The Great Controversy

Gary O'

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I've read it a few times
And thought, 'yeah, those will truly be perilous times'

Now?
Here they are
Absolute lawlessness

I'm not all that fond of Trump
But he looks like a god compared to the leaders of the other side

I consider the scenario of Trump taking back the presidency
And see how easy it would be to usher in some laws contrary to Christian beliefs
in lieu of the absolute lawlessness of today's hierarchy
 
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BobRyan

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I've read it a few times
And thought, 'yeah, those will truly be perilous times'

Now?
Here they are
Absolute lawlessness

I'm not all that fond of Trump
But he looks like a god compared to the leaders of the other side

I consider the scenario of Trump taking back the presidency
And see how easy it would be to usher in some laws contrary to Christian beliefs
in lieu of the absolute lawlessness of today's hierarchy

well we know how it all ends. And godless atheism, in an unanchored moral wasteland of one abomination after the other is not it. The end is not that all the world turns into socialist/communist/China 3.0
 
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reddogs

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well we know how it all ends. And godless atheism, in an unanchored moral wasteland of one abomination after the other is not it. The end is not that all the world turns into socialist/communist/China 3.0
Well, they have turned the next generation in the free world against God much like in the socialist/communist rule, so not much difference now..
 
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GDL

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@Gary O' @BobRyan @reddogs It astounds me how Christians (?) have been led to believe there is any other standard than God's Law and that it is no longer in effect. Of course, all of the travails come. It does not surprise that we see the indications we see now and that others have seen them developing for many, many years. What does surprise, but for an understanding of grace & mercy, is that we get the reprieves we get.

Interesting read.
 
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BobRyan

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@Gary O' @BobRyan @reddogs It astounds me how Christians (?) have been led to believe there is any other standard than God's Law and that it is no longer in effect. Of course, all of the travails come. It does not surprise that we see the indications we see now and that others have seen them developing for many, many years. What does surprise, but for an understanding of grace & mercy, is that we get the reprieves we get.

Interesting read.
When you look at fast-growing segments in society challenging the mostly - declining growth rates of Christian groups - you see that atheists are growing and that LGBT groups are growing.

When you look at laws passed and "norms" established in our society - two of them dictate that Christians will die out while those two groups will grow.

1. Demand that everyone believe in evolutionism's doctrine on origins
2. Demand that everyone adopt LGBTQ redefinition of gender and redefinition of marriage.

Those two emerging societal "norms" drive Christian youth and young adults to the obvious conclusion that Christianity must be dead.
 
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GDL

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When you look at fast-growing segments in society challenging the mostly - declining growth rates of Christian groups - you see that atheists are growing and that LGBT groups are growing.

When you look at laws passed and "norms" established in our society - two of them dictate that Christians will die out while those two groups will grow.

1. Demand that everyone believe in evolutionism's doctrine on origins
2. Demand that everyone adopt LGBTQ redefinition of gender and redefinition of marriage.

Those two emerging societal "norms" drive Christian youth and young adults to the obvious conclusion that Christianity must be dead.
I've not watched such statistical trends but what you say does not surprise me and it's hard not see the spread of #2 above. I argued to little avail some time ago that the marriage issue was not the goal, and the real goal was to be rid of God and His creation in kinds. Gender was thus the real attack in waiting & even that was not the end. I was a bit surprised at how fast gender surfaced.

What I've been noticing more naturally for decades is the condition of what most call Christianity, which IMO is not all Christian. Denominationalism seems to be ever expanding. Publicly exposed sinning among leadership seems a regular occurrence. Some denominations are fully given over to supporting evil and ordaining it. Biblical illiteracy is way more the norm than maturity. Congregational judiciaries and discipline seem more and more inept to non-existent. God's Law is purportedly terminated. The part of the Great Commission about teaching what Christ commands is left out and ignored. Paul's service of bringing about "obedience of faith" among the nations does not make sense to those many who call that "works salvation". Entertainment is more and more the majority of the "worship". A review of the religious identification of Congressmen showed most to be Catholic awhile back yet legislation kept descending more into evil. I'll stop here but just for brevity's sake, but I did see your threads on the abortion issue and mention it hereby and include it in the legislation matters just mentioned.

One of the teachings I heard several times from a few different sources essentially said "as goes the Church, so goes the nation." I think I saw something similar as I skimmed through the writing referenced in this thread.

There's a reason these trends are what they are. What exactly is that reason?
 
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BobRyan

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One of the teachings I heard several times from a few different sources essentially said "as goes the Church, so goes the nation." I think I saw something similar as I skimmed through the writing referenced in this thread.

There's a reason these trends are what they are. What exactly is that reason?
Sorry - I did not notice that question mark at the end.

Well... better late than never.

"Love of many will grow cold" Matt 24:12 - is a "prediction" about the future - made by Christ while living under the brutal Roman empire.

The society of sinful man worsens over time and then was destroyed by a flood in Genesis 7
Then this one worsens until it too will be destroyed -- it will be destroyed by fire according to 2 Peter 3.

It is an ever worsening condition that gets temporary "reset" in the form of Christian revival and expansion of the gospel. But at some point saturation is reached - the gospel will have gone to all the world and the general trend of descent into self-destruction overtakes the whole of it.

Rev 14 - the final warning is to be given to mankind
Rev 15:8 - probation for mankind ends - Christ leaves His work in the heavenly sanctuary
Rev 16 - the seven last plagues of the "Wrath of God" fall upon mankind
Rev 19 - the appearing of Christ, rapture of the saints, destruction of all the lost 2Thess 1:5-11

And the result? Jer 4:23-26 "no human" left on Earth, only the ruined cities of Jer 4:25-26.

Once the 1000 years are over - the Holy City comes down - all the saints return, the wicked are raised to life and are judged.... then the Rev 20 Lake of fire event.

Then the New Earth of Rev 21.
 
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GDL

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Sorry - I did not notice that question mark at the end.

Well... better late than never.

"Love of many will grow cold" Matt 24:12 - is a "prediction" about the future - made by Christ while living under the brutal Roman empire.

The society of sinful man worsens over time and then was destroyed by a flood in Genesis 7
Then this one worsens until it too will be destroyed -- it will be destroyed by fire according to 2 Peter 3.

It is an ever worsening condition that gets temporary "reset" in the form of Christian revival and expansion of the gospel. But at some point saturation is reached - the gospel will have gone to all the world and the general trend of descent into self-destruction overtakes the whole of it.

Rev 14 - the final warning is to be given to mankind
Rev 15:8 - probation for mankind ends - Christ leaves His work in the heavenly sanctuary
Rev 16 - the seven last plagues of the "Wrath of God" fall upon mankind
Rev 19 - the appearing of Christ, rapture of the saints, destruction of all the lost 2Thess 1:5-11

And the result? Jer 4:23-26 "no human" left on Earth, only the ruined cities of Jer 4:25-26.

Once the 1000 years are over - the Holy City comes down - all the saints return, the wicked are raised to life and are judged.... then the Rev 20 Lake of fire event.

Then the New Earth of Rev 21.
Thanks for the better late than never response. Appreciated.

It's interesting that you mentioned 2 Peter 3. I've often referred back to 3:12 (in context) and looked at the "hastening" language connected to our living in holiness and godliness. It seems that not only the bad behavior of the world is dealt with, but the godly behavior may have something to do with expediting the judgment. IOW, what happens if a mass of mature Christians were to come about and be prepared for the end? It's hard to see that being in place in this time, but He knows who are His wherever they are.
 
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BobRyan

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Thanks for the better late than never response. Appreciated.

It's interesting that you mentioned 2 Peter 3. I've often referred back to 3:12 (in context) and looked at the "hastening" language connected to our living in holiness and godliness. It seems that not only the bad behavior of the world is dealt with, but the godly behavior may have something to do with expediting the judgment. IOW, what happens if a mass of mature Christians were to come about and be prepared for the end? It's hard to see that being in place in this time, but He knows who are His wherever they are.

Let's say the entire world gets converted and that when Jesus comes instead of only 8 people saved and the whole planet lost - as in the days of Noah - what is really the case is that the planet enjoyed Christ's return and everyone is saved. Given that future as "reality" is it not strange that all of the end time scenarios given in Rev 13, Mark 13, Luke 22, Matt 24 (as it was in the days of Noah), 2 Thess 1:5-9, 1 Thess 5, Matt 7, Rev 19 (with all governments with their armies of earth gathered against Christ and the armies of heaven) ... have exactly the opposite as the prediction for what happens in the end??

Isn't this ("what if the word we have been given is wrong? what if it is not as dire as God says") sort of response exactly what they tried out in Noah's day - and it did not work out all that well for them then. Shall we really double down on a failed solution?
 
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Gary K

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I've read it a few times
And thought, 'yeah, those will truly be perilous times'

Now?
Here they are
Absolute lawlessness

I'm not all that fond of Trump
But he looks like a god compared to the leaders of the other side

I consider the scenario of Trump taking back the presidency
And see how easy it would be to usher in some laws contrary to Christian beliefs
in lieu of the absolute lawlessness of today's hierarchy
Listen to some Lewis Walton sermons on Americanchristianityministries.org. I love his sermons.
 
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Gary O'

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Reading TGC for morning devotion

Noticed Mrs White references an author many times in the chapters about Martin Luther
I'd love to find this author
Using the audio, so only know how the last name sounds ;
'Dobinyay'
At least that's how I hear it
I don't readily see the reference in the printed version

Any help would be appreciated
 
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