"The Gospel of Marcion"

[ElijahW]

It is extremely hard to determine certainty with regards to Thomas. We just don't know who wrote it and when, but this is pretty standard fare for the earliest texts in Christendom. Within the small corpus of "Thomasine" literature your interpretation of "You are a God" would not seem to fit in, Jesus is clearly on a higher level. In Acts of Thomas Jesus is clearly identified as God and Thomas a human. In the revelatory discourse between Thomas and Jesus in the Book of Thomas you have Jesus identified as Thomas' Master and Savior but that is about it.

You may be correct about Jesus being on a higher level but as in Jesus is a purely spiritual entity. If that is the case then Thomas is the same figure as Jesus is in the catholic Gospels. He is the physical counterpart (twin) of a spiritual entity, the same as the logos in the flesh that Jesus is in the catholic texts.

If Jesus is a man and is understood as the Son of God, then the claim that Thomas is also the son of God like Jesus is no big deal because it just means he knows himself. "When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father."

 

[ElijahW]

Jesus said "you will know a tree by it's fruit". The actions are the "fruit". The belief system that generates the action is the "Tree". A listing of "bad fruit" indicates a "bad tree". In other words, and not naming any religion or faith, if it has produced a consistant history of actions resulting in bloodshed and oppression, a genuine person of reason would recognize that regardless of what they are saying, actions speak louder than words.

We aren't judging people are we though? At least we aren't supposed to be if we don't want to commit a fallacy. The point is moot though because it looks like you changed your mind on the understanding of who all is a thief and a robber.

You are on a thread about Marcion and you have no idea why Marcion was brought up? Here I am trying to show the influences on two faiths, and you can't even remember why we are on this thread?. If you are not here to learn about Marcionism'[s influence on Christianity, Why in the world are you on this thread? If you want to know what we Gnostics believe, I am glad to share, but I have no interest in catholicism other than from an academic standpoint. I am Glad to share, but would rather do it via PM, than tie up someone else's thread about Marcionism.

Pointing out that the thread is about Marcion still doesn't explain what you were saying about Marcion there.

No wonder you are so confused.


You apparently do not understand parrable. I think you should give up catholicism, which has failed to teach you the language that Jesus spoke, learn the language, and then go back to take it up again.

That is what a "person of reason" would do. Until you actually learn to understand poetic metaphor, you are just spinning your wheels.
-----
No offense intended, but really learn poetic language, and the meanings of what the old writers were telling you will no longer be obfuscated.

The point I was making wasn't that I was having difficulties with your figurative language but that you're using figurative language to conceal that you don't really understand this. You are just plagiarizing ancient writers words and passing them off as wisdom that you understand but on examination don't. I don't need to learn to understand metaphor, you need to show that you can explain yourself without it, to show that you rationally understand what you are saying and the ideology you support.

I will try to help you out.

"I am the owner of the sheep". Jesus was not telling us He really owned "Sheep".

Jesus was not on earth prior to His birth.

"Hired" Shepherds were placed on earth to watch the "flock" while He was away.

They all failed to do the job they were hired for.

The owner of the sheep has shown up to take charge of His very own flock.

He was not happy with the job that the "hired shepherds" had done, and referred to them as "thieves and robbers".

Who were the "All"? Those that had been entrusted with the care of the flock prior to the owner(Jesus) coming to claim it. Why was He not Happy? He stated, again in the Gospel of John, because they had left a trail of death, destruction and theft of property.

You seem to be making my point. Which is the judgement is for the shepherds/rulers that came before him, not the sheep/commoners who were oppressed.

 

[ElijahW]

You seem to be missing the point that I don't believe that the rock Jesus is referring to is Peter.

I'm not missing that point at all. The issue is that lack of belief doesn't mean much if you don't understand what you don't believe in.

 

[Soulgazer]

The point I was making wasn't that I was having difficulties with your figurative language but that you're using figurative language to conceal that you don't really understand this. You are just plagiarizing ancient writers words and passing them off as wisdom that you understand but on examination don't. I don't need to learn to understand metaphor, you need to show that you can explain yourself without it, to show that you rationally understand what you are saying and the ideology you support.

Nonsense, you already stated earlier that you could not understand figurative language. No need to lie about it. No one else seems to have any trouble understanding me, so for you to blame me is just an attempt to obfuscate your own poor understanding of the subject matter. I have attempted to clarify some of the points, but your poor education in the matter has acted as a major impediment to your understanding, so you lash out against others. You are forgiven, frustration with new material is very common.

Try this; Pick ONE point of the subject matter that you would like to learn.

 

[ElijahW]

Try this; Pick ONE point of the subject matter that you would like to learn.

The point that you think I failed to grasp, that you feel is the most important.

 

[Soulgazer]

The point that you think I failed to grasp, that you feel is the most important.

Huh? Let me reword this. What point of the influence of Marcionism on Gnostic and proto-orthodoxy are you not understanding? Pick one. If there are others, we can hit them later.

 

[ElijahW]

Huh? Let me reword this. What point of the influence of Marcionism on Gnostic and proto-orthodoxy are you not understanding? Pick one. If there are others, we can hit them later.

So there isn't anything you have discussed with me that you think I haven't grasped? No new ideas I'm having trouble with?

 

[Soulgazer]

So there isn't anything you have discussed with me that you think I haven't grasped? No new ideas I'm having trouble with?

Get away from me kid.

 

[ElijahW]

Get away from me kid.

lol

"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways."

Despite what I assume is your advanced age, it's hard to see me as the kid in this conversation because I'm the one using reason to come to their understanding, and you are the one who still believes in the superstitions of childhood.

Sorry I wasn't more of a help with your deception that you know what you are talking about.

Next time hopefully we meet in a more brotherly conversation.

 

[Phantasman]

Spoken like the true Orthodox.