The Great Pants Debate

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_Shannon_

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I can't imagine what you think of the actual apostles who existed hundreds of years before Chrysostom.

I love how the ECFs are such importance to you.

"yea, patristics and early christians that existed during the apostolic era. That's nothing"..

.
Let me ask you two questions ..should we have slaves because Jesus and Paul talk about how slaves should treat their masters and vice versa? And should we say that life doesn't begin until around 20 weeks after conception, because Augustine , et. al said life didn't start until then??

You don't know at all what anyone's importance is to me. You only know that this ONE particular quote is not a convincing argument for me to blame women for men's inability to keep their pants zipped or their tunic over their knees--because of the culture in which it was written.

Everything every Saint has written isn't infallible--some of it is very clouded by times, circumstances, and technological limitations of the time. That doesn't make them any less a Saint, and it doesn't diminish the importance of their spiritual writings. St. Robert Bellarmine wrote that the universe was geocentric..surely I'm not required to take that lock, stock, and barrel.
 
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_Shannon_

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Christian love and charity does not judge. There is no earthly reason why you should treat a woman any differently even if you disagree with her choice of clothing. She could be parading down the street in a bikini and a good Christian would still treat her the exact same way: respectfully. Of course you can disapprove of it. You could even talk to her about it. But that is still no reason to behave disrespectfully, just as a respectful woman would make sure she wasn't showing too much skin by the standards of time.

DIng! DIng! DIng!
 
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CreedIsChrist

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Let me ask you two questions ..should we have slaves because Jesus and Paul talk about how slaves should treat their masters and vice versa? And should we say that life doesn't begin until around 20 weeks after conception, because Augustine , et. al said life didn't start until then??

You don't know at all what anyone's importance is to me. You only know that this ONE particular quote is not a convincing argument for me to blame women for men's inability to keep their pants zipped or their tunic over their knees--because of the culture in which it was written.

Everything every Saint has written isn't infallible--some of it is very clouded by times, circumstances, and technological limitations of the time. That doesn't make them any less a Saint, and it doesn't diminish the importance of their spiritual writings. St. Robert Bellarmine wrote that the universe was geocentric..surely I'm not required to take that lock, stock, and barrel.


First off slavery was different back then as what you would think of slavery today. Back then slaves were paid and were considered as maids in the modern word. Paul's wording isn't related to forced black slavery that came after. Back then there were many different meanings and defintions of what slaves and servants were

St. Augustine wasn't talking about when life begins, he was talking about en-soulment/animation, not life itself. They are not the same thing. Do better research

Lastly St. Bellarmine was talking about the universe, not the galaxy. For all we know the earth could be the center of all the cosmos and there are many allegorical and theological meanings as the earth being the center of it all..
 
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CreedIsChrist

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ROFL....it wouldn't be funny at all, except that you are so earnest. And for some reason I find that kind of endearing.


well I don't really find joking about modesty to be funny. Considering its a very important christian trait that is related to ones merit, respect, honor, and humility. Modesty itself stems from humility and respect for others, and most importantly, your brothers in Christ. Someone who dresses immodest whether it be jeans that hug the bottom, short skirts, cut shirts, etc does not care about their brothers in Christ because they are causing a stumbling block for others. And Jesus was quite explicit about people who cause temptation in others to sin(something about a rope and millstone and being cast into the sea)

Point 1: we live in the 21st century, and thank goodness for that.

Point 2: I find it ironic that you would accuse me of adhominems, but hey, go a head.

Point 3: are you saying breasts have no place in a discussion about modesty?

Point 4: I believe this is now the third time I have pointed out to you there is nothing in the Cathechism, nor in the Bible, about how women are supposed to dress in the 21st century. Care to enlighten me?

the way you and shannon talk about your breasts, joking about how big they are and calling them headlights is immodest in itself. A humble modest woman would not talk about her boobs to other people in such an open, flippant fashion. Secondly I have seen women walk into church with cut shirts and short skirts, and men with tshirts that have skulls all over them and long hair. Just because they are tolerated doesn't make it ok.

As far as how women are to dress. I had stated earlier. Loose clothing that does not tightly hug the curves, hips, bottom, and doesn't show the thighs and legs of the woman, nor tops that expose cleavage or hug the breasts, long hair(never short like a man), and headcovering/veil for mass or general dress.

Modest Women's Clothing Modest Clothing for Women and Girls Embroidered Aprons Lace Umbrellas is a good place to start
 
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_Shannon_

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Okay--where did I talk about how big my breasts are?

Dude..I breastfeed all of my kids for 2+ years...somehow I think talking about my breasts is somewhat unavoidable. Or other people's breasts--you know if we're talking about breastfeeding.

It's only men (Western men, at that) who have made breasts sexual.

And basically--you want women to be all burqua-d up. That's what you want. You don't believe that there is middle ground where women dress respectfully, NOT frumpy or hiding the fact they are women (I honestly don't know how you deal with art showing the Blessed Mother's exposed breast)....AND men actually man up and control themselves. You are blaming women for your weakness and inability to fight temptation. And that's just wrong. Guess where violence and treating women as objects or property is most prevalent. Take a guess....I'll give you a hint--it's where extreme modesty is the cultural standard. Not that you care about violence against women--just so long as you're not tempted into lustful thoughts and masturbation, and adultery by them--since all of those things are really the woman's fault.

Do you realize that both Antigone and I both actually dress "modestly"?? Are you missing that entirely?
 
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Wirraway

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And dude--those clothes are truly hideous. Talk about drawing undo attention to yourself. We don't live in Little House On The Prairie. You can be modest without drawing attention to how completely ugly and unstylish your clothing is.

that's epic... I was just thinking, "homespun" and "little house on the prairie".

he'd go nuts in southern Nevada, where women often attend Mass in shorts and sandals because of the heat.
 
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_Shannon_

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Victrixa

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Okay--where did I talk about how big my breasts are?

Dude..I breastfeed all of my kids for 2+ years...somehow I think talking about my breasts is somewhat unavoidable. Or other people's breasts--you know if we're talking about breastfeeding.

It's only men (Western men, at that) who have made breasts sexual.

And basically--you want women to be all burqua-d up. That's what you want. You don't believe that there is middle ground where women dress respectfully, NOT frumpy or hiding the fact they are women (I honestly don't know how you deal with art showing the Blessed Mother's exposed breast)....AND men actually man up and control themselves. You are blaming women for your weakness and inability to fight temptation. And that's just wrong. Guess where violence and treating women as objects or property is most prevalent. Take a guess....I'll give you a hint--it's where extreme modesty is the cultural standard. Not that you care about violence against women--just so long as you're not tempted into lustful thoughts and masturbation, and adultery by them--since all of those things are really the woman's fault.

Do you realize that both Antigone and I both actually dress "modestly"?? Are you missing that entirely?

EXACTLY!!!!! I tell you a kid would understand that, he doesn't.... :doh:
 
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Victrixa

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And dude--those clothes are truly hideous. Talk about drawing undo attention to yourself. We don't live in Little House On The Prairie. You can be modest without drawing attention to how completely ugly and unstylish your clothing is. Clothing which screams "Look at me and my modesty!!!" isn't modest at all.

Couldn't agree more... :idea:
 
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Gwendolyn

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You know that standards of modesty vary depending on time and culture, right?

You know that there are African tribes where it is considered modest to keep the ankles covered, but the breasts exposed, right?

C.S. Lewis has this to say concerning modesty:

The Christian rule of chastity must not be confused with the social rule of 'modesty'
(in one sense of that word); i. e. propriety, or decency. The social rule of propriety lays down how much of the human body should be displayed and what subjects can be referred to, and in what words, according to the customs of a given social circle. Thus, while the rule of chastity is the same for all Christians at all times, the rule of propriety changes. A girl in the Pacific islands wearing hardly any clothes and a Victorian lady completely covered in clothes might both be equally 'modest', proper, or decent, according to the standards of their own societies: and both, for all we could tell by their dress, might be equally chaste (or equally unchaste).
- Mere Christianity

It is ridiculous to claim that a Western woman, say, dressed in a knee-length skirt and a blouse, is immodest just because her clothes are not five sizes too big. It is ridiculous to claim that just because Western fashion has evolved, that means all women dressing according to current trends are somehow unchaste or immodest.

Maybe you should spend more time in prayer and self-reflection than spending your time grumbling over how immodest and unchaste modern women are just because they aren't dressed like Victorians.
 
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Antigone

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CiC - I mentioned my boobs once as an example. I do not 'brag' about my chest size. I think if you'd met me face to face you'd notice. I say again: why does modesty not include a discussion on what to do with breasts?

this is a forum bout christian modesty, not about whats in style and what isn't. And ugly is in the eye of the beholder.

Well, so is modesty. But you seem to have missed that.

funkyfrum is ok, but SierraBrooke is definitely too flashy and cutup to be modest, especially with those high heels with the mid cut dresses.

And all that still does not change the fact that this remains your opinion.

I'm still waiting for those scriptural or Cathechism references that tell me how to dress exactly, by the way. Particularly the part that says every dress has to look like Laura Ingalls Wilder on acid.
 
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_Shannon_

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this is a forum bout christian modesty, not about whats in style and what isn't. And ugly is in the eye of the beholder.



funkyfrum is ok, but SierraBrooke is definitely too flashy and cutup to be modest, especially with those high heels with the mid cut dresses.




if you two dress modestly then stop attacking the ideal of modesty or giving the idea that modesty is just an old dead trait.

well isn't that funny, since the US has one of the highest rape rates in the US in the top ten, ranked number 9. Guess where Saudi Arabia is? ON THE BOTTOM, ranked 65, the lowest in the world. Canada and Austrailia, 2 more western countries were women wear "whatever they want" also rank in the top 10, Canada being #5 and Australia being #3(with South America at number 1)

Nice job putting your foot in your mouth though..

Rapes (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.

Sure..because I'm sure all the rapes in countries where women can get stoned to death for being raped are reported. I'm talking about where women are treated like property and are denied basic human rights.( Again which I am sure makes me a radical feminist) And you know in Saudi Arabia, for instance--women cannot own a car or mix with men in public, or Afghanistan where 87 percent of women have been assaulted by a family member ....hopefully you can see how messed up that is.

I think heels are one of the banes of modern existence. As I wrote earlier.

But you have some serious issues if seeing a woman's calf is going to drive you to lust after her. People who dress completely outside of the style of their time are drawing attention to themselves. People who dress that way intentionally, are immodest. ANd ugly might be in the eye of the beholder--but man--those dresses and vests (yikes!) are just ugly. They just are. And I cannot imagine what level of messed upedness there is in a dynamic if a husband would actually prefer to see his wife in those clothes as opposed to some of the ones I posted. Unless of course, he doesn't trust his wife--or wants her to feel guilty simply about being a woman.

No one is attacking modesty--just your ideas about modesty, and the idea that women are causing men to sin. That's abusurd. No one can MAKE you sin.
 
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CreedIsChrist

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Sure..because I'm sure all the rapes in countries where women can get stoned to death for being raped are reported. I'm talking about where women are treated like property and are denied basic human rights.( Again which I am sure makes me a radical feminist)

I think heels are one of the banes of modern existence. As I wrote earlier.

But you have some serious issues if seeing a woman's calf is going to drive you to lust after her. People who dress completely outside of the style of their time are drawing attention to themselves. People who dress that way intentionally, are immodest. ANd ugly might be in the eye of the beholder--but man--those dresses and vests (yikes!) are just ugly. They just are. And I cannot imagine what level of messed upedness there is in a dynamic if a husband would actually prefer to see his wife in those clothes as opposed to some of the ones I posted. Unless of course, he doesn't trust his wife--or wants her to feel guilty simply about being a woman.

No one is attacking modesty--just your ideas about modesty, and the idea that women are causing men to sin. That's abusurd. No one can MAKE you sin.



Saudi Arabia doesn't stone women for being raped! seriously, everything you spew is like from a Michael Moore documentary..

Secondly I never said women are fully responsible. But women who dress in a lustful fashion are at least 50% responsible, and probably more so if her clothing is worn purposely to oggle others..

And yes, lustful clothing causes temptation in other people, which gives open routes to sin. Modesty guards against this, as well as protecting the woman and her dignity. Knowing that some people are weaker-willed towards temptation than others, which is a product of original sin called concupiscence, why would you knowingly dress in a way that could cause temptation to others??
 
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Antigone

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Saudi Arabia doesn't stone women for being raped!

They do in Iran.

Secondly I never said women are fully responsible. But women who dress in a lustful fashion are at least 50% responsible, and probably more so if her clothing is worn purposely to oggle others..

No. Absolutely not. Please don't make excuses for rape. That is just disgusting.

And yes, lustful clothing causes temptation in other people, which gives open routes to sin. Modesty guards against this, as well as protecting the woman and her dignity. Knowing that some people are weaker-willed towards temptation, which is a product of original sin called concupiscence, why would you knowingly dress in a way that could cause temptation to others??

90% of all women around me wear jeans. Tight jeans, most of the time. Do you really think that that makes it a turn on? Quite the opposite. Everyone blends in. As Shannon pointed out: dress in prairy garb, and you stick out. People see an easy target. Does that mean it's the fault of those women? Of course not. People have to keep their darn hands to themselves, modest or not.

The Victorians, on the contrary, were turned on by just the sight of an ankle. Read that quote that Gwendolyn posted. Social convention matters.
 
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Victrixa

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Creed,

As Shannon mentioned, rapes in Saudi Arabia and all those other Muslim countries are not reported.

Rape (in every form - pedophilia is in it too) is an accepted way of life for men over there, didn't you know? Men can (and they do all the time) use members of their own family and outside of it for their own sexual satisfaction, apparently Allah encourages that! (they rape babies, young girls, women and young beardless boys)

This is the reign of terror where women and girls (and young boys) are worth less than a family dog and are sexual objects! :doh: Few people know these things, though more and more do now, thank God)

We receive lots of disinformation through statistics and in the news...

Just sayin'....

You don't seem to live on the same planet as me.... :scratch:

What nationality are you? (just curious)
 
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CreedIsChrist

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And this is not mentioning spousal rape, which is not even recognised as rape in these countries :(


I cannot believe the lack of knowledge in some posts, which are easily remedied by doing a simply google search. I have friends from SA, they live there part of the season and come back here on work permit from Aramco. Rapists are punished to the ultimate degree there. Raping your wife is a punishable offense, both from the police and the family.


Creed,

As Shannon mentioned, rapes in Saudi Arabia and all those other Muslim countries are not reported.

Rape (in every form - pedophilia is in it too) is an accepted way of life for men over there, didn't you know? Men can (and they do all the time) use members of their own family and outside of it for their own sexual satisfaction, apparently Allah encourages that! (they rape babies, young girls, women and young beardless boys)

This is the reign of terror where women and girls (and young boys) are worth less than a family dog and are sexual objects!
doh.gif
Few people know these things, though more and more do now, thank God)

We receive lots of disinformation through statistics and in the news...

Just sayin'....

You don't seem to live on the same planet as me....
scratch.gif


What nationality are you? (just curious)
ROFL. Yea Saudi Arabia is just a rape playground according to you and yet it has the lowest rape statistics in the world out of all countries. I mean when you goto SA you can actually see people raping each other on the street right away! in the supermarkets, the movies, everywhere *rolls eyes* They go unreported you say? hogwash. Rape is a serious offense in SA and is taken very sternly. They are a wealthy country from their oil and their police department is not some tribal taliban outfit from Afghanistan as you would like to think. You have no proof or evidence. Just stuff you have been fed by the media. Your talking about rape being common in SA while your country is in the 5th place of countries with the highest rape. My own country Armenia(a true christian country) is also the lowest(that is where most my heritage is from).
 
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EmbattledBunny

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You know what kind of turns me on? Attractive women who are in shape, regardless of clothing. A bikini, sweatpants, a beekeeper's suit, whatever. The best way to keep me from lusting over you is for you to be ugly or unfit.

You know what else kinda turns me on? Head coverings at Mass (again, only on pretty people).

Headcoverings aren't wrong though, I am wrong to think that way...and every time I'm tempted to look upon a woman with lust, it's on opportunity for me to get better. Keep the opportunities coming. Without them, I suspect I'd stop striving for perfection.
 
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