The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America Thread

Justin-H.S.

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rakovsky

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I like Black Lives Matter. If CP. Bartholomew wants to do Environmentalism, or if GOARCH even neglects evangelizing non-Greeks, OK, it's not a church-breaking problem for EOs.

The critical problem that the CP poses for the Orthodox Church is the CP's claim to arbitrary unilateral supreme universal jurisdiction over all EOs, and its practical imposition of this claimed power over the objections of other autocephalous EO Churches, as the CP announced in its October 11, 2018 decision:
“Third, to accept and review the petitions of appeal of Philaret Denisenko and Makary Maletich and their followers who found themselves in schism not for dogmatic reasons, in accordance with the canonical prerogatives of the Patriarchate of Constantinople to receive such petitions by hierarchs and other clergy of all the autocephalous Churches. Thus, the above mentioned have been canonically reinstated to their hierarchical or priestly rank, and their faithful have been restored to communion with the Church;
Confirmed: Ecumenical Patriarchate removes anathemas, enters into communion with schismatics (+VIDEO)
 
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ArmyMatt

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You can ignore the thread.

seeing as how I am a priest, and I know there are solid members of the Greek Archdiocese who are on this forum, no I can’t.
 
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rakovsky

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Suppose hypothetically that the Antiochian hierarchy syphons funds destined for war refugees into its hierarchs' coffers. Suppose, as evidence shows, that GOARCH staff pocket funds designated for St. Nicholas shrine in NYC. It's an internal church problem and Antiochian parishioners and GOARCH should be concerned. But is this a catastrophic ecumenical Orthodox Church crisis? Should Antioch and GOARCH be "cut down to size", dismantled, suspended? No way. Just the bookkeeping needs to be fixed, funds need to be used correctly. The same principle for that matter applies to lots of organizations.

In initiating the Reformation in England, King Henry VIII performed a hostile investigation and created a propaganda scandal against financial abuses and other abuses in England's monasteries. Henry's "solution" was to close and often physically destroy the monasteries and capture their funds. Was Henry acting out of a loving concern for monasteries, or because he really wanted to take their assets? The dissolution of the monasteries fit into the new Anglican doctrinal rejection of monasticism, which went beyond just concern over financial malfeasance. What presented itself as some financial ethical "investigation" was really a pretext for destruction of a major part of England's longstanding Christian tradition.

So criticism can be healthy if it's directed in a positive, supportive way. Opposition to police brutality is a real ethical concern. We in the OCA also had a well known financial scandal that we were able to successfully address. GOARCH is a Christian EO Church.

The real breaking crisis with GOARCH at the moment is not even GOARCH per se, but fixing the CP's relations and status of equal authority with the rest of the Orthodox Churches.
 
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Justin-H.S.

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I know there are solid members of the Greek Archdiocese who are on this forum, no I can’t.

Like me? (GOA, here)

Thanks for looking out for us. Our hierarchs are colluding with the satanic American government to agitate for war with Russia. I promise we’re not all on board with the geopolitical machinations of our hierarchy.
 
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Justin-H.S.

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Greek theologian: Patriarch Bartholomew is acting against Orthodoxy

From the article:
In an article by Protopresbyter Theodoros, published by the edition, it is said that after the collapse of the USSR, a “political and ecclesiastical demarcation” was achieved between Russia and Ukraine.

However, according to the professor, “cultural ties between the two nations, as well as ecclesiastical dependence on the Russian Church, still persisted, which, unfortunately, Patriarch Bartholomew is acting against, collaborating with the Western crusaders, who ruined Byzantium and desecrated Constantinople in 1204."

According to the Archpriest, Patriarch Bartholomew “is de facto acting against the Orthodox Church”, and “the goal of the heretical West, instigated by the devil all the time, is to dissolve the Orthodox Church, i.e. the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and de-Christianize the Orthodox East in the way it had already de-Christianized itself."
 
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ArmyMatt

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Like me? (GOA, here)

Thanks for looking out for us. Our hierarchs are colluding with the satanic American government to agitate for war with Russia. I promise we’re not all on board with the geopolitical machinations of our hierarchy.

it’s not so much me looking out for you or anyone, but to single out the Greeks (as if ROCOR, OCA, Antioch, etc. don’t have their issues and flubs) isn’t a good look, especially on a public forum like this.
 
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JM

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Greek theologian: Patriarch Bartholomew is acting against Orthodoxy

From the article:
In an article by Protopresbyter Theodoros, published by the edition, it is said that after the collapse of the USSR, a “political and ecclesiastical demarcation” was achieved between Russia and Ukraine.

However, according to the professor, “cultural ties between the two nations, as well as ecclesiastical dependence on the Russian Church, still persisted, which, unfortunately, Patriarch Bartholomew is acting against, collaborating with the Western crusaders, who ruined Byzantium and desecrated Constantinople in 1204."

According to the Archpriest, Patriarch Bartholomew “is de facto acting against the Orthodox Church”, and “the goal of the heretical West, instigated by the devil all the time, is to dissolve the Orthodox Church, i.e. the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and de-Christianize the Orthodox East in the way it had already de-Christianized itself."

Interesting read. Thanks.
 
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Justin-H.S.

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it’s not so much me looking out for you or anyone, but to single out the Greeks (as if ROCOR, OCA, Antioch, etc. don’t have their issues and flubs) isn’t a good look, especially on a public forum like this.

Disingenuous to suggest the leading hierarchs of those jurisdictions are roiling in controversy quite consistently and regularly as the GOA.

Anyway,

“The Church is a hospital for souls.”

[closes during pandemic]

What kind of hospital closes during a pandemic?

 
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All4Christ

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it’s not so much me looking out for you or anyone, but to single out the Greeks (as if ROCOR, OCA, Antioch, etc. don’t have their issues and flubs) isn’t a good look, especially on a public forum like this.
Agreed 100%.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Disingenuous to suggest the leading hierarchs of those jurisdictions are roiling in controversy quite consistently and regularly as the GOA.

Anyway,

“The Church is a hospital for souls.”

[closes during pandemic]

What kind of hospital closes during a pandemic?


I didn’t actually say the hierarchs of other jurisdictions were as controversial as those in the GOA. what I said was it’s unwise to make a thread solely about controversy in the GOA.
 
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Justin-H.S.

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I didn’t actually say the hierarchs of other jurisdictions were as controversial as those in the GOA. what I said was it’s unwise to make a thread solely about controversy in the GOA.

You allege it’s “unwise” because vampires recoil in the sight of a crucifix. If the GOA did something good it would go in this thread, too. That you didn’t consider that a possibility precedes its reputation.

Newest drop: co-sponsoring a globohomo meeting to prepare for Agenda 2030 because wth not.
Upcoming UN Event Co-Sponsored by Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America - From the Archdiocese - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
 
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rusmeister

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I think Rakovsky hits the right note in asking whether it is a general Orthodox concern, or an internal affair. Some things affect all of us; others do not. I think there IS a legitimate concern that Justin has, whether he expresses it well or not, and Fr Matt IS right to call for care in any public criticism.

I've got my own "-judice" against the GOA; whether it is "pred-" or "post-" (TM: I've got dibs on coining the word "postjudice" :) ). But when you are talking about a whole archdiocese, you have to consider the lay folk as well as the hierarchy. No picture is simple. I DON'T like BLM, for example - I can see equal and opposite dangers in both unconditional criticism and unconditional support of the police, and having been a victim of police abuse myself, I really sympathize with others who have suffered it, but BLM is decidedly racist, declaredly Marxist, and is part of the general move by the super-wealthy to divide the citizenry against itself. Not to argue that here, but to point out that we can all easily find things that we disagree with each other on.

So what IS of general concern? Well, I think (as a correctable opinion) that AFR is unduly influenced by financing from American Greek Orthodox sources, and this has led to its holding positions that have been held to be controversial among us, as I have seen both here in TAW and in what I have seen people express elsewhere. Is that directed by the GOA hierarchy? Honestly, I don't know, although insofar as the positions match what the Greek Church outside the US has been moving toward, together with the EP, it fits like a glove on one's hand. AFR reaches out to all of us. It is not a mere in-house organ. It has real influence in the general English-speaking Orthodox world.

These things are part of a larger picture, not unconnected to the split of the Church in the Ukraine, which is part of the general split between the Russian Church and the Greek Church.

And the one thing I would defend Justin on: failing or refusing to address these issues leaves at least some, if not many or most of us, wondering whether this really IS the Church of Christ. For me personally, grasping that many people in the Church do not accept the authority of Church Tradition to correct them has been a real shocker, which caused a major spiritual crisis in my own life. Do we accept the common authority of the consensus of the fathers, or are we just Protestants with better vestments? It certainly has tempted me to walk away, though there is nowhere to go.

I suppose these questions appear in every age, especially when hierarchs go wrong, as I believe HH the EP is now, and leading the Greek Church on a path of the modern world, rather than the eternal Church. But many Greek hierarchs and layfolk are dismayed by these things. It's not like they all agree with what's been happening. Similarly, the Russian Church has had its very real problems, and I described my own recent encounters with one of them (the resurgence of Stalinsim). So rather than some kind of condescending "They are bad, and we 'righteous' Christians are condemning them" (which is how a thread like this can really come across), we need a lot more compassion, and discernment, to see whether we SHOULD raise a particular issue or not, and to govern the spirit in which we raise it.
 
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ArmyMatt

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You allege it’s “unwise” because vampires recoil in the sight of a crucifix. If the GOA did something good it would go in this thread, too. That you didn’t consider that a possibility precedes its reputation.

Newest drop: co-sponsoring a globohomo meeting to prepare for Agenda 2030 because wth not.
Upcoming UN Event Co-Sponsored by Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America - From the Archdiocese - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

I allege it because the first post, prior to being edited, basically said since the GOA keeps dropping the ball, let’s have a thread where we can track it.

it wasn’t let’s have a thread to track the good and the bad that the GOA is doing.

I allege it’s unwise not because vampires recoil at a crucifix, but rather that I don’t think it’s Van Helsing holding the crucifix.
 
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rakovsky

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And the one thing I would defend Justin on: failing or refusing to address these issues leaves at least some, if not many or most of us, wondering whether this really IS the Church of Christ. For me personally, grasping that many people in the Church do not accept the authority of Church Tradition to correct them has been a real shocker, which caused a major spiritual crisis in my own life. Do we accept the common authority of the consensus of the fathers, or are we just Protestants with better vestments? It certainly has tempted me to walk away, though there is nowhere to go.
What specific case are you thinking of where people don't accept Tradition?

Typically the CP couch their arguments in terms of canons, as if the canons give the CP supreme authority over all EOs.

Back in the 15th century, Turkey replaced the pro-Uniate CP with an anti-Uniate one, which was conducive to Turkey's geopolitics. Then in the period of Greek Independence revolts, the Ottoman government killed one or more of the Patriarchs, replacing them with more compliant ones. Then in the 1950's, the US brought in CP Athenagoras on a special airplane, and his successors have seemed to be similar to CP Athenagoras. CP Athenagoras' predecessor was sent to retirement in Switzerland.
 
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Justin-H.S.

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I allege it because the first post, prior to being edited, basically said since the GOA keeps dropping the ball, let’s have a thread where we can track it.

it wasn’t let’s have a thread to track the good and the bad that the GOA is doing.

I allege it’s unwise not because vampires recoil at a crucifix, but rather that I don’t think it’s Van Helsing holding the crucifix.

So, I edited the original post because I took into consideration your feelings, and you keep swiping at me even after it was edited that’s on you.

The OP (edited long before your constant swiping last night) doesn’t say one way or the other. If the EP and Abp repented of their ways of allying themselves with anti-Christian Western governments and their anti-Christ ideologies, that would especially go in here. If the GOA hierarchs woke up and by God’s grace became the most trad jurisdiction known to man, do you think I wouldn’t put that in here? I’d be happy to post that news.

Would that happen? It’s up to God. We’re the ones praying for our wayward hierarchs at church, gritting our teeth while the rest of the Church laughs at us for having an Archbishop who’s aligning himself (and by proxy, us GOA laity) to the secular woke ideology.

You think we like our situation? At least your hierarchs aren’t blatantly p!ssing in your face and calling it “rain.”
 
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