The Great Apostasy

[Halbhh]

You are not wrong. I have three children. Schooled in a private Christian school. Born again and baptized by water as a profession of faith.

The oldest comes to church when he is home visiting.
The middle child attends with us as a family when we are together for special holidays.
The youngest attends very rarely.

They are all responsible young adults. Not into drugs or any crime. They are well adjusted and are a benefit to society.

However, they are not attending.

I talked with one of their Christian teachers. He, as you and I, has noticed this trend in the "millennials" and young adults (whatever this generation is called).

He believes that the people of this age group will need a different kind of church setting. They are on their phones and other electronics and connected to one another differently than we were. They are not going to sit and listen do someone for 1/2 an hour... even if the person is a great speaker.

I tend to believe him. We have to find a way to present them with an attractive venue.

The other thing that is on my mind.. is that, even though my kids had 8 years of school where God was the center.. they still had 4 or 5 years of high school and then post secondary... where God is forbidden.

Academia takes over.. everything is by chance and 4.5 billion years old. Mention prayer, the bible, Christ, salvation, creation, supernatural.. and you are stopped in your tracks and backed up or backed out.

How do you deal with young minds in a world where there is an explanation for everything but nothing relies on scripture and scripture is not even an option?

Then you want them to come to church and hear the words of a man, contradicting everything that all of the other elders and teachers are telling them.

I don't think "God is forbidden" on campuses at all, but it is true for instance you cannot expect to go to a public place normally where there is debate and say something as challenging as the gospel without getting reaction both for and against. But I feel it's very good for Christians to share their testimonies and the gospel one on one. It's not needed for most to become public speakers in order to share the gospel. Make a friend, and then testify.

It's a useful insight though that young people are used to interacting via smartphones, as much or more than in person. That's a good insight in this context! Also, we need to be cautious we don't preach some esoteric side doctrine like a one particular version of creationism as if that was the gospel! It's crucial not to make that deep and profound deadly error. The gospel is about Christ Jesus, and He is the message we need to say to others.

Neither Young Earth Creationism nor Old Earth Creationism (nor any other version) will save even one single soul.

Not even one.

Only Christ Jesus alone is the Way and the Truth and the Life. Nothing else is.

If we get into an argument about how old the Earth is, we aren't helping even one person among those that don't yet know of Christ Jesus, the only hope for salvation.

 

[Samaritan Woman]

I've noticed that younger generations have far less engagement with the churches I've attended recently. I look around and see the pews packed with older folks, but youth seem to be a rare sight. Is this a sign of the times? In a few more decades, churches are foreseeably set to lose a sizable percentage of attendees if younger generations don't engage and pick up where our parents and grandparents left off.

Or am I wrong? Discuss if you please

While I do agree with you to an extent, when one observes many mega churches (I won't name them but I would love to!!) that do attract the younger generations, their teachings align perfectly with what Paul was warning in his letter; so did Peter in his second epistle as well. Both apostles were warning of people being attracted to false teachers - just read 2 Thesselonians 2:8-10. This goes for people in their 30s and 40s as well (my generation). Unfortunately the churches that actually do get their seats filled are often spewing garbage which sometimes is laced with demonic manifestations masking as the Holy Spirit; that is why the Antichrist will be able to deceive the masses as they will already conditioned to believe that supernatural signs and wonders are always good.

I have another theory as well - some people may be leaving because most of the teaching nowadays is awful; it's shallow and lead by people who are not gifted in teaching. This is why I stopped attending - and I have tried A LOT of churches in different geographical locations.

 

[JacksBratt]

I don't think "God is forbidden" on campuses at all, but it is true for instance you cannot expect to go to a public place normally where there is debate and say something as challenging as the gospel without getting reaction both for and against.

It may not be forbidden as I indicated. However, the bible, prayer and the ten commandments, have been removed.

Using any biblical concepts as answers to questions or as arguments would not be accepted well.

But I feel it's very good for Christians to share their testimonies and the gospel one on one. It's not needed for most to become public speakers in order to share the gospel. Make a friend, and then testify.

It's a useful insight though that young people are used to interacting via smartphones, as much or more than in person. That's a good insight in this context! Also, we need to be cautious we don't preach some esoteric side doctrine like a one particular version of creationism as if that was the gospel! It's crucial not to make that deep and profound deadly error. The gospel is about Christ Jesus, and He is the message we need to say to others.

Neither Young Earth Creationism nor Old Earth Creationism (nor any other version) will save even one single soul.

Not even one.

Only Christ Jesus alone is the Way and the Truth and the Life. Nothing else is.

If we get into an argument about how old the Earth is, we aren't helping even one person among those that don't yet know of Christ Jesus, the only hope for salvation.

I agree that the gospel is the fundamental concept that needs to be paramount to any action in trying to bring people to Christ.

 

[Blade]

hmm "falling away first" is that really what it means? Asostasy...there are in fact 3 ways it can be taken.. or meant. Some say 4. To say IT ONLY MEANS... would be false. NOT saying it does not.. but its one of those things where.. we just cant.. it can also mean departure.. which can be taking 2 ways.. people are GONE or departure.

See for me..to just read how ONE would interpret it.. would be bad.. I have to read what other have said.. and some are really great men of God..yet do not all agree. So to pick ONE for me would be wrong.

So.. if I read that book verse before chapters before and after.. Hmm .. lol I still can take to two ways.

 

[friend of]

I have another theory as well - some people may be leaving because most of the teaching nowadays is awful; it's shallow and lead by people who are not gifted in teaching

To be fair, being a great inspirational preacher isn't easy. I would also say it isn't entirely up to our self effort either, but the Holy Spirit chooses whom he wants to lead a congregation and often it is best to let him decide the leaders. But I can also understand a believer desiring to serve God with ministry, despite lacking a particular talent in public speaking. The will is often held by church leaders, but teaching ones congregation new and inspiring things about the bible every single week (and each day I'm between if we're honest) requires much study and dependance on Gods guidance. We should pray for our leaders always

 

[Archivist]

My mother attends a big, beautiful old church in what was once a booming coal/coke city. Coal and coke are both pretty much gone, so the city has fallen on hard times. My mother's church is largely attended by older people. Younger people have moved elsewhere; very few children attend the church. That isn't because of anything the church has done, it is just basic demographics.

My home church is in an economically stable area with lots of government, transportation and technology jobs. While we have many seniors among our members--we are located near a retirement community--the majority of our congregation is made up younger people, many of whom have children. We have a big youth group. Again, it is basic demographics.

Having said that, I can remember when I was young almost every driveway along our street would be empty on a Sunday morning because almost everyone went to church. Today I see cars sitting in front of most of the houses on Sunday mornings. Very sad.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I've noticed that younger generations have far less engagement with the churches I've attended recently. I look around and see the pews packed with older folks, but youth seem to be a rare sight. Is this a sign of the times? In a few more decades, churches are foreseeably set to lose a sizable percentage of attendees if younger generations don't engage and pick up where our parents and grandparents left off.

Are we living in the time of great apostasy spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 ?

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition


Or am I wrong? Discuss if you please

Sadly, the case is very, very bad. The great apostasy started a very long time ago, and remains, to this day...

There have been believers, all along, as the church was 'as if' exiled to Babylon, manmade church, just as there were faithful & true jews in Babylon, so have there been faithful & true Christians in Babylon.

But, now, is the time when the call goes out, to leave Babylon...

We are, indeed, in the worst of it.

There is brightness, in this night, however. There are true believers. And the goal is not to destroy the world, but to save it. God had good purposes planned, for all of this.

 

[Not David]

there are two ways to identify the man of sin and one is for sure going to be when Israel has the temple and the sacrifice is restored. This is as Daniel 9 says the prince who shall come will confirm a covenant with the many for 1 week and in the middle of the week stop the daily sacrifices. This is what happens in 2 thess 2 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[fn] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[fn] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[fn] who now restrains will do so until He[fn] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders

If we isolate the details this man called the son of perdition a name also ascribed to Judas who was also possessed by Satan himself. It says he will sit in the temple and exalt himself above all this is God and sit as God in the temple. This one is also destroyed at the coming of the LORD so for sure this is future and not Nero. Rev 13 speaking of the beast
The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue[fn] for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe,[fn] tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. You see this one is also given power by Satan the dragon identified in Rev 19 and 20 show how this is the one who is destroyed at the coming of the LORD.
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[fn] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[fn] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[fn] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years

The Jewish temple cannot be the temple of God since it would be a temple of people who reject God.

 

[Not David]

You need to study religious history.

The Reformers, one and all, applied the prophecies of the “Man of sin” and the “Antichrist” to the Papacy. John Knox, for instance, wrote, “The Pope is the head of the Church of Antichrist. As for your Roman Church as it is now corrupted. I no more doubt but that it is the synagogue of Satan, and the head thereof called the Pope, the man of sin.”

http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/eBooks/THE_ORIGIN_OF_FUTURISM.pdf

"Religious studies", mentions Protestantism which happened 500 years ago.

 

[NeedyFollower]

I've noticed that younger generations have far less engagement with the churches I've attended recently. I look around and see the pews packed with older folks, but youth seem to be a rare sight. Is this a sign of the times? In a few more decades, churches are foreseeably set to lose a sizable percentage of attendees if younger generations don't engage and pick up where our parents and grandparents left off.

Are we living in the time of great apostasy spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 ?

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition


Or am I wrong? Discuss if you please

Yes ..I believe we are in a great apostasy. The man of sin is humanism ( thus the " get behind me satan for thou savor not the things that be of God but the things that be of man . ) The man of perdition is oddly enough about " human rights " ...man first so that man sits in the temple of God showing himself that he is God . I do not think it is actual individual but a pervasive spirit .
I do not wonder that church attendance has dropped off . Church is something we do instead of the living body of Jesus Christ as it was first understood to be ..maybe the youth are tired of the charade or maybe to the praise of God ...they want truth . A infant Christian should know that God does not care for inanimate objects like brick and stone ..stained glass ...things which have no life ...Christ did not give His life for these things and yet we treasure them ...why ? Tradition ..The Truth was crucified by tradition once before ....and it was threat to the livelihood of those in the business of religion .

I don't think "God is forbidden" on campuses at all, but it is true for instance you cannot expect to go to a public place normally where there is debate and say something as challenging as the gospel without getting reaction both for and against. But I feel it's very good for Christians to share their testimonies and the gospel one on one. It's not needed for most to become public speakers in order to share the gospel. Make a friend, and then testify.

It's a useful insight though that young people are used to interacting via smartphones, as much or more than in person. That's a good insight in this context! Also, we need to be cautious we don't preach some esoteric side doctrine like a one particular version of creationism as if that was the gospel! It's crucial not to make that deep and profound deadly error. The gospel is about Christ Jesus, and He is the message we need to say to others.

Neither Young Earth Creationism nor Old Earth Creationism (nor any other version) will save even one single soul.

Not even one.

Only Christ Jesus alone is the Way and the Truth and the Life. Nothing else is.

If we get into an argument about how old the Earth is, we aren't helping even one person among those that don't yet know of Christ Jesus, the only hope for salvation.

Yes ...Jesus Christ and Him crucified .

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

The Jewish temple cannot be the temple of God since it would be a temple of people who reject God.[/QUO

 

[Halbhh]

Yes ..I believe we are in a great apostasy. The man of sin is humanism ( thus the " get behind me satan for thou savor not the things that be of God but the things that be of man . ) The man of perdition is oddly enough about " human rights " ...man first so that man sits in the temple of God showing himself that he is God . I do not think it is actual individual but a pervasive spirit .
I do not wonder that church attendance has dropped off . Church is something we do instead of the living body of Jesus Christ as it was first understood to be ..maybe the youth are tired of the charade or maybe to the praise of God ...they want truth . A infant Christian should know that God does not care for inanimate objects like brick and stone ..stained glass ...things which have no life ...Christ did not give His life for these things and yet we treasure them ...why ? Tradition ..The Truth was crucified by tradition once before ....and it was threat to the livelihood of those in the business of religion .

Yes ...Jesus Christ and Him crucified .

This is very interesting to wonder if 'human rights' will be a trick when the man of sin comes, the possibility that he might use a deception like a pretense towards human rights, or a lie about human rights. A false version of human rights, meant to pull in deceptively. Shouldn't we expect that as possible from the 'father of lies', in that lying by also telling something true or alluding to something true is thought to give more seeming credence to lies.

After all, there is a true form of 'human rights' we are commanded by God.

The true form of 'human rights' are prominent in scripture as direct commands to you and me from Christ, and thus also from God the Father, Himself John 8:28 So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me. --

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me."
John 5 NIV

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

What further additional rights do our brothers and sisters have from us? --

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25 NIV (or better all of verse 31-46)

Respecting the innate (to a soul) rights of our brothers and sisters further:

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift."

25“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."
Matthew 5 NIV

We are to make right what we have done wrong to them, at least with an admission of having been wrong, so that they can more easily forgive us.

Christ summarized the law as it is now written in the hearts of believers,
Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My Laws in their hearts and inscribe them on their minds.", in this way, His Words --

12 "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."

And then the immediate next verses --

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Matthew 7 NIV

We know He is saying we must truly follow Him (as additionally He says in verses 21-27), in order to make it.

So our brothers and sisters in Christ have many rights in relation to us.

And the lost, those without Christ, instinctively know there should be human rights, just as they instinctively know there should be some Better Place somehow, and often imagine various forms of 'heaven on Earth', even with massive disastrous political ideologies like national communism, but also through so many fantasies about love or the technology all-things-possible fantasy future.

So, a deception about what true human rights are could indeed be a powerful trick of the enemy, and the man of sin, when he arrives.