Shrine Featured on 60 Minutes - The National Herald

    https://www.atlgoc.org/s/Spring2018.pdf

    Even outside of this issue of a transfer of funds from a restricted account, the St Nicholas Shrine funding issue looks shady. The PWC report is saying that the funding issues are the result of the real costs turning out later to be far higher than the original estimates. However, should that really be a surprise, considering that the architect has a history of projects that turn out to cost much more than originally budgeted, projects that turn out sometimes never to be completed because of this discrepancy. In that case, why did GOARCH pick the highest bidder for the project? Articles online like the "Whistleblower" one above are raising lots of good questions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2022
  18. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    we all should know it’s false. there is no “if” in this regard.
     
  19. rakovsky

    rakovsky Newbie

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    What I've seen and heard from the CP and GOARCH seem like selective quotations from Church history, at least sometimes misinterpreted. IIRC, Canon 9 at first glance seems ambiguous as to the CP's appellate authority, whereas Canon 28 is specific and not giving the CP the power that it claims.

    It reminds me of how Fr. Josiah Trenham described Calvinist/Reformed use of quotations of Church Fathers like Augustine as "selective."
     
  20. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    agreed, sadly
     
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