The Greatness of the Great Commision

[BeyondET]

what’s up with the signs in Marks great commission

to pick up snakes drink poison drive out demons speak in tongues touch the sick and heal.

 

[Hammster]

He is proclaiming that He is God.

That’s all?

 

[Hammster]

Nations are not disciples, but individuals only can become a disciple (learner/student), but what are they learning to become?

When Jesus says “I am with you” how does that compare with Paul saying: Acts 17: 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us? This could also be translated “at everyone’s elbow”, so is He literally there all the time?

It seems to be our privilege and honor to allow the Holy Spirit to work through us making disciples, who can also have the Spirit working through them making disciples, but why this method, because it seems so slow?

The 12 disciples had Jesus to talk with them individually, listen to them, spend lots of time with them, teach them, corret them, mentor them and Love on them, so how is it fair for us to not have Jesus do the same for us individually?

If Christ’s Spirit is in the individual Christian living through that Christian, then the nonbeliever has the same opportunity as the 12, by the Christian being Christ like. This is the system Christ taught us and the best and only way the Great Commission can be fulfilled. A Christian is to have a small group of students following him as he follows Jesus and thus making disciples like himself (which is like Christ) that can go out and have their own small group. If on average just one disciple maker is made per year, then you run out of people on earth (all 8 billion+) in just 36 years. This seems to be the method Christians in communist China are following to some extent.

I’m sorry that you think that Jesus got it wrong.

 

[Hammster]

what’s up with the signs in Marks great commission

to pick up snakes drink poison drive out demons speak in tongues touch the sick and heal.

That’s a textual variant.

 

[BeyondET]

That’s a textual variant.

A variant an alternative or differential doesn’t seem completely correct an absolute truth

 

[bling]

I’m sorry that you think that Jesus got it wrong.

If you interprete this phrase to me you make disciples of "nations" then how do you baptize a nation instead of baptizing individuals?

 

[The Liturgist]

His only gospel was the Gospel of the Kingdom according to Him. What He commanded was to reject the ways of man, repenting/changing our ways to the ways of the Kingdom which were His commandments.. to put the will of God before our own thus loving all as self. A counter-culture to the world man has made in our own self serving image. All else is later doctrine or religion. He told His apostles to spread the Gospel of the Kingdom. His Kingdom come, His will be done in earth as it is in Heaven.

Luke 16: 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luke 24: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Luke 4: 43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.

Mark 1: 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matthew 4: 23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom...

Luke 8: 1 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 10: 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

Mark 16: 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized [in the Holy spirit] shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Matthew 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Perhaps the end would come if they taught the right Gospel.

(Paul)

Acts 19:8 He (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the Kingdom of God

Acts 28: 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Acts 28: 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

There is only one Gospel, that which is reflected in the interpretation of the Nicene Creed and the other articles of the CF.com statement of faith (I think if the 350 Fathers at Nicaea or the 150 at Constantinople, where the Creed took its present form, knew about the problems the rest of the CF.com statement of faith addresses, such as widespread disbelief in the legitmacy of the apostolate of St. Paul, they would have added clauses to deal with it.

Additionally, I personally interpret the Gospel using the Apostle’s Creed, and various creedal hymns, including the Eastern Orthodox version of Quincunque Vult (also known as the Athanasian Creed although we have no reason to believe St. Athanasius wrote it), which is quite different from the Western version in that it lacks the filioque, and can be divided into two sections, rather than three, and additionally the creedal hymns Te Deum Laudamus and Ho Monogenes, which I feel reflect the Miaphysite and Chalcedonian Christological models which I am most comfortable with, however, the neo-Nestorian model many Protestants believe in (based on discomfort with the idea of Mary as the Mother of God, and therefore, a certain separation of the humanity and divinity of our Lord, without the principle of Communicatio Idiomatum that we see in Lutheran and Patristic theology).

That’s a textual variant.

The Snake-Handling Pentecostals in Appalachia seem to regard it (the longer ending of Mark) as the most important pericope in all of scripture. I believe they are misinterpreting it however; if the pericope is genuine and not psuedepigrapha, it seems reasonable to assume the context is the same as a similar verse relating to the commission of the Seventy, which is to say, God will protect from certain meaningless accidents and diabolical attacks those who are serving Him in a specific way relating to the propagation of the Gospel and the reception of people into the Christian faith, and the exercise of Christian acts of spiritual and temporal mercy, such as catechizing the youth or tending to the sick and visiting those isolated or imprisoned, but, it does not sanction nor encourage the deliberate and reckless handling of venomous snakes, scorpions, and also blowtorches (yes, I have seen a video of a snake handling Pentecostal pastor concluding a service by passing a blow torch over his hand, which is possible for the same reason that walking on hot coals is possible, that being the insulative characteristic of the body, but also extremely dangerous even compared to firewalking; I think firebreathing is the only stunt more dangerous (I recall an interesting case in the 1990s case of a beautiful young woman who performed as a firebreathing stuntwoman at a resort in Hawaii; on one occasion, the wind shifted, causing horrific burns to the right half of her face and requiring considerable plastic surgery, although the extent they were able to repair the damage, using the then-novel technique of skin synthesis, was impressive, so that she regained an attractive visage, although obviously not as attractive as it had been before the horrible accident).

 

[The Liturgist]

I’m sorry that you think that Jesus got it wrong.

Indeed, that sort of cellular Christianity is not reflective of the early church, nor does it reflect accurately the Catacomb Church in the USSR or the secret churches in China, where in mainland china the Chinese Orthodox Church, an autonomous part of the Russian Orthodox Church, was suppressed (there is a beautiful cathedral in Harbin that is just being used as a museum).

Another problem with the model @bling proposes is that such small discipleship groups have a bad record when it comes to pastoral abuse. This has been the case both with individual groups, and also, discipleship groups created under the aegis of some megachurches. I much prefer the model of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches where one has freedom to seek out and follow a gerons or geronda (spiritual elder or elderess) on ones own, if one feels so inclined, with broad discretion on the part of the laity about how and if they desire that. I like those churches which afford the faithful a great amount of freedom, which also includes Anglicanism, Lutheranism and Methodism (the Reformed tradition, and Congregationalism within it, of which I am a part, historically seems to have been hit-or-miss in this respect, with some Reformed and Congregational churches excelling and others being more repressive. For example, in far too many of UCC parishes, with a solid exception in the form of the small grouping of traditionalist Faithful and Welcoming parishes, which I believe number 75, at most, someone who was pro-life or adhered to a Scriptural view of marriage, might receive a cool reception.

 

[Hammster]

If you interprete this phrase to me you make disciples of "nations" then how do you baptize a nation instead of baptizing individuals?

I interpret it that way because it’s what Jesus said.

 

[Mr. M]

I interpret it that way because it’s what Jesus said.

That interpretation may be supported by the translation, but only as "a remnant of every nation",
if you believe the wicked (tares) will be removed from the kingdom.
As to the translation, Jesus is saying "make disciples of all nations"=pas ethnos, which
is translated as nation, and also Gentile, but should be understood as "ethnic group", or
of "every ethnicity" because the statement reflects the inclusive nature of the kingdom being
proclaimed, as the rest of the New Testament supports: "a great multitude which no one could number, of (or, from) all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues". Revelation 7:9
Therefore, when Christ prophesied that "ethnos will rise up against ethnos", most translate "nation
against nation". Yet in my lifetime the most barbaric, genocidal acts of war have been committed as
acts of ethnic cleansing, of Ethnic group rising against ethnic group. This is a sound way of comprehending Matthew 24:7, IMO

 

[fhansen]

That’s like saying that you don’t think anyone can be saved.

No, when He said to make disciples of all nations, that’s what He meant.

oh

 

[Hammster]

That interpretation may be supported by the translation, but only as "a remnant of every nation",
if you believe the wicked (tares) will be removed from the kingdom.
As to the translation, Jesus is saying "make disciples of all nations"=pas ethnos, which
is translated as nation, and also Gentile, but should be understood as "ethnic group", or
of "every ethnicity" because the statement reflects the inclusive nature of the kingdom being
proclaimed, as the rest of the New Testament supports: "a great multitude which no one could number, of (or, from) all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues". Revelation 7:9
Therefore, when Christ prophesied that "ethnos will rise up against ethnos", most translate "nation
against nation". Yet in my lifetime the most barbaric, genocidal acts of war have been committed as
acts of ethnic cleansing, of Ethnic group rising against ethnic group. This is a sound way of comprehending Matthew 24:7, IMO

If you are correct, then the great commission has been fulfilled.

 

[Mr. M]

If you are correct, then the great commission has been fulfilled.

Perhaps soon....
"And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." Luke 21:24

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Has the fullness of the Gentiles (ethnos, nations) come in?
Is the veil being lifted off of Israel, that so many Jews living there have come to believe in Yeshua?
Romans 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

[Hammster]

Perhaps soon....
"And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." Luke 21:24

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Has the fullness of the Gentiles (ethnos, nations) come in?
Is the veil being lifted off of Israel, that so many Jews living there have come to believe in Yeshua?
Romans 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

You can’t have it both ways.

 

[Mr. M]

You can’t have it both ways.

I didn't proclaim the great commission fulfilled, you did. I posted two scriptures that provide
indefinite markers for the age and fullness of the gentiles to be complete.
Your posts have suggested that every nation will be Christian.
If I am correct, only representation of every ethic group is required.
The present status of Jerusalem supports the indefinite statement "perhaps soon".
The "fullness of the gentiles" being approached is supported by the growth in ethnic
Jewish acceptance of Messiah Yeshua.

 

[Hammster]

I didn't proclaim the great commission fulfilled, you did. I posted two scriptures that provide
indefinite markers for the age and fullness of the gentiles to be complete.
Your posts have suggested that every nation will be Christian.
If I am correct, only representation of every ethic group is required.
The present status of Jerusalem supports the indefinite statement "perhaps soon".
The "fullness of the gentiles" being approached is supported by the growth in ethnic
Jewish acceptance of Messiah Yeshua.

You posted that ethos means people groups, or every ethnicity. Every ethnicity has been reached. Thus, it’s fulfilled.

 

[Mr. M]

Every ethnicity has been reached. Thus, it’s fulfilled.

Your statement does not prove Paul.
"until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."
Even if every ethnic group has been reached, this does not prove "fullness".
Fullness is determined by "blindness of Israel". Have we witnessed a move
in that direction in our lifetime? I believe so. Perhaps, soon. The statement
by Paul is indefinite, so my position is indefinite when based on Romans 11:25 alone.
The status of Jerusalem provides some clarity. I say it is still on. You can't define the
Great Commission by the one directive in Matthew 28. There is also this truth, "you are my
witnesses", and "they will know you are my disciples by your love for one another."
If we are still here bearing witness to the resurrection of Messiah, the Commission still functions
by that witness. Someone, somewhere, is getting the message. We remain vigilant watchmen.
Watch and pray. Live holy every day.

 

[Hammster]

Your statement does not prove Paul.
"until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."
Even if every ethnic group has been reached, this does not prove "fullness".
Fullness is determined by "blindness of Israel". Have we witnessed a move
in that direction in our lifetime? I believe so. Perhaps, soon. The statement
by Paul is indefinite, so my position is indefinite when based on Romans 11:25 alone.
The status of Jerusalem provides some clarity. I say it is still on. You can't define the
Great Commission by the one directive in Matthew 28. There is also this truth, "you are my
witnesses", and "they will know you are my disciples by your love for one another."
If we are still here bearing witness to the resurrection of Messiah, the Commission still functions
by that witness. Someone, somewhere, is getting the message. We remain vigilant watchmen.
Watch and pray. Live holy every day.

I believe the commission still functions, but unlike you, I’m not trying to play both sides against the middle. If, however, you look to see how Matthew uses ethnos in his gospel, you’ll see that 70% of the time it’s referring to nations. Plus, Matt 28 fits with other scripture about the kingdom growing to fill the whole earth (Matt 13; Daniel 2).

 

[Mr. M]

I’m not trying to play both sides against the middle.

Not trying to play both sides against some imagined middle. The scriptures my statements are based
on are indefinite, but allow a watchman to see movement in that direction. If since 1948, we have seen
stages of liberation of the city Jerusalem, then we are seeing movement to fulfilling Luke 21:24, yet it
is not complete. The blindness of Israel being removed is a work in progress, if you have followed this over the past few decades.

If, however, you look to see how Matthew uses ethnos in his gospel, you’ll see that 70% of the time it’s referring to nations. Plus, Matt 28 fits with other scripture about the kingdom growing to fill the whole earth (Matt 13; Daniel 2).

I am not questioning the kingdom filling the earth, that will happen.
But is that the Great Commission?
Zechariah 14:
16 And it shall come to pass *everyone who is left of all the nations* which came
against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts,
and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem
to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.
*Remnant Theology*?
Does this sound like evangelism to you, or force of Law?
Isaiah 2:3 Many people shall come and say,
Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Gospel of Grace? Or Kingdom Law?

 

[Hammster]

I am not questioning the kingdom filling the earth, that will happen.
But is that the Great Commission?

The great commission is how we get to the kingdom filling the whole earth.