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The Gospel of Tolerance

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by Dorothea, Sep 21, 2011.

  1. truthseeker32

    truthseeker32 Lost in the Cosmos

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    Oh man. It is hard to maintain a balance of disapproval and love. I know a lot of Christians who are against gay marriage and things like that who still act kindly towards individuals regardless of their opinions/ lifestyles, but I have also seen some take it too far, to the point where there is no love with their disapproval. Herein lies the danger I suppose.
     
  2. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

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    Yes, there are two dangers: becoming too lax and forgetting that sin is sin and just going along with it to not offend anyone, and the other danger: having lack of love in your heart for your neighbor/brethren/enemy and are stuck on what's right and wrong with no compassion or love.
     
  3. MariaRegina

    MariaRegina Well-Known Member

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    And that is the problem.

    I agree with Dorothea.

    Most people fixate on the hypocrisy of Westboro Church and then become so smug in their political correctness that they pat themselves on their tolerant back and do not see their own hypocrisy.

    Hey. Wake up. We are all sinners in need of repentance.

    Lord have mercy.
     
  4. FlamingZword

    FlamingZword Newbie

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    If a person was going to fall into a hole would you not warn those persons, would you not holler and scream if necessary.

    Homosexuals and other sinners are about to fall into a big huge ditch called hell. should we not warn them?

    I know they call our warnings; homophobia, hatred and other such things, without realizing that if we did not care about them, we would simply stay quiet.

    God does not want any sinner to perish but that all come to everlasting life.

    I preach the gospel because I do not want people to die and be lost without Christ, if I did not care about people I would simplhy stay in a corner and would not say a peep.

    Yet if I know the truth and I do not speak th truth their blood will be in my hands.
    I have to preach the truth even if sometimes truth is not welcomed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2011
  5. truthseeker32

    truthseeker32 Lost in the Cosmos

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    I understand the concern Christians have for the salvation of Homosexuals. It is not here that my problem lies. My problem lies in two parts.

    1. There is a specific way to reach out to those who are homosexual. It is important to let them know that God loves them just as much as any sinner, and it is not their orientation that is sinful, but acting on such inclinations that is sinful. This is much more effective than yelling "God hates gays" at people.

    2. My second problem stems from what I have observed among different religious individuals. They seem to concentrate solely on certain sins. They speak out against abortion and homosexuality as if they are the only sins a person can commit. Other sins (capital punishment, neglecting those in need, hatred, racism, theft, etc.) never get mentioned anymore. If I was to judge the severity of sins based just off what I hear preached from religious individuals the list would be as follows:

    1. Homosexuality
    2. Abortion

    and then everything else a distant 3rd place on because the only things I ever hear about anymore are The two aforementioned.

    This is why I have such a respect for the Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Eastern Orthodox churches I have attended. They see sin as sin. It doesn't matter if it is homosexual fornication or heterosexual fornication. Both are sins.
     
  6. MariaRegina

    MariaRegina Well-Known Member

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    Sin is missing the mark.

    So, we fail 70 times a day, or even more, because we fail to put God first in our lives.

    This is why we are not to judge.

    However, one sin that is ignored today is that of indifference. If I am indifferent to sin and evil, then I sin. If I fail to pray, clean up my room, or do charitable works due to my indifference, I sin.

    Today, it is politically correct to be indifferent: to take the attitude of live and let live.

    So, yes, like Dorothea and Metropolitan Methodios said, we need to be careful about the sin of tolerance as it is just as much a sin as intolerance.

     
  7. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

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    Yes, indeed. Indifference is akin to lukewarmness, imo.
     
  8. TheCunctator

    TheCunctator Dio, abbi pietà su questa anima miserabile!

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    The Westboro church is always used to make a caricature of what the Christian Church as a whole proclaims on certain subjects.

    But of course, God forbid if we make assertions that Islam is a violent and aggressive religion based on terrorist acts. :doh:

    It's funny they'll consider the Westboro church but then neglect to mention the billions in charity that Christians as a whole donate to causes that "the tolerant" enthusiastically embrace - like fighting AIDS. I wonder, since the Church is apparently attempting to smite homosexuals, if they're being counterproductive by giving to finding a prevention and cure to the biggest scourge gays have ever had.
     
  9. truthseeker32

    truthseeker32 Lost in the Cosmos

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    It was very unoriginal for me to use Westboro as an example. I could have just as easliy used the local New Life Bible Church, or Alpine church.

    Maybe it is just because I live in the most conservative state in the country, but I hear people talking about how violent the religion of Islam is all the time.

    I guess we are all a product of our environment in some way.
     
  10. TheCunctator

    TheCunctator Dio, abbi pietà su questa anima miserabile!

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    I guess so, but my basic point is that by and large, the Christian Church does not call for the burning of heretics, so-to-speak. By and large, those who accept the Christian teaching on certain issues and want to join the Christian Church are warmly embraced as brothers, and those who decline to do so, but remain respectful, are treated respectfully. I don't think people give Christians enough credit. I remember when a young man in our youth group, a close friend of mine, confessed to the youth leaders that he was suffering from homosexual thoughts, he wept endlessly, and the youth leaders simply embraced him and comforted him.

    On the flip side, it is dangerous to question gay marriage or abortion or racial issues on my university campus, lest the Diversity Office (yes, it exists) file something against you. The state hasn't been "secularized," it's been used to promote a new religion - that of anti-Christianity.
     
  11. Protoevangel

    Protoevangel Smash the Patriarchy!

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    The latest posts by truthseeker32 & TheCunctator seem to illustrate the dangers of pre-judging any group based on their name, whether that group be homosexuals or Protestant Christians.
     
  12. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    I would add that the issue of homosexuality; aka the sin of Sodom, is in a peculiar relation to other sins that does call for a degree of special attention. It is the fact that we live in a society where this particular sin is on the verge of receiving general public approval. This has already happened with some sins, notably fornication. It's too late to take a civil stance against open expression of fornication. The society allows and encourages it. But there is still a great deal of social opposition to sodomic sex- only most of the silent majority do not know how to formulate their opposition, so have little to say in response to pictures of smiling same-sex couples and assertions that it doesn't hurt anyone and that they are being denied "rights".

    So education on how and why we should abhor this particular sin is not judgement, and as members of civil society, that ostensibly have democratic power (and really are being allowed by our wealthy plutocracy to speak out and vote on this issue), we ought to do what we can, to show, commandments of God aside (which will not be received by a people that does not accept Him), that this is wrong and why, that it is not merely because "my religion says so" or "I've got a funny feeling in my toes..."

    Agreed that this needs to be done in love; a difficult task at times. But it needs to be done, and not doing it is decidedly not love.
     
  13. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

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    The bolded: I can't tell you how many times I've heard that with regards to the subject you're talking about, along with other sins that we see or seem to think don't affect others so therefore don't hurt anyone. All sins effect all the world. In addition, one can be hurting his/her own soul, which is really the case for our sins.

    I have a genuine concern about what's been happening to this society and the societies/cultures all over the world. I will continue praying for all.
     
  14. truthseeker32

    truthseeker32 Lost in the Cosmos

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    You know what else really hurts people? Letting them starve, be beaten, tortured, murdered, forced out of their homes, etc. Why don't we ever talk about that?
     
  15. Kreikkalainen

    Kreikkalainen You can't spell or pronounce me

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    We do.
     
  16. Ignatius21

    Ignatius21 Can somebody please pass the incense?

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    In her article she referred to:

    Emphasis mine...which is "the new mandate" that she's referring to? New as of when? Mandated where, federally or in some states or cities? Is this a vague reference to something like the "Heather Has Two Mommies" experiments in places like NYC a decade ago, or has some actual mandate been given to public schools to teach a specific Kindergarten curriculum containing acceptance and celebration of everything she's listed here? Is that curriculum available anywhere, and can it be verified that it's required of particular (or all) school districts?

    Is it tied into the law that CA just passed requiring "Gay History" to be taught in schools?

    I just want to be sure this is verifiable...sometimes people with good intentions can go a bit into hyperbole when describing something they don't agree with (like "the new healthcare reform will send government-funded death squads to kill your grandmother" stuff).
     
  17. Ignatius21

    Ignatius21 Can somebody please pass the incense?

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    I think you raise some very good points. I have known plenty of church-going, conservative people who are staunchly pro-marriage...even while they're living together with their not-yet-fiancee...who will rail loudly against homosexual "civil unions" but essentially are living in exactly the same style relationships.

    Homosexual marriage advocates can of course point out that those groups who most loudly declare and defend "traditional marriage" have divorce rates equal to those who are not religious.

    Your final point is exactly right...sin is sin, and fornication is fornication, and if we stand against one we must stand against the other. Sometimes I think the "big sins" may be easier for us to point our fingers at, because whatever else we do wickedly...well, we aren't doing that. There can definitely be a streak of pride in that.

    As to your statement that "the orientation isn't sinful, only acting on it," I'm not sure whether to agree or not. It's something like saying "Looking at a woman isn't a sin, only acting on it is..." only Jesus said we've already committed adultery in our hearts. Looking with desire on someone of the opposite sex is righteous when it happens within the bounds set by God (and because we are sinful, it never does). I would say that ogling a woman who isn't your wife is sinful because it is a deviation (a "missing of the mark") from how our desires should function. Likewise a man ogling another man misses the mark (OK...I will admit it misses it even more, because there is NO possible righteous end to that passion) and is therefore sinful, even if it hasn't led to an action.

    On the other hand, I would not say that being heterosexual (in orientation) is something inherently virtuous, and in a similar way, being homosexual (in orientation) is perhaps not inherently a vice...??? :confused: Really, I'm not sure what to think. The former is not a virtue, but it is at least aligned with what God (and nature!) have revealed.
     
  18. Glory Road 109

    Glory Road 109 Newbie

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    You can have a longing there you don't want to have. That isn't sin.
     
  19. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

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    I agree that sins are sins. I think the reason why certain sins are getting more focus is as Rus said, they or it - the sinful homosexual behavior - is growing in acceptance and encouragement in the society. We know the pre-marital sex is wrong, but has been long accepted in society, so it's therefore even harder to combat or argue about in the public realm. Trying to explain it's wrong, we are, again, branded as living in the past, unrealistic, or some such things. The battle is fresh these past few years to decade or so with regards to the acceptance of homosexuality. The concern is it'll become common place and normal along w/pre-marital sex and other such immoral sexual acts. Nobody is taught it is a sinful behavior. It's the same with masturbation.
     
  20. truthseeker32

    truthseeker32 Lost in the Cosmos

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    I find it interesting that some are claiming that the fight against homosexuality is the primary focus because it hasn't yet been solidified as "normal" in society. It makes it sound like the way to get religious conservatives off your back is to gain acceptance, even if you are wrong. Shouldn't Christians fight sin as sin regardless of its level of acceptance in society?

    Would those of you who are opposed to legally recognizing same sex marriage also support legislation to make homosexual relationships illegal?
     
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