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Featured The great and wonderous sign in heaven

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Sep 11, 2017.

  1. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Birth of Jesus: Scripturally connected by Mt.24:30 and Rev.12:1-2

    The essential factor in interpreting the symbol of Revelation 12:1–2 is the identification of the woman. What is John signifying by mentioning her? This much is certain: the woman in the first three verses is featured as being in heaven and both the Sun and the Moon are in association with her. After the dragon casts down a third of the stars of heaven (Revelation 12:4), the woman is then found on earth (verses 6 and 14). But the important factor is the birth of the man-child and the Woman’s relationship with the heavenly signs while she is symbolically in heaven. (The first three verses of Revelation 12 shows the Sun clothing her, the Moon under her feet and the Twelve Stars on her head).

    The “birth” of the Messiah is associated with this heavenly spectacle. Since some noted heavenly bodies are a part of the picture, it could well be that John intended the woman to represent a constellation that the two primary luminaries transverse, and that she was a part of the zodiacal system which gives headship to the signs (the Twelve Stars were a “crown” upon her head). Recall that interpreting astronomical signs dominated the thinking of most people in the 1st century, whether the people were Jews or Gentiles. Indeed, the word “sign” used by the author of the Book of Revelation to describe this celestial display was the same one used by the ancients to denote the zodiacal constellations. 17

    This is made clearer when one looks closely at the text. Since the Sun and Moon are amidst or in line with the body of this woman, she could be, in a symbolic way, a constellation located within the normal paths of the Sun and Moon. The only sign of a woman which exists along the ecliptic (the track of the Sun in its journey through the stars) is that of Virgo the Virgin. She occupies, in body form, a space of about 50 degrees along the ecliptic. The head of the woman actually bridges some 10 degrees into the previous sign of Leo and her feet overlap about 10 degrees into the following sign of Libra, the Scales. In the period of Jesus’ birth, the Sun entered in its annual course through the heavens into the head position of the woman about August 13, and exited from her feet about October 2. But the apostle John saw the scene when the Sun was “clothing” or “adorning” the woman. This surely indicates that the position of the Sun in the vision was located somewhere mid-bodied to the woman, between the neck and the knees. The Sun could hardly be said to clothe her if it were situated in her face or near her feet.

    The Sun Clothed the Woman

    The only time in the year that the Sun could be in a position to “clothe” the celestial woman called Virgo (that is, to be mid-bodied to her, in the region where a pregnant woman carries a child) is when the Sun is located between about 150 and 170 degrees along the ecliptic. This “clothing” of the woman by the Sun occurs for a 20-day period each year. This 20 degree spread could indicate the general time when Jesus was born. In 3 B.C.E., the Sun would have entered this celestial region about August 27 and exited from it about September 15. If John in the Book of Revelation is associating the birth of Jesus with the period when the Sun was mid-bodied to this woman called Virgo (and this is no doubt what he means), then Jesus would have to be born within that 20-day period. From the point of view of the Magi who were astrologers, this would have been the only logical sign under which the Jewish Messiah might be born, especially if He was to be born of a virgin. Even today, astrologers recognize that the sign of Virgo is the one which has reference to a messianic world ruler to be born from a virgin. 18

    This heavenly woman called Virgo is normally depicted as a virgin holding in her right hand a green branch and in her left hand a sprig of grain. In the Hebrew Zodiac, she at first (in the time of David) denoted Ruth who was gleaning in the fields of Boaz. She then later became the Virgin when the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 was given in the time of King Hezekiah and the prophet Isaiah. This Virgin held in her left hand a sprig of grain. This was precisely where the bright star called Spica is found. Indeed, the chief star of the constellation Virgo is Spica.

    Bullinger, in his book The Witness of the Stars (pp. 29–34), said that the word “Spica” has, through the Arabic, the meaning “the branch” and that it symbolically refers to Jesus who was prophetically called “the Branch” in Zechariah 3:8 and 6:12. And Bullinger (and Seiss in his book The Gospel in the Stars) maintains that this sign of Virgo designates the heavenly witness for the birth of the Messiah (Jesus). They say that Virgo should actually begin the zodiacal signs which give the story of the Messiah. This may be. The apostle John may have given the same indication as far as the first full sign of the zodiac is concerned. He depicted the woman of Revelation as having a crown of Twelve Stars on her head.

    This could well show that the woman (Virgo) is the constellation of headship for all the twelve signs. The “head” position of Virgo is located within the last ten degrees of Leo. It was in this very region where the story of the career of the Messiah would begin that Bullinger and Seiss referred to. Thus, the story of Jesus and his mission on earth, as related by these heavenly symbols, should logically begin with his birth from a virgin and conclude with him being crowned king in the final sign of Leo the Lion (with its chief star being Regulus ― the King star). This is no doubt what the apostle John was trying to show through the symbols found in Revelation 12.

    The birth of this child in Revelation 12 (whom John identified with Jesus) should have occurred while the Sun was “clothing” the woman, when the Sun was mid-bodied to Virgo. This period of time in 3 B.C.E. covered 20 days (August 27 to September 15). If Jesus were born within that 20-day period, it would fit most remarkably with the testimony of Luke (relative to the birth of John the Baptist and the eighth course of Abijah). Indeed, the chronological indications associated with the priestly course of Abijah place Jesus’ birth exactly within this period. But there is a way to arrive at a much closer time for Jesus’ birth than a simple 20-day period. The position of the Moon in John’s vision actually pinpoints the nativity to within a day ― even to within a period of an hour and a half (within 90 minutes) on that day. This may appear an absurd assessment on the surface, but it is quite possible.

    The key is the Moon. The apostle said it was located “under her feet.” What does the word “under” signify in this case? Does it mean the woman of the vision was standing on the Moon when John observed it or does it mean her feet were positioned slightly above the Moon? John does not tell us. This, however, is not of major consequence in using the location of the Moon to answer our question because it would only involve the difference of a degree or two. The Moon travels about 12 degrees a day in its course through the heavens. This motion of one or two degrees by the Moon represents on earth a period of only two to four hours. This difference is no problem in determining the time of Jesus’ birth. What is vital, however, is that this shows the Moon as a New Moon.

    The Precise Position of the Moon is Important

    Now note this point. Since the feet of Virgo the Virgin represent the last 7 degrees of the constellation (in the time of Jesus this would have been between about 180 and 187 degrees along the ecliptic), the Moon has to be positioned somewhere under that 7 degree arc to satisfy the description of Revelation 12. But the Moon also has to be in that exact location when the Sun is mid-bodied to Virgo. In the year 3 B.C.E., these two factors came to precise agreement for about an hour and a half, as observed from Palestine or Patmos, in the twilight period of September 11th The relationship began about 6:15 p.m. (sunset), and lasted until around 7:45 p.m. (moonset). This is the only day in the whole year that the astronomical phenomenon described in the twelfth chapter of Revelation could take place.
    This also shows one other important point. The Moon was in crescent phase. It was a New Moon day, the start of a new lunar month. (See plates one and two below which show early depictions of the celestial scene of Revelation 12:1–3 and how the Moon is shown to be in its crescent phase.)

    Modern Man and Astronomical Motions

    While ordinary people in modern times who are not professional astronomers have little knowledge of the solar, lunar, planetary and stellar motions, the people from the 1st century up to the Industrial Revolution were well accustomed to them. Even people of little education were generally knowledgeable of the main motions of the astronomical bodies — even more than most college-educated people today. When anyone of early times read Revelation 12:1–3, an astronomical relationship was realized at once. There was no doubt that a New Moon display was being shown to them. And when the woman of the sign was interpreted as Virgo the Virgin, and with the Sun mid-bodied to the Virgin, they clearly saw a New Moon day occurring sometime in late summer.
    The apostle John said this heavenly relationship occurred at the time of Jesus’ birth. And in 3 B.C.E. this exact combination of celestial factors happened just after sunset only on one day of the year. It was on September 11th. It could not have occurred at any other time of the year. Indeed, even one day before ― on September 10 ― the Moon would have been located above the Virgin’s feet with the crescent not visible, while one day farther ― on September 12 ― the Moon had moved too far beyond the feet of the Virgin, at least 25 diameters of the Moon east of her feet. Thus, only one day applies. That day was just after sunset on September 11th, 3 B.C.E.

    The Exact Day of Jesus’ Birth

    The apostle John is presenting to his readers something of profound significance in a symbolic way. Revelation 12:1–3 shows a New Moon day that could only be observed from earth just after sunset, and the day was September 11th. This fits well with Luke’s description of the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem. Recall that,
    “there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over the flock by night ... and the angel said ... unto you is born this day [which began at sundown] in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.”

    Luke 2:8–11

    Jesus was born in early evening, and Revelation 12 shows it was a New Moon day.

    What New Moon could this have been? The answer is most amazing. It is almost too amazing! September 11, 3 B.C.E. was Tishri One on the Jewish calendar. To Jewish people this would have been a very profound occasion indeed. Tishri One is none other than the Jewish New Year’s day (Rosh ha-Shanah, or as the Bible calls it, The Day of Trumpets ― Leviticus 23:23–26). It was an important annual holy day of the Jews (but not one of the three annual festivals that required all Palestinian Jews to be in Jerusalem).

    What a significant day for the appearance of the Messiah to arrive on earth from the Jewish point of view! And remarkably, no other day of the year could astronomically fit Revelation 12:1–3. The apostle John is certainly showing forth an astronomical sign which answers precisely with the Jewish New Year Day. John would have realized the significance of this astronomical scene that he was describing.

    In the next chapter I will show the symbolic and religious meaning of this New Year’s day as interpreted by the Jews (and consequently by the apostles and early Christians) as it relates to the Messiah and his kingship. The information may provide a better understanding why the early apostles of the 1st century, and many Jews and Gentiles, so quickly came to accept Jesus as the Messiah.

    Whatever the case, the historical evidence supports the nativity of Jesus in 3 B.C.E., at the beginning of a Roman census, and (if we use the astronomical indications of the Book of Revelation) his birth would have occurred just after sundown on September 11th, on Rosh ha-Shanah, the Day of Trumpets — the Jewish New Year Day for governmental affairs. There could hardly have been a better day in the ecclesiastical calendar of the Jews to introduce the Messiah to the world from a Jewish point of view; and no doubt this is what the apostle John clearly intended to show by the sign he recorded in Revelation 12.


    By Ernest L. Martin, PhD.


    Edit: IMO, the twelve star crown the woman is wearing represents the twelve tribes of Israel, not the zodiacal signs.
    The Constellations she is in tell us exactly who she is: 80% in Virgo, the virgin, as Mary, who is pregnant andin pain, ready to give birth to Jesus. with her head 10% into the Constellation of Leo, the Lion of Judah, revealing which tribe Jesus came from, and 10% into the Constellation of Lybra, the scales of righteousness and justice, a clear representation of Jesus.

    Which is what Jesus was referring to in Mt.24:30, when He referred to the sign of the Son of Man appearing, at His second coming, in Setember of the year, at the time of the Autumnal Equinox. "Time, time and the dividing of time." Dan.7:25 KJV.

    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
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  2. Another Lazarus

    Another Lazarus Old Newbie

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    Revelation 12 actually divided in 2 different times:

    1. When the dragon still have place in heaven
    during the early birth of the church.
    2. When the dragon is cast out from heaven at the end time situation, not yet happened.

    The baby is Jesus who was born from the Hebrew.

    The woman who run away to wilderness is the Hebrew/christians since destruction of Jerusalem AD 70.

    This is an excellent study :
    The Little Horn of Daniel
     
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  3. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    That would be cool if the sign actually indicated the birth of Jesus.
     
  4. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    There is the possibility of the astronomical sign of Sept. 23 could be significant. The fact that it's a year of Jubilee could be significant. A couple of record breaking Hurricanes and a serious earthquake in Mexico. The fact that North Korea now has the capability of delivering a nuclear weapon half way across the globe could be significant. We are approaching the fall feasts of the Levitical law, that could be a factor.

    I've dabbled in end time projections, but I've never seen a time that had me more concerned.
     
  5. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It could well be the time for Jesus to come for all of us who belong to Him, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28 and 1 Thess.4:16-17. Rejoice!

    Lk.21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."


    Quasar92
     
  6. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Astrology.............

    There is no Prophecy in Rev. 12:1-5, it is an Encoded History Lesson, it sets up the prophecy which is Rev. 12:6-17 so that we understand who the players are without revealing to the "World" who the players are, but Gods peoples knows who the players are.

    This whole IN VIRGO angle is not of God.

    Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

    So a Sign in Heaven is really about a Constellation? Mope, its about a VISION.

    The Sun, Moon and Stars are only a code that is solved in Genesis 37:9
     
  7. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That's right.

    And note that the woman in Revelation 12 represents the Church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she's clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the Church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the Church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

    Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the Church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

    Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the Church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the Church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and be persecuted in every nation, being imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1 the Church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10) but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the Church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the Church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the Church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the Church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).
     
  8. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Actually it depicts a mid-tribulation event, Israel fleeing the armies of the antichrist after they repent. After the last trumpet is sounded the Antichrist three years or so where he does pretty much whatever he wants. However the one thing he can't do is destroy Israel even though he tries. These are the Jewish believers that will go into the millennial kingdom with the church. Along with the 144,000 they are someplace safe and protected.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  9. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Well yes, that is what I said, Rev. 12:6-17 is exactly what you described. Rev. 12:1-5 are PAST EVENTS..........Not some Astrology sign in Heaven, that is of the Devil.

    Israel brought forth Jesus who the Dragon via King Herod tried to kill, Jesus then Ascended to Heaven. ALL PAST EVENTS....Not prophecy brother. John used it as a CODE to encode the real Prophecy (FUTURE EVENTS) in verses 6-17.
     
  10. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Well Jesus said there would be some indicators, one was signs in the heavens. This particular theory I liked, not because I thought it was accurate but because I thought it was pretty creative and kind of interesting. I think Christians get anxious for the return of Christ and start seeing patterns in the shadows because the want this to get started, because they know how it ends. But I have to agree this is strangely like astrology which is a big no no in the Scriptures. We will all see him soon enough and believing as I do, in a post tribulation rapture, I'm not exactly enthusiastic about the idea of the Antichrist making his appearance in a couple of weeks.

    If we could figure it out you best believe the Devil would know, and Jesus will come when no one is expecting it. I understand how Christians are naturally anxious for this to get underway but it's like Aunt Jane's pickle formula, no one knows because God doesn't tell anyone.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
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  11. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    He does figure it out, that's why the dragon is awaiting the birth. He figures it out because Revelation is the revealing of these events from the Father to the Son, and passed on to John. He's not stupid like many of us, as he believes what has been revealed.

    There is no reason whatsoever to think the birth in Rev 12 is a past event. At least 3 times we are told these are future events and the child and his circumstances does not match the birth or ascension of Jesus. If the scripture is having a flashback to a previous documented event, I'd at least expect it to be accurate.
     
  12. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    It does sound very much like the Devil trying to devour the Christ child, I suspect that is an element in the prophetic oracle. But this is after the two witnesses are killed and raised, right at the middle point of the tribulation. It sounds like an event in the tribulation involving Israel, as an expositional challenge there is no question, this happens three and a half years in the tribulation. The woman is Israel and I thing the child being born speaks prophetically both of the historical birth of Christ and his return. Neither of those are going to be fulfilled in the upcoming weeks.
     
  13. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Revelation is not chronological.
     
  14. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Yes it is
     
  15. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    The Prophecy is a FUTURE EVENT....But the Prophecy is Rev. 12:6-17, Rev. 12:1-5 is a CODE. Anyone that can't understand Rev. 12:1-5 is past events is just not using their common sense IMHO.

    So IS THIS a past event?

    Rev. 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

    OR THIS !!!

    Rev. 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

    So which is it? Does everything in Revelation have to be FUTURE EVENTS? Of Course not, there can be CLUES that push us unto understanding what the Prophesies are, mixed in with the prophesies themselves, which are PAST EVENTS.

    Rev. 12:1-5 is crystal clear.
     
  16. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    That thought is why you are confused about the sign.
     
  17. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    The event there is the angel showing the judgment... still future.

    Do you see any past tense in Rev 12 to indicate a past event? Me either. Besides, this is describing the characteristic about something future. Sorry.

    This is pick your own delusion time. Bendy, twisty scripture. Make it say whatever you want with pretext.

    It is. Someday you'll see it properly. Start with the question why the vision portrays the birth and ascension of Jesus inaccurately, if that's what it is supposedly describing. Doesn't God know what happened? Until you come to that realization, that this describes something similar, yet different, you will remain in the dark.
     
  18. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    You are confused because it is ASTROLOGY...But you are right, Revelation is nowhere near in Chronological order.
     
  19. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    The Coming Judgment, but the passages I showed you are past, the FIVE HAVE FALLEN and ONE IS was Rome. The Harlot has FORNICATED with the Kings (PAST EVENTS) Come on and admit it. We all know that the Woman is Israel (See Gen. 37:9) and the male child is Jesus. Its just a CODE because it was not wise for John to write that God was going to PROTECT ISRAEL, when Rome had just destroyed Israel, that's called TREASON/SEDITION and would have brought Church members who had that Letter/Book much troubles, the book might have been destroyed etc. etc. It was ENCODED for a reason my brother. Out of 404 verses 289 have Old Testament verbiage in them. Everything in Revelation is ENCODED with the Old Testament, that is the key to unlocking it.

    Yes, everyone but you "SIGN GUYS" understand its about Israel/Jesus/Satan.

    Is this another SIGN IN HEAVEN of stars Also? NO its a Vision, just like Rev. 12.

    Rev. 15:And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

    Or let me change the subject time because his argument trounces mine.

    No, I am not delving into Astrology, I will leave that for you guys. See you the 24th.
     
  20. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That's right, but note the fleeing woman in Revelation 12:6 can represent the single entity of the Church/Israel.

    For just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

    That is, all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

    Also, all those in the Church, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    That's right.

    Also, the 144,000 will be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so will be part of the Church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the Church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could already be part of the Church. For they will be alive on the earth, and will already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the 1st stage of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the Tribulation along with the rest of the Church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Also, the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the Church for the reasons given earlier.

    The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they're from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).
     
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