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Featured The great and wonderous sign in heaven

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Sep 11, 2017.

  1. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus Olivet Discourse as recorded in Lk.21:6-25.as well as in the Mt.24 and Mk.13 counter parts, was addressed EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, Jesus made abundantly clear in His first advent, in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6. The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus had ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

    When Jesus does return in His second coming, He will come from His marriage to the Bride/Church in heaven, WITH the Church, as recorded in Rev.19:7-8 and 14. Therefore, as so stated in Lk.21:36, "...look up and watch, for your redemption is near." [paraphrased Jesus will be coming with His Church.


    Quasar92]
     
  2. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that the Church/Israel is figuratively a virgin (2 Corinthians 11:2).

    Also, note that the woman in Revelation 12:1-2 can't be Mary, just as the "man child" in Revelation 12:5 can't be Jesus Christ. For Revelation 12 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from 4 different angles what will happen right before the start and during the literal 3.5 years of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    Regarding Revelation 12:5 saying: "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron": Along with Jesus Christ (Revelation 19:15, Psalms 2:9), the whole obedient Church will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29) on the earth (Revelation 5:10) during the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). Before the Millennium, during the future Tribulation, at its midpoint, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the Church will be caught up in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus) as the "man child" (Revelation 12:5-6), and as the firstfruits of the Church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12).

    Note that the Church is Israel. For the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the Church (James 5:14), people with faith in Jesus Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (that is, Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Jesus to return (James 5:7).

    Also, the book of Hebrews is about the Church (Hebrews 2:12, Hebrews 12:23), the body of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 13:3, cf. 1 Corinthians 12:25-27).

    Also, John 15:5a refers to the body of Jesus Christ, of which all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are a part (1 Corinthians 12:13). The connection between them being part of the vine of the body of Christ, and them also being part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), is that the salvation which all Christians have in Christ comes only through the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

    Also, all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire Church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the Church (Romans 11:1b) but also the Gentiles in the Church are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7-8,24) as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28) and as Jesus Christ is (Galatians 3:16,29). So both Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).
     
  3. Daizy

    Daizy New Member

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    Quasar92, "The Olivet Discourse" was written in 3 Books of the Bible: Mark 13; Matthew 24; and Luke 21, with the Book of Mark being the first synoptic gospel written in 70 AD. I don't believe the synoptic gospels were written exclusively for Israel, because of the audiences to whom they were written and because I adhere to the "Futurism" interpretation of these synoptic gospels! These 3 gospels all convey the same messages, but were written to different audiences! The gospel of Matthew was written for a Jewish audience; the gospel of Mark for a Roman audience; and the gospel of Luke for a Gentile audience. Interpretation is also influenced by when a believer thinks that the rapture will occur! Pre-trib; Mid-trib; or post-trib! Some believers today feel that some of the seals have already been opened! IMHO, the Apocalyptic language in the Bible is difficult to interpret, and God intended it that way, for us to remain dependent on him and for his mysteries to be kept hidden, until the time he wants them revealed!!!
     
  4. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are a number of exegetical errors in your above post, such as: 1. There are two "wonderous signs ," recorded from Rev.12:1 to 3. The woman in verses 1-2 represents the virgin Mary. Beginning with verse 3, the woman represents Israel, 2. The Church does not go through any part of the tribulation. 3. The 144,000 Israelites are not connected to the Church in any way. 4. The Church is not Israel in any way. 5. Eschatology cannot be interpreted by attempting to allegorically spiritualize it, as you have done, without making errors of it in the process.

    Applying Scripture Literally.

    This is the first key to understanding all scripture. The fundamental issue to settle is the correct rules of interpreting Bible Prophecy. Different prophetic viewpoints mostly come from differing approaches to interpretation. Literal or Plain Interpretation means we must interpret prophecy like all other scripture - in its plain meaning according to the laws of language, as the author intended it and as the original hearers would have understood it. This has far-reaching consequences. Literal interpretation requires us to read any passage in context, so that our understanding of it must fit with what comes before and after it. Moreover since we believe the whole Bible together forms the Word of God, our interpretation must also fit (agree) with the rest of Scripture.

    Opposing the LITERAL approach is an ALLEGORICAL (spiritualising) approach to prophecy, which allows people to change (twist) the obvious meaning of a verse, to fit their preconceived ideas. The literal approach is to take all scripture in its plain meaning, unless it does not make sense and is obviously meant to be interpreted symbolically. However, the other approach often rejects the literal meaning of a scripture and tries to replace it by a ‘spiritual’ interpretation, even when its plain meaning makes perfect sense. Literal interpretation does not mean we cannot see spiritual parallels to the literal fulfilment or make spiritual applications of it, but first of all, it upholds the literal fulfilment of the prophecy.

    Now prophetic literature (like the Book of Revelation) contains much language that is obviously symbolic and pictorial, to help us understand and visualise unfamiliar spiritual realities by comparing them to familiar things around us. Literal interpretation means we interpret obvious symbolic language accordingly.

    Three examples to test if you read prophecy literally:

    (1) Isaiah 11:6-9: ‘the wolf will lie down with the lamb’. The transformation of the animal kingdom or harmony of all kinds of people in the Church?

    (2) Revelation 7:1-8: Will there literally be 144,000 evangelists from Israel, 12,000 from each tribe, or is this a symbolic of the Church?

    (3) Revelation 20:1-7 Will there be a literal 1,000 years as described here,or is it simply symbolic of a long time-period?

    We can still bring forth spiritual types, analogies and allegories from a literal understanding as long as we don't deny their primary and plain meaning. In fact, it is essential to grasp their plain meaning before making spiritual application from them. Moreover we can apply to the Church, God’s promises to Israel concerning the New Covenant (see Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13), because although the New Covenant belongs first of all to Israel, we have been baptised into Christ (Abraham’s seed), and thus we qualify to participate fully in the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant.

    The main reason that there are so many views and interpretations on Bible prophecy causing much confusion, is the failure to take the Bible literally in this area. (While there are, of course, differences among those who take it literally, these are relatively minor). The ultimate root of this failure to believe the prophetic scriptures according to their plain meaning is of course unbelief.

    We are further encouraged to interpret Prophecy plainly because:
    1. Bible Believers use literal interpretation to interpret all other areas of scripture doctrine. But many spiritualise prophecy. Why should prophecy be the exception? This leads to inconsistencies. For example some prophecies to Israel (the negative ones) are taken literally, while the positive ones are spiritualised and applied to the Church.

    2. Without literal interpretation, there is no way to know the real meaning and no control over how to interpret scripture. It leaves the door open for wild uncontrolled interpretation. It means that we are free to supply whatever meaning we want. Literal interpretation is the only way to be in submission to God's Word (spiritualising allows us to make it mean whatever we want). Otherwise we are in danger of tampering with the word of God which can have serious consequences as Revelation 22:18,19 warns us strongly. We are not to add to it meanings that are not there, or take away from what it is saying, but simply to discover what it is saying in plain language and submit to it.

    3. Some 20% of Bible prophecy has already been fulfilled. HOW? Literally (e.g Jesus was born in literal Bethlehem - Micah 5:2). Will not the rest be fulfilled likewise?

    4. If prophecy is not fulfilled literally how will you know if it has been fulfilled or not? If someone predicts you will get a job in Nottingham next month but you instead you get a job in Oxford, is the prophecy fulfilled? What would you say to someone who says ‘it is fulfilled, for Oxford is spiritual Nottingham’? Or what if a prophecy said you would get a million pounds tomorrow, but nothing arrived and then you were told the prophecy really meant that you would just feel like a million pounds! Would you consider it fulfilled?

    5. If prophecy to Israel is not fulfilled literally to Israel, then God is a deceiver. What if God has made promises to you, only to be told later: ‘I did not mean you, Tom, I was giving the promise to someone else - ‘spiritual Tom’! If God is not faithful to His promises to Israel but breaks His Word to them, then we could have no assurance that He will be faithful to His promises to us!

    6. The reward of reading prophecy literally means the Bible comes alive. It makes sense and it all fits together as a masterpiece, as I hope to show. Much truth is lost in denying the obvious meaning. In previous times it was harder to believe that prophecy would be fulfilled literally. The idea of Israel coming back to the land and of various events of the Book of Revelation taking place may have seemed impossible. But today, as we see the world change scientifically and politically it seems to be right up to date. Now, Bible- believers have no excuse not to believe that it will all be literally fulfilled.

    7. Jesus understood and interpreted prophecy literally (compare Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15). Moreover, as we have already pointed out, His final words of warning (Rev 22:18-20) require us to interpret prophecy in its plain meaning.

    8. The national rebirth of the nation of Israel in 1948, against all odds,
    in fulfilment of Bible Prophecy, is a sure proof that God is fulfillling prophecy literally. When certain courageous believers in the 19th Century pointed out
    that Israel must be restored to her land they they laughed at by those who did not take prophecy literally, because it seemed so impossible. How could a nation be reborn after 2000 years? Such a thing had never been heard of.Yet through the fires of the Holocaust Israel came to birth just as the Bible said it would, and it took its place as the major sign that we are now in the end-times.


    Quasar92




    .
     
  5. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The fact of the matter is, according to the Scriptures, Jesus delivered His Olivet Discourse from the Mount of Olives, one time, to one audience; Israelites. That Matthew, Mark and Luke carried the message to other audiences does not alter that of Jesus. The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, recorded in Jn.7:39.

    Mt.15:24 "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel"

    According to the Scriptures, there can be no other timing of the rapture of the Church, except the pre-tribulation view, as recorded below:

    Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

    The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

    The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

    1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

    2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

    3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

    4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


    Quasar92
     
  6. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Chronology and overlapping meanings are not mutually exclusive.
     
  7. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    The great and wonderous sign in heaven

    There are 2 Women visioned in Revelation.
    I believe it is "Covenantle", where the Woman in Rev 12 represents the NC/Jerusalem/Israel and the Woman in Rev 17 the OC/Jerusalem/Israel.


    Revelation 12:1
    And a great Sign was seen in the heaven
    a Woman having been about-cast/peri-beblhmenh <4016> (5772) the sun
    and the moon underneath of the feet of her


    Reve 17:4
    And the Woman was having been about-cast/peri-beblhmenh <4016> (5772) purple and scarlet and having been gilded to gold and stone, precious, and pearls, having drinkcup, golden, in the hand of her.........................

    Notice how similar Ezekiel 8:3 and Reve 17:3 are:

    Ezekiel 8:3
    He stretched out the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my hair; and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven, and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem,
    to the door of the north gate of the inner court, where the seat of the image of jealousy was, which provokes to jealousy.
    [Revelation 17:3]

    Reve 17:3
    And he carries me away into a wilderness in spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting on a beast, scarlet, being replete of names of blasphemy having heads, seven, and horns, ten. [Ezekiel 8:3]

    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

    THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

    One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source! That's, IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

    95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in the NT book of Revelation.

    That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!

     
  8. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    And let them be for SIGNS...What is THEM? Stars to start with was the way the Old World Navigated, that is a Sign, the North Star etc. etc. and for SEASONS (Years divided into 4 Seasons) and for DAYS so we get a 24 Hour period with one sunset and sunrise, and for YEARS, of course 360 Days makes for a Year.

    So its not speaking of Astrological signs via Babylonian Zodiac, which God warns us against looking unto. But the Signs are Stars whereby we were to use for Navigation, the rest of the Signs of the Days, Months, Years etc.

    There is no SIGN Jesus has already been born and died, the Sign in Rev. 12 is a vision, just like in Rev. 15. There is no prophecy about some magical alignment, the clue is in Genesis 9:37. The Woman is shown to be Israel.

    No it doesn't, the Zodiac was here before Jesus was born.
     
  9. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the word for 'seasons' is used in scriptures over 200 times, and not once does it reference the four seasons. It's used to note appointed times and feasts, or a place of the assembly of congregations.
    So, no. It's not winter, spring, summer, or fall. Never has been, and never will be.
     
  10. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Don't forget the very first one.
     
  11. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    The reason its called APPOINTED TIMES went right over your head it seems. Appointed times = Fall Feasts and Spring Feasts.......what is the Fall and Spring? The Harvest is in the Summer. They are appointed according to the seasons brother, that is what it actually means.

    So you forget why they are APPOINTED....It happens, we lose track of the original means, I have done the same thing.
     
  12. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    If you just read how it's used over and over, you will easily see that is not the case.
     
  13. GUANO

    GUANO Well-Known Member

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    I have no issue with any of that and I certainly agree that the time is getting close. I don't have an issue with any of the methods people use to interpret prophecy per se. I have studied the occult, alchemy, ritual magic, astrology, astrolatry, kabbalah, demonology and the like (but never practiced any of it). People can do what they like but I'm convinced that the heavens mentioned in prophecy is not the sky. The allegorical language used by the prophets and Christ himself is a solid model. The sky, the sun, moon, and stars, beasts, earthquakes, plants, etc all have very specific meanings. Most apocalyptic visions occur in the third 'heaven' which is not the physical world but rather an image of the socio-political landscape. The first heaven is physical, the second is the individual psyche, the third is the collective psyche. In this world, man is the earth and our deeds are the vegetation and fruit therein... human understanding of terrestrial spirits is the same as how the grass understands that its being trampled upon by the beasts of the field (it doesnt).
     
  14. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Only the first five verses of Rev. 12 is written as a parenthesis and not related to the Chronology of the book. In chapter 11 John reaches the exact midpoint of the week in his narrative. After the first five verses of a parenthesis, we get to verse 6 and the fleeing into the wilderness. In respect to Chronology, it is a second or two after the exact midpoint where the man of sin will have entered the most holy place and declared that he is God.

    This will undoubtedly be broadcast within seconds on twitter and many other methods. Those in Judea may well see it on their TV and or smart phone, so will begin their flight within seconds. This fleeing then is exactly what Jesus told those in Judea to do. It is for those living in Judea, NOT for anyone in the US. This fleeing will begin right at the midpoint and very soon after it will be too late. But God will protect those who will flee immediately.
     
  15. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    So God's throne is in the "collective psyche?" I doubt that.
     
  16. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    God placed the Zodiac in the sky to tell the story of mankind. And a Virgin birth was surely a part of the story. His coming - being born of a virgin - is without much doubt the second most important event every to happen on earth. I place the resurrection as #1.
     
  17. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    HI Daisy. I agree on the difficulty of interpretation. But God is a God that reveals secrets. I am convinced that anyone willing to wait on Him for wisdom on the book of Revelation will get it.

    I am one that knows some of the seals have been opened. Jesus opened the first 5 as soon as He ascended. If you study chapters 4 & 5, which are the context for the first seals, you will notice that Jesus gives the timing away: It is when He ascended into heaven, right after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended.

    Notice for example that when John looked into the throne room, Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father. WHY?

    Notice that "no man was found" in the first search that John watched for find one worthy to break the seals. WHY - when we know Jesus was found to be worthy later?

    Notice that the Holy Spirit is IN the throne room in chapter 4, but sent down in chapter 5. I think you know WHEN He was sent down. All this is the TIMING for the first seals.
     
  18. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Judean Christians fled before 70 AD in response to Jesus' warning. Were they wrong to do so?
     
  19. GUANO

    GUANO Well-Known Member

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    God's throne is often seen in or above the 'heavens' within the third heavenly realm ;)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The 'heavenly spheres' are also divided into 7, 9, 10, 11, or 12 depending on the 'model' that is being used.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I wouldn't say any one model is 'authoritative', they are just various ways of arranging the 'forces' into a perceived hierarchy and relation to one another...

    Egyptian:
    [​IMG]
    Sumerian:
    [​IMG]
    Hebrew:
    [​IMG]

    Some of the models above can be broken down in this way:
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are alluding to the Olivet Discourse of Jesus as documented in Mt.24$ through 31. He is responding to three questions His disciples asked Him: the firt one was in reference to when the destruction of the temple would take place, which was fulfilled in 70 A. D. The second question was what the signs of His return would be, and the third, of the end of the age.

    None of the Olivet Discourse has been fulfilled yet, from verses 4 through 31, which include the Judeans fleeing to the hills, the establishing of the abomination that desolates in the temple [A third one not yet built], the Great Tribulation, disturbances in the sun and the moon to the return of Jesus in His second coming. None of which took place in 70 A.D.


    Quasar92
     
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