The Gospel Verses Religion

RobertPate

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2007
944
236
✟44,551.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
How could I possibly be in support of it? It is an evil heretical cult which seeks to mix Christianity with elements of Islam, which has proven itself to be one of the two greatest threats to Christianity, along with Communism, and it denies the deity of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ. And by specifically thriving in the context of the Yoruba people, it threatens to undo the work of the many heroic missionaries both from abroad and among the Yoruba themselves who have dedicated their life, and in some cases even received a crown of martyrdom, so as to spread the Gospel among these people.

By the way, what does Chrislam have to do with anything in my post you replied to? :scratch: Forgive me, but I am just not seeing the connection, and begging your pardon, it feels to some extent like you might as well have asked me what I think of Rastafarianism or the Moonies.
I thought that maybe you were a Catholic. The Pope has embraced Islam and calls it Chrislam. Guess that I made a mistake.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
RELIGION: Man's preoccupation with his own spirituality. His works, his obedience, his piety, himself.

THE GOSPEL: What God has accomplished in his Son Jesus Christ. His victory over sin, death and the devil.
Thanks for the interesting topic. I like these working defiitions for discussion.

Like you, I imagine, I don't see any requirement for religious activity as caveat for salvation.
The Gospel is a "right now" realization, not a find-out-later-if-you-made-it arrangement. (religion)
The Gospel is grace. Religion is a treadmill going nowhere. (think hamster wheel)
 
  • Like
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How could I possibly be in support of it? It is an evil heretical cult which seeks to mix Christianity with elements of Islam, which has proven itself to be one of the two greatest threats to Christianity...
But we're all good with Christianity mixed with Roman paganism, right? Happy Easter.
Maybe we should cut the Chrislamists a little slack based on our own religious/cultural past.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,180
5,708
49
The Wild West
✟475,582.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
But we're all good with Christianity mixed with Roman paganism, right? Happy Easter.
Maybe we should cut the Chrislamists a little slack based on our own religious/cultural past.
The idea that Christianity incorporates any substantial elements of Roman Paganism other than reusing some former Pagan temples that frankly it would have been wasteful to demolish, like the Pantheon, which makes a superb church and provides us with an invaluable example of a still-intact Roman building (we also reused the one of the Curiae of the Roman Senate, the one built on the forum by Gaius Julius Caesar, as a church, and many secular basilicas, so the reappropriation of Roman architecture was not limited to religious buildings), has been thoroughly debunked many times on this forum and can further be debunked by an in-depth study of Roman civil religion, Hellenic Paganism, Arianism, the history of the fourth century, and also the history of Patristics in general and apokatastasis in particular, for example, St. Gregory of Nyssa and Origen Adimantius, who are very much on your side when it comes to questions of soteriology.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The idea that Christianity incorporates any substantial elements of Roman Paganism other than reusing some former Pagan temples that frankly it would have been wasteful to demolish, like the Pantheon, which makes a superb church and provides us with an invaluable example of a still-intact Roman building (we also reused the one of the Curiae of the Roman Senate, the one built on the forum by Gaius Julius Caesar, as a church, and many secular basilicas, so the reappropriation of Roman architecture was not limited to religious buildings), has been thoroughly debunked many times on this forum and can further be debunked by an in-depth study of Roman civil religion, Hellenic Paganism, Arianism, the history of the fourth century, and also the history of Patristics in general and apokatastasis in particular, for example, St. Gregory of Nyssa and Origen Adimantius, who are very much on your side when it comes to questions of soteriology.
So, you are more concerned with the debatable idea that Roman paganism had some influence on Christianity than with cutting the Chrislamists a little slack?

No Christian celebrations that parallel paganism? Not Easter, Christmas, All Saints Day... ???
Where did "hell" come from?
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,180
5,708
49
The Wild West
✟475,582.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
No Christian celebrations that parallel paganism? Not Easter, Christmas, All Saints Day... ???

The idea that Easter came from a Pagan fertility rite is a conspiracy theory based on the name of the feast in certain Western European countries like England during the Anglo-Saxon period, which were at the time backwaters which had been out of contact with the rest of Christendom, and whose churches barely survived, during the Dark Ages that followed the collapse of the government in Rome.*

However, the majority of Christian countries refer to Easter as Pascha, meaning Passover in Greek, or some variant on it, for example, the Dutch call it Passen. This is because Pascha is the Christian continuation of Passover, as is indicated by our Lord modifying the Passover seder into a sacrifice of Himself. For that matter, the Eastern Orthodox and some Oriental Orthodox strongly prefer to call it Pascha when speaking in English, as this also helps denote the fact that it is celebrated according to the Paschalion adopted at the Council of Nicaea, which, according to the Julian Calendar, is the first Sunday after the Vernal Equinox, approximating the 14th of Nissan in 33 AD, and this was necessary because in the second century the Rabbis, the sole surviving mainstream Jewish authorities** had changed the Jewish calendar; later the Karaite Jews, which emerged around the 6th or 7th century as an anti-Rabinnical, Sola Scriptura protest movement, attempted to recreate the old calendar based on observations of the barley crop in the Holy Land, but it is unclear if their calendar was a success.

Christmas likewise was not dated to compete with Sol Invictus or the Saturnalia, although this was a happy accident. Rather, historically, the Feast of the Annunciation on March 25th and the Feast of The Epiphany on January 6th, commemorating the Baptism of our Lord, were more important, and our Lord’s nativity was celebrated at the same time as his baptism, and in fact still is in the Armenian Apostolic Churches (one of the four surviving Oriental Orthodox ethno/linguistic groups, along with the Syriacs, Copts and Abyssinians; there was also an Oriental Orthodox church among the Numidians, located in the Sudan, but this was destroyed by Islamic persecution. When you add nine months to the Annunciation, you get December 25th. Oh, as a fun fact, while in many Christian churches the Ecclesiastical year begins around September 1st, or the first Sunday of Advent, in the past it commonly began on March the 25th in parts of Western Europe, and just as the Byzantine civil calendar began on September 1st, in those countries, it began on March 25th.

That Christmas drew Romans living in Rome away from a specifically Roman festival is a happy accident, because contrary to popular belief, Rome was actually somewhat isolated in the Early Church by its use of Latin rather than Greek; it was extremely conservative for most of the first few centuries of its existence, especially between the third century and the Council of Chalcedon, which marked the first time the Bishop of Rome played a major role in an ecumenical council, and Roman representation at the Ecumenical councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and Ephesus was dramatically less, with Greek bishops dominating all seven of the historic Ecumemical Councils, numerically speaking, and Rome usually sending legates as opposed to bishops.

We find another such happy accident with the Feast of the Presentation of our Lord, on February 2nd, known in the West as Candlemas. This coincided with the Roman fertility festival of Lupercalia, but could not have been any more different, for in Lupercalia, wealthy Roman young men would run naked through the streets, whereas Candlemas has always been a solemn, beautiful and reverent affair.

Your remark on Hell is also, forgive me, without merit, because one could use the same logic to argue that Heaven is of Pagan origins, since after all, the Chinese Folk Religion, Nordic Paganism with Valhalla, Egyptian paganism with the Afterlife, and many others feature it. Buddhism features multiple Heavens and Hells.

The similarity of other religions to the ancient Hebrew religion, Second Temple Judaism, and Christianity makes sense when we consider that the devil works by distorting the truth, and also makes sense in light of the doctrine of General Revelation, that being that God imparts an idea of Himself and the truth to all humans. This is a concept you should actively embrace.

Really, the only viable arguments in favor of Universalism come from those you seem to believe are Pagan, such as Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and the Asyrian Church of the East in the late first millennium, for example, St. Isaac the Syrian and the Bishop of Basra, which has celebrated Christmas and Pascha as long as any other church.

I have to confess, I am a bit disappointed with this argument, because it does not advance your views on Universalism, and also, if you recall, I historically have made a point of telling you I respect your personal piety and decency. I myself, like Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, hope all may be saved, while admitting the possibility that some might not, because the one thing God cannot force us to do is to love Him, and indeed the voluntary nature of love is a major argument against monergism in both the Calvinist and Universalist forms. However, if monergism is correct, then I would hope for the latter. The Orthodox liturgies begin with the Litany of Peace, which contains a petition for the Salvation of All.

@ViaCrucis , @prodromos,, and @chevyontheriver have further debunked the idea that major elements of Christianity are pagan so many times, coming from Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic perspectives, and consequently I would wish that this kind of argument would cease to be made, especially when it is directly counterproductive to the laudable nature of your other posts on this forum. For example, if you immersed yourself in the early history of Apokatastasis, for example, by studying St. Gregory of Nyssa, you would find an ally among some Eastern Orthodox, such as the eminent Dr. David Bentley Hart. And you would also discover a radically different interpretation of Hell among many Orthodox who do believe in it.

*In Rome, but not Constantinople, where things would remain normal for many centuries, in the Eastern Roman or Byzantine Empire, which ultimately fell to the Turks as a result of Venice using the pretense of a crusade to conquer it in 1204; it regained its independence but was permanently damaged, and the Byzantines refused the offer of Western Europe to defend them against the Turks if they gave up Eastern Orthodoxy and accepted Papal Supremacy, at the Council of Florence (where the majority of Orthodox bishops voted for integration into the Roman church, but one bishop, St. Mark of Ephesus, warned the people of the deal that was being contemplated, and knowing that Turkocratia would be a likely consequence, the people rejected the decisions of the Council, which is a key aspect of Orthodox faith, that is that a council becomes ecumenical only if it is accepted by the entire Orthodox Christian society, including the individual churches and their hierarchs, clerics, monastics and laity alike, so the arbitrary decisions that have come to characterize Roman Catholicism beginning in the eleventh century with the adoption of Papal Supremacy as a doctrine, are impossible in the Orthodox Church.

**Outside of Ethiopia, which was obscure) descended from the Pharisees, owing to Hellenic Jews, Sadducees and Essenes disappearing, due to mass conversions of the Jews to Christianity (the Antiochian Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Assyrian, Chaldean and Indian Orthodox, also known as St. Thomas Christians, as St. Thomas was martyred by a furious Hindu pagan raja in 53 AD in the city of Kerala, which between the reign of Alexander the Great until the establishment of the State of Israel in the 20th century was home to the Kochin Jews, the most famous recent member of which was Vidal Sassoon, a scion of the prominent Sassoon family. Many Kochin Jews converted to Christianity and some are endogamous.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,180
5,708
49
The Wild West
✟475,582.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
So, you are more concerned with the debatable idea that Roman paganism had some influence on Christianity than with cutting the Chrislamists a little slack?

Franlkly, I am not concerned with either, since Chrislam is a tiny fringe heretical sect, and the idea that Roman paganism influenced Christianity has been thoroughly debunked.

What I am concerned about however is pious Christians believing in certain falsehoods about the Early Church and thus excluding themselves from the celebration of the Nativity and Resurrection of our Lord, which should be a time of great joy for all Christians.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
... Your remark on Hell is also, forgive me, without merit, because one could use the same logic to argue that Heaven is of Pagan origins, since after all, the Chinese Folk Religion, Nordic Paganism with Valhalla, Egyptian paganism with the Afterlife, and many others feature it. Buddhism features multiple Heavens and Hells.

The similarity of other religions to the ancient Hebrew religion, Second Temple Judaism, and Christianity makes sense when we consider that the devil works by distorting the truth, and also makes sense in light of the doctrine of General Revelation, that being that God imparts an idea of Himself and the truth to all humans. This is a concept you should actively embrace.

Really, the only viable arguments in favor of Universalism come from those you seem to believe are Pagan, such as Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and the Asyrian Church of the East in the late first millennium, for example, St. Isaac the Syrian and the Bishop of Basra, which has celebrated Christmas and Pascha as long as any other church.

I have to confess, I am a bit disappointed with this argument, because it does not advance your views on Universalism, and also, if you recall, I historically have made a point of telling you I respect your personal piety and decency. ...
My aim was to see if you might be more supportive of Chrislam. But the discussion went off in the pagan direction. Personally, I have little concern over what may be pagan similarities in Christianity. God loves them too.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Franlkly, I am not concerned with either, since Chrislam is a tiny fringe heretical sect...
Wow. How tight is the box around your orthodoxy?

It's easy to identify a cult.
They meet in the building across the street from your church.
And they feel the same way about you.

What is accomplished with the "Us vs Them" mentality?
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
... the idea that Roman paganism influenced Christianity has been thoroughly debunked.
Has western Christianity been influenced by American culture?
If so, why wouldn't the same be true of the early Roman Church?
 
  • Like
Reactions: timothyu
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,180
5,708
49
The Wild West
✟475,582.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Wow. How tight is the box around your orthodoxy?

I would say that from my perspective, the pale of Orthodoxy is extremely wide, considering I recognize Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, Roman Catholics, confessional Lutherans including conservatives still in the ECLA, and regarding other prominent Protestant denominations, all clergy and laity who are not individually advocating for abortion, euthanasia or homosexual marriage, as sufficiently Orthodox.

I should send you my YouTube playlist where every Sunday I add services from about 30-40 churches of different denominations, most of which I like, only one or two of which are there so I can keep an eye on them (usually Old South Church in Boston, not to be confused with Old North Church, which I adore, I also kind of like King’s Chapel, which is UUA but uses a modified version of the Book of Common Prayer and is still theoretically Christian).

I am also a personal friend of Bishop Stephen Hoeller of the Ecclesia Gnostica, although we don’t agree on everything, but I find his work in integrating various New Testament apocrypha together with the canonical New Testament in a lectionary that uses the Tridentine calendar as its point of reference. That said, I would advise against joining his church, due to their dangerous fascination with some occult practices like Tarot Cards and the work of Carl Jung.

Obviously, there are heretical movements, such as the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Science, and so on. However, I hope and pray for their salvation. I love the Mormon people and pray Christ will have mercy on them aside from the wicked founder of their religion and the evil leadership of the polygamist FLDS church.

Chrislam falls into the heretical category just like King’s Chapel and the Ecclesia Gnostica, because it is effectively adulterating Christian teachings with falsehoods. If my friend Bishop Hoeller would do a few things differently, and if King’s Chapel was not a member of the UUA but rather an independent non-creedal church like the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ where Trinitarianism is welcomed if not required, and the political activities of the UUA not supported, I would not be compelled to regard them as heterodox.

For me to accept Chrislam, they would have to fully reject all the teachings of Muhammed and retain only the benign cultural aspects of Islam, but that would actually look like the Coptic or Maronite or Chaldean or Antiochian or Syriac Orthodox churches - for example, Islamic chant is stolen from Syriac Christian (Orthodox, Assyrian, Chaldean, Maronite), Coptic and Jewish traditions. This is because since its inception, Islam has killed more Christians than even the Communists, and also depopulated Christians from large parts of the world.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,180
5,708
49
The Wild West
✟475,582.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
It's easy to identify a cult.
They meet in the building across the street from your church.
And they feel the same way about you.

What is accomplished with the "Us vs Them" mentality?

My two mission parishes meet in facilities graciously donated by other churches, so I would have to say, nothing. I am, as I have repeatedly told you, a proponent of ecumenical reconciliation.

Has western Christianity been influenced by American culture?
If so, why wouldn't the same be true of the early Roman Church?

This takes us into the complex field of inculturation, but that wasn’t your assertion, rather, you were claiming Easter, Christmas and Hell were of Roman Pagan origins, which is simply untrue and has been thoroughly debunked, and that is what made me sad, because usually I agree with and support or like what you have to say, and I continue to regard you as a friend.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
For me to accept Chrislam, they would have to fully reject all the teachings of Muhammed and retain only the benign cultural aspects of Islam, but that would actually look like the Coptic or Maronite or Chaldean or Antiochian or Syriac Orthodox churches - for example, Islamic chant is stolen from Syriac Christian (Orthodox, Assyrian, Chaldean, Maronite), Coptic and Jewish traditions. This is because since its inception, Islam has killed more Christians than even the Communists, and also depopulated Christians from large parts of the world.
Thanks for the clarification. I feared initially that your comment was a thoughtless dismissal. Which would be uncharacteristic of your usual MO.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This takes us into the complex field of inculturation, but that wasn’t your assertion, rather, you were claiming Easter, Christmas and Hell were of Roman Pagan origins, which is simply untrue and has been thoroughly debunked, and that is what made me sad, because usually I agree with and support or like what you have to say, and I continue to regard you as a friend.
Thanks, I didn't mean it as a personal attack.
And in fact, I don't side with those who claim pagan influence on Christian holidays to the point of refusal to celebrate, or acknowledge them. I did however, think that it was still a debatable subject.

My point being that if Chrislam is leading Muslims into a right relationship with God, maybe we should cut them some slack, especially since the larger Christian body has its own own baggage. I have no solid testimonial knowledge that this is happening. But what would be the point of such a thing otherwise? A quirky attempt at polytheism? - LOL
 
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

May God be with you and bless you.
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
19,167
9,958
.
✟607,074.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I think Jesus came to give us salvation in this world, while we're living in the flesh, as much as salvation in the afterlife. I think a lot of what Jesus said, that people think pertains to the afterlife, pertains to the life you're living right now, either in part or in whole.

Jesus said he came that we might have life, and have it more abundantly. The good life. A rich life. Rich in abundance 30, 60, 100 fold.

And the way to obtain that rich and abundant life, is to follow his teachings and obey his commands.

Please take note that I don't mean rich in money and abundance in material things.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ceallaigh

May God be with you and bless you.
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
19,167
9,958
.
✟607,074.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The idea that Easter came from a Pagan fertility rite is a conspiracy theory based on the name of the feast in certain Western European countries like England during the Anglo-Saxon period, which were at the time backwaters which had been out of contact with the rest of Christendom, and whose churches barely survived, during the Dark Ages that followed the collapse of the government in Rome.*

However, the majority of Christian countries refer to Easter as Pascha, meaning Passover in Greek, or some variant on it, for example, the Dutch call it Passen. This is because Pascha is the Christian continuation of Passover, as is indicated by our Lord modifying the Passover seder into a sacrifice of Himself. For that matter, the Eastern Orthodox and some Oriental Orthodox strongly prefer to call it Pascha when speaking in English, as this also helps denote the fact that it is celebrated according to the Paschalion adopted at the Council of Nicaea, which, according to the Julian Calendar, is the first Sunday after the Vernal Equinox, approximating the 14th of Nissan in 33 AD, and this was necessary because in the second century the Rabbis, the sole surviving mainstream Jewish authorities** had changed the Jewish calendar; later the Karaite Jews, which emerged around the 6th or 7th century as an anti-Rabinnical, Sola Scriptura protest movement, attempted to recreate the old calendar based on observations of the barley crop in the Holy Land, but it is unclear if their calendar was a success.

Christmas likewise was not dated to compete with Sol Invictus or the Saturnalia, although this was a happy accident. Rather, historically, the Feast of the Annunciation on March 25th and the Feast of The Epiphany on January 6th, commemorating the Baptism of our Lord, were more important, and our Lord’s nativity was celebrated at the same time as his baptism, and in fact still is in the Armenian Apostolic Churches (one of the four surviving Oriental Orthodox ethno/linguistic groups, along with the Syriacs, Copts and Abyssinians; there was also an Oriental Orthodox church among the Numidians, located in the Sudan, but this was destroyed by Islamic persecution. When you add nine months to the Annunciation, you get December 25th. Oh, as a fun fact, while in many Christian churches the Ecclesiastical year begins around September 1st, or the first Sunday of Advent, in the past it commonly began on March the 25th in parts of Western Europe, and just as the Byzantine civil calendar began on September 1st, in those countries, it began on March 25th.

That Christmas drew Romans living in Rome away from a specifically Roman festival is a happy accident, because contrary to popular belief, Rome was actually somewhat isolated in the Early Church by its use of Latin rather than Greek; it was extremely conservative for most of the first few centuries of its existence, especially between the third century and the Council of Chalcedon, which marked the first time the Bishop of Rome played a major role in an ecumenical council, and Roman representation at the Ecumenical councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and Ephesus was dramatically less, with Greek bishops dominating all seven of the historic Ecumemical Councils, numerically speaking, and Rome usually sending legates as opposed to bishops.

We find another such happy accident with the Feast of the Presentation of our Lord, on February 2nd, known in the West as Candlemas. This coincided with the Roman fertility festival of Lupercalia, but could not have been any more different, for in Lupercalia, wealthy Roman young men would run naked through the streets, whereas Candlemas has always been a solemn, beautiful and reverent affair.

Your remark on Hell is also, forgive me, without merit, because one could use the same logic to argue that Heaven is of Pagan origins, since after all, the Chinese Folk Religion, Nordic Paganism with Valhalla, Egyptian paganism with the Afterlife, and many others feature it. Buddhism features multiple Heavens and Hells.

The similarity of other religions to the ancient Hebrew religion, Second Temple Judaism, and Christianity makes sense when we consider that the devil works by distorting the truth, and also makes sense in light of the doctrine of General Revelation, that being that God imparts an idea of Himself and the truth to all humans. This is a concept you should actively embrace.

Really, the only viable arguments in favor of Universalism come from those you seem to believe are Pagan, such as Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and the Asyrian Church of the East in the late first millennium, for example, St. Isaac the Syrian and the Bishop of Basra, which has celebrated Christmas and Pascha as long as any other church.

I have to confess, I am a bit disappointed with this argument, because it does not advance your views on Universalism, and also, if you recall, I historically have made a point of telling you I respect your personal piety and decency. I myself, like Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, hope all may be saved, while admitting the possibility that some might not, because the one thing God cannot force us to do is to love Him, and indeed the voluntary nature of love is a major argument against monergism in both the Calvinist and Universalist forms. However, if monergism is correct, then I would hope for the latter. The Orthodox liturgies begin with the Litany of Peace, which contains a petition for the Salvation of All.

@ViaCrucis , @prodromos,, and @chevyontheriver have further debunked the idea that major elements of Christianity are pagan so many times, coming from Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic perspectives, and consequently I would wish that this kind of argument would cease to be made, especially when it is directly counterproductive to the laudable nature of your other posts on this forum. For example, if you immersed yourself in the early history of Apokatastasis, for example, by studying St. Gregory of Nyssa, you would find an ally among some Eastern Orthodox, such as the eminent Dr. David Bentley Hart. And you would also discover a radically different interpretation of Hell among many Orthodox who do believe in it.

*In Rome, but not Constantinople, where things would remain normal for many centuries, in the Eastern Roman or Byzantine Empire, which ultimately fell to the Turks as a result of Venice using the pretense of a crusade to conquer it in 1204; it regained its independence but was permanently damaged, and the Byzantines refused the offer of Western Europe to defend them against the Turks if they gave up Eastern Orthodoxy and accepted Papal Supremacy, at the Council of Florence (where the majority of Orthodox bishops voted for integration into the Roman church, but one bishop, St. Mark of Ephesus, warned the people of the deal that was being contemplated, and knowing that Turkocratia would be a likely consequence, the people rejected the decisions of the Council, which is a key aspect of Orthodox faith, that is that a council becomes ecumenical only if it is accepted by the entire Orthodox Christian society, including the individual churches and their hierarchs, clerics, monastics and laity alike, so the arbitrary decisions that have come to characterize Roman Catholicism beginning in the eleventh century with the adoption of Papal Supremacy as a doctrine, are impossible in the Orthodox Church.

**Outside of Ethiopia, which was obscure) descended from the Pharisees, owing to Hellenic Jews, Sadducees and Essenes disappearing, due to mass conversions of the Jews to Christianity (the Antiochian Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Assyrian, Chaldean and Indian Orthodox, also known as St. Thomas Christians, as St. Thomas was martyred by a furious Hindu pagan raja in 53 AD in the city of Kerala, which between the reign of Alexander the Great until the establishment of the State of Israel in the 20th century was home to the Kochin Jews, the most famous recent member of which was Vidal Sassoon, a scion of the prominent Sassoon family. Many Kochin Jews converted to Christianity and some are endogamous.
My interest in Eastern Orthodoxy came from Saint Steven introducing me to their view of salvation. Which my avatar reflects. It was through a video done by Dr. Brad Jersak who's an Eastern Orthodox theologian, pretty much in the same camp as DBH.

From what I read on a universalist website called Tentmaker, the assertion is views on hell were shaped by Augustine, which was influenced by his former paganism. I remember a video where Brad Jersak and Archbishop Lazar Puhalo, are talking about Augustine along those lines. But I haven't yet done any deep research into it.

As for the influence of paganism in Christian traditions, that's plainly seen in rabbits and eggs during Easter (along with the name itself which you covered) and the whole thing with decorating trees and the Yuletide during Christmas etc. How much of that is from the Chuch, and how much is a part of secularism, I'm not sure of.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
My interest in Eastern Orthodoxy came from Saint Steven introducing me to their view of salvation. Which my avatar reflects. It was through a video done by Dr. Brad Jersak who's an Eastern Orthodox theologian.
From what I read on a universalist website called Tentmaker, the assertion is views on hell were shaped by Augustine, which was influenced by his former paganism. I remember a video where Brad Jersak and Archbishop Lazar Puhalo, are talking about Augustine along those lines. But I haven't yet done any deep research into it.

As for the influence of paganism in Christian traditions, that's plainly seen in rabbits and eggs during Easter (along with the name itself which you covered) and the whole thing with decorating trees and the Yuletide during Christmas etc. How much of that is from the Chuch, and how much is a part of secularism, I'm not sure of.
You mention rabbits and eggs, decorating trees etc. What the secular world does at any Christian Holy day has no bearing on the faith and practice of Christians. Have you ever seen "Christmas trees", Santa, easter eggs etc. as part of any Christian worship service? I haven't and I have been a Christian since LBJ was president.
Wait a minute. You left out Dante and his 14th century book "Inferno." Might I remind you of my post where I provide evidence from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, the 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud that in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment which they called both sheol and Gehinnom, written in the 225BC LXX and the NT as Gehenna and hades. Here is a link to that post for you to ignore again.
Link: Rethinking Hell-Redux
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,180
5,708
49
The Wild West
✟475,582.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Thanks for the clarification. I feared initially that your comment was a thoughtless dismissal. Which would be uncharacteristic of your usual MO.
Indeed, I am not about thoughtless dismissals but the compassionate and loving spread of the Christian Gospel.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
4,405
1,617
43
San jacinto
✟128,742.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As for the influence of paganism in Christian traditions, that's plainly seen in rabbits and eggs during Easter (along with the name itself which you covered) and the whole thing with decorating trees and the Yuletide during Christmas etc. How much of that is from the Chuch, and how much is a part of secularism, I'm not sure of.
While it is a popular myth that a lot of the trappings of holiday celebrations are pagan in origin, there's little by way of historical evidence to suggest such a thing. For instance, there is only a single mention of the supposed goddess Eostre by an 8th century monk being the culprit for the name Easter, but a much more substantial historical record of the name coming from Auf-erste-hung which is the German word for resurrection. The exact origins of rabbits and colored eggs isn't clear, but they seem to have developed in the 17th and 18th century making it unlikely that pagan celebrations have anything to do with them. The Christmas tree is a tradition that came to be during the Reformation and also has no connection to pagan traditions. The only traditions that do seem to have a clear predecessor from pagan celebrations are the yule log and yule pig, but having a fire in the winter and eating ham hardly preserve any kind of pagan culture. Other claims, such as Saturnalia and Sol Invictus also lack merit since both of those were originally summer solstice festivals since December was a summer month prior to the calendar being rearranged with the addition of July and August. Their revivals coinciding with Christmas were more a part of attempts to reclaim paganism rather than a Christianization of pagan festivals.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0