The Great Pants Debate

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JoabAnias

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I completely support the stoning of women who show their elbows. Do you women not understand how mad thine elbows drive me? Cover up! Cover up for my sake!

:p;)!

They ignore men here. :p I advocated the niqab for all and got not one witty retort. Me things there is no sense of humor in fashion.
 
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Victrixa

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I'm not a hermit. I do actually leave my house. I just genuinely don't really care what other random people are wearing or doing. I can be responsible for me (and of course, my children). Focusing on the flaws and shortcomings of others, would just be a way for me to not have to work as hard on myself.

And maybe that's not entirely true..I do notice things about dress--I notice when people are dressed inappropriately for their surroundings--being formal in an informal setting makes you stand out like a sore thumb, likewise being informal in a formal setting. (Both of which are just as immodest as wearing too little clothing).

I also notice shoes--it just kills me that women still subject their bodies to wearing heels--there are few fashions which do as much harm to women's bodies as heels--they throw your pelvis way out of alignment, and remove your body from bearing weight on the hips, pelvis and legs--leading to prolapses, urinary incontinence, arthritis, and osteoporosis, pronation of the knees and feet just to name a few things. I also notice panty hose--which again are just heinously bad for women's health--they restrict circulation and well, um, airflow to your girl parts. Those two clothing items just make me sad and lament that we are still so hung up on our ideas of proper women's dress and beauty to the point where it actually harms women. Guess that probably makes me a radical feminist.

I hate that quote from Ms. Hammond you posted...it's just inflammatory. Has she made some sort of study of prostitute fashions of the past? Or is it just simply more of the "Oh the 1950's were just so much better than now...." which is just a crock. It sounds so appealing, to long for the days of yore---but there were obviously some very fundamental problems and issues...or the 1960's (those times of Babylon) would never have happened. There are problems in every time.

Women are still not treated with dignity and respect based on their personhood, one of the biggest reason being that we are still entrenched in being objectified by men, and well heck--even by one another. In the parameters of this discussion--a man saying what women "ought" to wear--is blatant objectification. It's just a matter of wanting women to conform to a set of male-produced standards. Men want women to dress a certain way, AND want to blame women for their own inability to achieve self-mastery.

I honestly don't understand how women can bear the onus for this. As with so very much--what we're called to is mutual respect. As long as we have people telling us that they'll only respect us if we conform to their standards of dress and beauty--we will NEVER achieve mutual respect. And quite frankly, it keeps us focused on the realm of externals, rather than the much more difficult internal.

Shannon you write so well!!! What a great post!!! You said it all... :thumbsup:
 
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JoabAnias

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I spent most of my life being told what I can or can't wear. This started with me being a redhead. Ya can't wear red, ya can't wear certain colors of pink , ya can't wear this and ya can't wear that. We had to dress in a dress for dinner each night, no pants at the dinner table, and no, we were not rich, in fact we were pretty poor.
If we went to church it was hat and gloves and then all accessories had to match.

Well, slowly things relaxed...to a point. Red was and still is my favorite color, but still I couldn't wear it.

Then almost 8 years ago, I developed lung cancer. It was bad. I lost part of a lung and yet, God spared my life and as shocking as it was to my doctor, I am totally cured.

Guess what, now, I do not sweat the small things. I wear red whenever I feel like it, pink too. I wear pants to church if it suits me and even knee length shorts GASP!!!!

If the Holy Father tells me I must wear a dress or skirt to Church, I will obey him. Until that day, I am not the least concerned what someone on a website says I should wear.

Not rebelious, just set free.

Why can't red heads wear red? Too firery? Oh no, NOT shorts. :p
 
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Victrixa

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They ignore men here. :p I advocated the niqab for all and got not one witty retort. Me things there is no sense of humor in fashion.

There are some Christian men who scare me... I think they'd want every woman dressed in a niqab cuz they scandalize over trivial things...

I'm for being logical and down-to-earth on everything... :wave:
 
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Antigone

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I spent most of my life being told what I can or can't wear. This started with me being a redhead. Ya can't wear red, ya can't wear certain colors of pink , ya can't wear this and ya can't wear that. We had to dress in a dress for dinner each night, no pants at the dinner table, and no, we were not rich, in fact we were pretty poor.
If we went to church it was hat and gloves and then all accessories had to match.

Well, slowly things relaxed...to a point. Red was and still is my favorite color, but still I couldn't wear it.

Then almost 8 years ago, I developed lung cancer. It was bad. I lost part of a lung and yet, God spared my life and as shocking as it was to my doctor, I am totally cured.

Guess what, now, I do not sweat the small things. I wear red whenever I feel like it, pink too. I wear pants to church if it suits me and even knee length shorts GASP!!!!

If the Holy Father tells me I must wear a dress or skirt to Church, I will obey him. Until that day, I am not the least concerned what someone on a website says I should wear.

Not rebelious, just set free.

Word. I believe this smiley is called for :clap:. Also :thumbsup:.
 
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_Shannon_

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:) Not going to come back at all at ya. :) Peace Shannon. I personally think we are actually on the same page with variations.

Dressing modest and teaching the young girls and teens around me this is just a passion of mine. I know from my past how showing body parts can get a girl sexually physically harmed (along with other reasons) and that is probably why I am so passionate about this subject.
Yeah, when I was raped--I was wearing a long sleeve button up blouse and long skirt. (Interestingly though it was more than 20 years ago---I remember exactly what I was wearing, even my underwear and socks). Do you see how what I was wearing, didn't make it my fault? In fact having a skirt on, made it easier for the guys to rape me. (And my opinions about dress aren't reactionary--like I wrote--at this point I wear mostly dresses and skirts)

What women wear, doesn't make rape or sexual assault or sexual violence their fault. Ever. Not ever. And I think it is deeply harmful to ever imply such.

It's about having self respect and dignity, of learning that a woman or young woman, or girl has value and worth simply because she is, not because of what she does or what she does or does not do for men. Our clothing ought to be an expression of those things, our confidence and knowledge of our worth--and that expression is going to vary widely. In my opinion--people who advocate for gaining respectful treatment for women if they just dress "right" are just adding fuel to the fire. Women--people for that matter, ought to be respected. Period.

If one feels a personal conviction to dress a certain way--that's awesome. But be wary of pushing a personal conviction of something so exterior on others. The crux of the matter is undoing all the baggage of growing up in a culture which still tries to dictate to females what they can and cannot do, and objectifies them. Having strict standards for what women can and cannot wear--is STILL just more objectification. And in my opinion, can be even more insidious because it's cloaked to look like a virtue.
 
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JoabAnias

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There are some Christian men who scare me... I think they'd want every woman dressed in a niqab cuz they scandalize over trivial things...

I'm for being logical and down-to-earth on everything... :wave:

That scariness is not Christian behavior sister, thats probably the narcisism a control freak. ;)

Dignity of dress is never abusive or oppresive either.

For Church its simple: Images for vatican dress code (no fair to men by the way)

The rest of the time all we have to do is be mindful of not flaunting "it" whatever "it" is. LOL.

I gotta go eat my quiche and V8.
 
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Antigone

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RE- Vatican dress code: they enforce that pretty strictly in nearly all churches in Italy. When I was in Rome and Venice I must have seen at least half the visitors turned away because their clothes weren't up to par. It's really not all that hard to live up to: cover your knees and shoulders and anything in between and you're set to go (alright, guys in shorts are a no-go too). And you can always bring a scarf or a cardigan to trow on if you're not dressed appropriately. But Italy is so far the only country where I've seen a dress code enforced like that.
 
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JoabAnias

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RE- Vatican dress code: they enforce that pretty strictly in nearly all churches in Italy. When I was in Rome and Venice I must have seen at least half the visitors turned away because their clothes weren't up to par. It's really not all that hard to live up to: cover your knees and shoulders and anything in between and you're set to go (alright, guys in shorts are a no-go too). And you can always bring a scarf or a cardigan to trow on if you're not dressed appropriately. But Italy is so far the only country where I've seen a dress code enforced like that.

I think its so sexist that I can't wear shorts. :p

Obviously some woman or homosexual made that rule. ^_^

Do they have any idea how much I sweat?
 
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Antigone

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I think its so sexist that I can't wear shorts. :p

Obviously some woman or homosexual made that rule. ^_^

Do they have any idea how much I sweat?

That's why they have those things with removable pant legs. Zip on, zip off. Problem solved.
 
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Victrixa

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JoabAnias said:
That scariness is not Christian behavior sister, thats probably the narcisism a control freak.

Well when I say that some people scare me, it's a way of saying things... ;) But control freaks are creepy, no? And dangerous in my opinion... just trying to say that there's something off in this behaviour myself.

I'm French-speaking and looking for ways to express what I wish to express at times... :o
 
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JoabAnias

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That's why they have those things with removable pant legs. Zip on, zip off. Problem solved.

Wouldn't that require being able to bend over long enough? ^_^

I don't want to zip my leg hair! :eek:
 
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JoabAnias

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Well when I say that some people scare me, it's a way of saying things... ;) But control freaks are creepy, no? And dangerous in my opinion... just trying to say that there's something off in this behaviour myself.

I'm French-speaking and looking for ways to express what I wish to express at times... :o

I don't really think the average narcissist is too dangerous, because they are cowards about it when stood up to. ;P

Ah French eh? Try speaking backward and it should come out in English. ^_^
 
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Lady Bug

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Maybe men don't have curves around their hips and legs but let me tell you, their 'squareness' (men are made in a straigth line) in shape sure can turn women on! I have to look away sometimes myself... :o Some don't realize how their manliness (testosterone) arouses women with the way they wear their clothing!!!! You ain't a woman eh?
maybe I have asexual tendencies because men as a physical specimen don't really do that kind of effect on me:eek: that is notwithstanding my normal sexual desires.
 
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Antigone

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Wouldn't that require being able to bend over long enough? ^_^

I don't want to zip my leg hair! :eek:

I could be very sexist about this and say that that is what wives and small children are for, but that would really go against my principles.
 
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CreedIsChrist

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Yeah I'm sure St. Gianna was in sack cloth...or the Saints who were queens and princesses..I'm sure they were frump city, too.

yea long modest clothing has nothing to do with St. Gianna *rolls eyes*

Gianna%20Molla.gif


SaintGianna.gif


yea, she really looks the like ideal your trying to represent, :doh:

and many saints in high positions gave up their titles in a vow of poverty.
 
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Lady Bug

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even though there are so many women out there who go out exercising and all that with REALLY inappropriate apparel, a rapist is a rapist. Rape isn't just about being in overdrive, it's about the desire for complete power over someone and to inflict terror on someone through that power. An inherent rapist is simply looking for any victim; it is highly unlikely that they don't give a flying fig what you're wearing; they're just looking for someone to rape. An evil rapist isn't going to have any more mercy on some lady walking on the street at night who happens to be dressing modestly if his intent all along is to rape someone.
 
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_Shannon_

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yea long modest clothing has nothing to do with St. Gianna *rolls eyes*

Gianna%20Molla.gif


SaintGianna.gif


yea, she really looks the like ideal your trying to represent, :doh:

and many saints in high positions gave up their titles in a vow of poverty.
Don't go all changing what you said (or what I said, for that matter).

You said that Saints all wore raggy modest clothing and didn't care about their clothing. I'm sorry, but St. Gianna sure doesn't look like she's in raggy clothing to me. She does, in fact, appear to be dressed in clothes which show she has a waist and breasts. Clothes which are stylish and fashionable. And I have no idea if she cared about her physical, outward appearance--but she is FAR from appearing as though she doesn't care (could it be that as a Saint she cared moderately and in a properly ordered way!?)

Sure some Queen and princess Saints denounced their titles and positions...and then again some did not. Is it possible, just possible there were some well dressed, stylish, female Saints in the history of the Church???

You are so blinded by your twisted ideals, that you can't fathom why she is precisely the ideal I am trying to represent.
 
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