• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.
  7. There has been an addition to the announcement regarding unacceptable nick names. The phrase "Let's go Brandon" actually stands for a profanity and will be seen as a violation of the profanity rule in the future.

LDS The Gospel

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Yodas_Prodigy1, Apr 17, 2019.

  1. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

    +9,095
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Because no one can come up with any substantive evidence of the existence of the Nephites in North America, then the belief that the Book of Mormon is the word of God is an example of 'faith in faith'. "If I believe it, then it is true". This is the central principle of Existential philosophy. Modernist philosophers have rejected the Bible and the God of the Bible, but they need an alternative to avoid total pessimism and hopelessness, so they have taken a "leap of faith" to believe that God is in everything and everyone, that Jesus is the "Christ of faith" instead of the Jesus of history. In essence, modernist theologians have changed the meaning of the words "God", "Christ", "faith" to believe something quite different to the Bible definition of the words.

    So, to have faith in the Book of Mormon, one must adopt the same existential philosophy. The only other alternative is to view the Book as creative fiction, which is unacceptable to Mormon believers. Even though they are presented with the total lack of anthropological and archaeological evidence supporting the events depicted, they still believe it is the Word of God because they are taking the "leap of faith" that it is true. It seems that this type of faith leap totally ignores any evidence that could show that the personal lives of church leaders are inconsistent with what they are preaching. They will quickly dismiss this evidence as "lies" because their faith leap is the "truth" that they are determined to keep.

    This is very similar to the belief of the Jewish Pharisees who saw the miracles of Jesus happening right in front of them, yet they strictly kept their strong and absolute belief that the Messiah had to come in a certain way, and because Jesus came in a different way, they would not believe in Him. They ignored the absolute evidence in front of them in favour of their "faith leap" interpretation of Scripture that ignored the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah that showed clearly that Jesus was their Messiah. They believed absolutely that their Messiah was going to come as a powerful king who was going to eject the Romans and establish Jewish sovereignty. Not even the evidence presented before them would stop them believing their own interpretation.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  2. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    +486
    Mormon
    Married
    2 different instance in the bible, the apostles of Jesus Christ mistook his flesh body for his spirit body.
    1)
    Mark 6:48-50 King James Version (KJV)
    48 And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them.
    49 But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out:
    50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid.

    So here you have Jesus walking on the water, the apostles all saw him, but they were thinking it was his spirit. So the apostles obviously thought that Jesus's spirit looked just like his flesh body.
    2)
    Luke 24:36-37 King James Version (KJV)
    36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
    37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

    So again, the apostles thought Jesus was a spirit. So it is obvious that they thought the spirit looks just like the flesh body.

    All spirit is made of a fine or pure matter, not seen by human eyes. This spirit body is eternal and indwells in you, and gives you life. See this scripture:
    Luke 8:54-56 King James Version (KJV)
    54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
    55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
    56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

    This is Jairus's daughter and while her spirit was gone, she lie dead. But when Jesus touched her, her spirit returned to her and she came alive.

    All spirit is the same, our personal spirit, and the Holy Spirit. The same substance.
    Here is a scripture that says that is so:
    Romans 8:16 King James Version (KJV)
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.

    Here it says that the Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit. Are they talking, yes. Where are they having this conversation? Inside my body. Both the Holy Spirit and my spirit are so fine that they can both indwell in a body of flesh and bone.

    So 2 personages of matter can dwell in 1 body, as per the bible.
     
  3. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,936
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    You teach some of Mormonism and expect Christians to believe you? There is no evidence anywhere that spirit is matter! Smiley forehead slap.gif
     
  4. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +6,747
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others

    No--Daniel still would not have needed to translate anything as he, and all of God's prophets, were spoken to directly by God. Nothing required any interpretation, as God never spoke to them, nor gave them anything that required them to get it translated. He told them in their own language what He wanted them to know. JS needed an occult, stolen stone, because he was no prophet of God. The messages he received were not from God. And if he actually saw an angel of light, it was Satan.
    2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
     
  5. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    +486
    Mormon
    Married
    OK bible scholar, you tell us what you think spirit is made of?
     
  6. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +6,747
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others
    Colossians 1:15
    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.


    Hebrews 11:27
    By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.


    John 1:18
    No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.


    1 Timothy 6:16
    who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

    Exodus 33:20
    But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

    Job 9:11
    "Were He to pass by me, I would not see Him; Were He to move past me, I would not perceive Him.
    Job 23:8
    "Behold, I go forward but He is not there, And backward, but I cannot perceive Him;

    John 5:37
    "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

    1 Timothy 1:17
    Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

    1 John 4:12
    No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

    Romans 1:20
    For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

    Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
    Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
    Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


    God can not be defined by any known substance. He is above and beyond what we can understand. To say He is matter isn't accurate. He is spirit--He is invisasble. He is outside of time. His dimension is not the same as ours. He exists outside of our dimension. His dimension may not have the need of matter at all. He can create matter and He can alter it. Our world, our dimension, contains matter. He can not be contained. What He says is. His word is power and makes something out of nothing. The sound waves He produces are a creative force. He can become anything He wants--He can make Himself visible if He wants but has not done so. What has been seen is His Son when He became human. In the OT, it was His Son that was seen by Moses--but only His back parts, before the incarnation, His face was not seen. He spoke face to face with Moses--that is a euphomysim for God spoke directly to Moses, not just in the mind of Moses, as He does to the rest of us through His Holy Spirit. You can not see love--you can only experience it. God is love.

    It is you who must state why you believe spirit is matter---the bible does not say what it is. This also is from the mind of JS only. He never saw Him, He never knew Him. You can't describe what you do not know.
     
  7. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +6,747
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others
    Sorry! I butted into a conversation between you and Phoebe Ann!! Didn't see that!
     
  8. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

    +9,095
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    This is an example of making the Scripture say something it doesn't. It says they thought that they had seen a spirit, not Jesus' spirit. They did not recognise that the person walking on the water or who appeared in the room with them was actually Jesus but a ghost. The word for "spirit" in these two references is the Elizabethan word for "ghost".
     
  9. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,936
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    I don't mind at all. I think a post in a thread is for everyone. Am I wrong?
     
  10. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

    +355
    United States
    Mormon
    Married
    Your opinion has been noted, however, the Book of Mormon is not satanic and only encourages people to believe in God, repent, and keep His commandments. Sin is of the devil.
     
  11. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,936
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    No, it's EVIL. You look at it with rosy glasses.
     
  12. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

    +9,095
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    I have no doubt about that, and I respect the sincerity of the multitudes of Mormon believers who believe in Christ, that He rose from the dead, and are trying their best to live holy lives.
     
  13. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +6,747
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others
    BOM can not be from God---He was never human, He has no wife, much less several, Jesus is His only Son, and He was always God with His Father before He became human. Satan is a liar and has lied about God and His Son through JS. There are no 3 levels of salvation, you are either lost or saved. God created from nothing. God granted Adam and Eve permission to be fruitful and multiply before they fell. God's substance is absolutely not known, and no one can say that He is blood and bone. Satan has always wanted to bring God down to a lower level than He is and has done so through JS while at the same time trying to get us to elevate ourselves to think we can become god which is what Satan always wanted. JS leads away from the bible and the God of the bible to himself and his writings. He even considers himself to be judging others alongside Jesus and that no lone can enter heaven unless they go through him! The whole of the OT pointed to Jesus--Jesus always pointed to God the Father. JS points to himself. JS is not a prophet of God. Lies about God are from the devil.
     
  14. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

    +9,095
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    I think that he is pretty well correct in his belief about the Book of Mormon, that is, if it was just that book - although the account of the Nephites cannot be proved, and that my view is that most Mormons (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) take a "leap of faith" instead of using their reason to establish their belief in it. Francis Schaeffer wrote an excellent book called "Escape From Reason" that explains how and why people shut off their reason and use faith in faith to give them a basis for optimism.

    But it is the other writings that record other doctrines and teachings which are objectionable to those outside of Mormonism. My view is that most of the rank and file Mormons are unaware of these central teachings which are not contained in the Book of Mormon that was dictated to Joseph Smith.

    But then as an ex-Mormon you can correct and enlighten me as you wish.
     
  15. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

    +9,095
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Joseph Smith rejected the established churches after meeting up with two shining persons, and he asked them which church he should attend, and they said none of them. So, in effect, he rejected the God of the Bible. His reasoning brain would have told him that rejecting the God of the Bible destroys any optimism, because if man is just a bag of chemicals, then life has no meaning. But, as with modernist theologians, he has had to switch off the reasoning faculty of his brain and take a leap of faith in a God and Christ of his imagination, and this new religious 'faith' needed a set of Scriptures, so the angel Moroni pops up with a set of golden tablets with the very set of "scriptures" he needs to establish the foundation of his newfound "faith".

    I think this is why Mormon believers will argue tooth and nail for their faith, because the alternative is nothing but pessimism. They cannot believe in the God of the Bible, because all the representative churches are hypocrites and apostate in their view. If they abandon their 'leap of faith' and go back to depending on their reason, then all they have is life without meaning and purpose. They lose their foundation and slide down into depression and hopelessness. This is why they are so adamant about what they believe. It is either Mormonism or the pessimistic, meaningless, hopeless void - much like the 'outer darkness' of depression and misery where 'men shall wail and gnash their teeth'.
     
  16. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

    +355
    United States
    Mormon
    Married
    You have strong opinions but they don't agree with the Bible. It is man's opinion that God created everything out of nothing. We know that Jesus Christ has a body of flesh and bones:

    (New Testament | Luke 24:39)

    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
    (New Testament | Ephesians 5:30)

    30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

    So if you believe in the Nicene Creed that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are of the same substance, then they must all have flesh and bones. It also means that the universe was not void of matter because God has always existed. Satan, on the other hand, does not want us to believe that we can become like our Father in heaven. Partaking of the fruit was necessary for man to become like God:

    (Old Testament | Genesis 3:22)

    22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
     
  17. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,936
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed

    I will enlighten you a bit:

    1 Nephi 13 (600 B.C.)
    29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away [the Bible]it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

    1 Nephi 14
    10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.


    Ether 3
    14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

    Alma 7
    10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

    2 Nephi 2
    22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

    23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

    2 Nephi 5
    21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

    2 Nephi 25
    21 Wherefore, for this cause hath the Lord God promised unto me that these things which I write shall be kept and preserved, and handed down unto my seed, from generation to generation, that the promise may be fulfilled unto Joseph, that his seed should never perish as long as the earth should stand.

    You are right about one thing:

    Joseph Smith added a whole slew of false teachings in two other books he called scripture!
     
  18. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,936
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    Absolute garbage!
     
  19. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +6,747
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others
    No Christian disagrees that Jesus had a human body---after the incarnation---not before!! Jesus and God the Father were of the same substance from everlasting---but Jesus gave up that substance to become human. You do not, can not understand the great price that Jesus paid for your sins! We will all become as He is now--glorified humans. And we do not know what exactly that means. For we were never divine as Jesus was before the incarnation--and He retains that divinity also, but we never will.

    It was not God's will for them to know good and evil---He wanted them to only know the good. However, God did make provision for this, but not that He wanted that to happen---that is free will in action.
     
  20. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

    +355
    United States
    Mormon
    Married
    God did not ask Joseph Smith to reject the Bible nor did the angel Moroni. The Bible is mostly right but it does disagree with itself on occasion. One of these is:
    (New Testament | John 1:18)

    18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    We know of an assuredly that Adam did indeed see God. Jacob also saw God:

    (Old Testament | Genesis 33:10)

    10 And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me. There is one sure way to live with God:

    (New Testament | John 14:23 - 24)

    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
Loading...