The golden calf - worshipped as if too God or as if it was a god?

[Iollain]

Well i'm going to have to stick up for Aaron and the Written Word and say that both accounts are correct. If Aaron would have lied the Bible would say he lied. I believe it is as said and he thought it looked like a calf when it came out of the fire so he did what he could to put eyes and whatever on to fashion a calf.

Under the guidance of Aaron they worshipped the God who brought them out of Egypt with a golden calf. They tried to replace Moses at first with a golden image that couldn't do anything because it is not alive, they would have did better if they followed a live mouse or sumthin. In the end they did the ultimate no-no and worshipped the Living God through an image.

 

[Caliban]

Well i'm going to have to stick up for Aaron and the Written Word and say that both accounts are correct. If Aaron would have lied the Bible would say he lied. I believe it is as said and he thought it looked like a calf when it came out of the fire so he did what he could to put eyes and whatever on to fashion a calf.

Under the guidance of Aaron they worshipped the God who brought them out of Egypt with a golden calf. They tried to replace Moses at first with a golden image that couldn't do anything because it is not alive, they would have did better if they followed a live mouse or sumthin. In the end they did the ultimate no-no and worshipped the Living God through an image.

spot on

 

[Oblio]

In the end they did the ultimate no-no and worshipped the Living God through an image.

Yet Scripture does not say this. You are impressing your iconoclasm onto Scripture, in a word, eisegesis.

 

[Caliban]

Yet Scripture does not say this. You are impressing your iconoclasm onto Scripture, in a word, eisegesis.

Original Hebrew translation

and-he-is-taking from-hand-of-them and-he-is-forming him in-stylus and-he-is-making-him calf-of molten and-they-are-saying these Elohim-of-you Israel who they-brought-up-you from-land-of Egypt

and-he-is-seeing Aaron and-he-is-building alter before-him and-he-is-calling Aaron and-he-is-saying celebration to-Yahweh tomorrow

seems clear that in text it says Elohim (name of God) created in the image of the calf and an alter to Yahweh (name of God) created at the calf for celebration (worship)

 

[QuantaCura]

Original Hebrew translation

and-he-is-taking from-hand-of-them and-he-is-forming him in-stylus and-he-is-making-him calf-of molten and-they-are-saying these Elohim-of-you Israel who they-brought-up-you from-land-of Egypt

and-he-is-seeing Aaron and-he-is-building alter before-him and-he-is-calling Aaron and-he-is-saying celebration to-Yahweh tomorrow

Right, they are saying the calf itself is God, not that it represents Him.

 

[KEPLER]

I have stated the original text in hebrew where it states that it was in fact for yahweh (see my previous post on this on the first page)

YHWH is only mentiionded vis a vis the feast day. Aaron was being a syncretist.

 

[Caliban]

Right, they are saying the calf itself is God, not that it represents Him.

yep

So more or less what it says is that Aaron got the components and forged them to make the style of a calf and saying its God(Elohim). He then makes an alter in front of the calf(God) for celebration the next day.

Which is very norty

 

[Caliban]

YHWH is only mentiionded vis a vis the feast day. Aaron was being a syncretist.

Yahweh is Elohim

 

[KEPLER]

Yahweh is Elohim

Hey Caliban,

Well, 'elohim' isn't always YHWH. Consider this passage:

They set out from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month. On the day after the Passover, the people of Israel went out triumphantly in the sight of all the Egyptians, while the Egyptians were burying all their firstborn, whom the LORD had struck down among them. On their gods also the LORD executed judgments.

YHWH executes judgements on 'elohim'.

Cheers,

Kepler

 

[Caliban]

Hey Caliban,

Well, 'elohim' isn't always YHWH. Consider this passage:

YHWH executes judgements on 'elohim'.

Cheers,

Kepler

so out of 2632 instances of elohim which refer to God/The Lord you say that Numbers 33:3-4 does not...ok I agree

but this is the only reference to elohim within the hebrew context of

Meielabu which means in-elohim-of-them and is the only occurance where it is found in numbers and not in any other verse.

Where as in regards to exodus 32 it is

eKiela which means elohim-of-you which appears in 463 verses in the OT and always refers to the israelites and is stated in translation as the Lord thy God.

 

[KEPLER]

so out of 2632 instances of elohim which refer to God/The Lord you say that Numbers 33:3-4 does not...ok I agree

but this is the only reference to elohim within the hebrew context of

Meielabu which means in-elohim-of-them and is the only occurance where it is found in numbers and not in any other verse.

Where as in regards to exodus 32 it is

eKiela which means elohim-of-you which appears in 463 verses in the OT and always refers to the israelites and is stated in translation as the Lord thy God.

Just like in any other language, changing the referent does not change the subject..IOW, whether or not it is:

manum mea (my hand)
or
manum tua (your hand)

​

manum is still manum...hand is hand...is is is (hat tip to Bill Clinton)...and gods is gods.

Aside from this issue, we still have to deal with verse 1, which sets all of this up: they think Moses has either abandoned them or is dead. Either way, the god Moses was following ended up being useless. The only way the rest of the passage makes sense is if they are turning AWAY from YHWH and back to their old gods in Egypt.

Cheers,

Kepler

 

[HolyGuardianAngels]

First and formost, please do not get into icons and the like in this thread; I am not asking this because of icons or anything like that.

Okay, now that that is outa the way...

In Exodus 32, the Isrealites have a golden calf made and it is stated to the Isrealites that it is "your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt" (vs. 4). Later on, Aaron "built an altar in front of the calf and announced, 'Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD.' " (vs. 5).

Now my understanding of this passage has been that the sin of the people was that they worshipped the golden calf in place of God. However, a buddy of mine has suggested that the issue is not the Isrealites worshipping the calf in place of God, but worshipping God through the calf, a practice not expressly allowed by God (essentially, the Isrealites were in violation of the regulative principle of Worship).

If anyone has any insight to this passage, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Hello, my brother . . .

Ahhh, The Golden Calf . . .

Do you really BELIEVE that, AS SLAVES, the Hebrew people understood, just what they were doing/carving?? Do you really BELIEVE that, AS SLAVES, the Hebrew people were "let-in-on" the TRUE MEANING/MYSTERIES of Ancient Egypt?? ~I think not!!


Of course not, the Hebrews just did as they were told and nothing of the truth/mystery was ever really explained to them!!





[bible]Exodus 19:5[/bible]









[bible]Exodus 20:21[/bible]












Ye shall NOT make with ME gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold. An ALTER of EARTH thou shalt make unto ME, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record MY name, I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee. And IF thou wilt make ME an alter of STONE, thou shalt not build it of HEWN stone; for if thou lift up thy ~TOOL~ upon it, thou hast POLLUTED it.

Exodus 20:23-26

 

[Catherineanne]

As has already been said, the Calf was the symbol for the God of the Israelites at the time of Moses. If anyone wants proof of this, then you only need to do a brief search, and you will get lots of references to it.

I think if this passage illustrates anything, it is the fact that the faith of the Israelites developed over time, and also that editors revised ancient scriptures long after they were written, for their own ends.

This is why if you look you will find Abraham worshipping trees, and lots of oblique references to ritual infanticide by various kings, stamped out by later kings, and then reinstated. Mostly edited away, but not totally.

You don't have to believe this. You can choose to believe the OT was dictated word for word and perfect. But the evidence is in favour of a series of revisions, and that originally the Golden Calf was worshipped by Israelites as El/YHWH, or whatever other name they used at the time.

 

[Caliban]

Hello, my brother . . .

Ahhh, The Golden Calf . . .

Do you really BELIEVE that, AS SLAVES, the Hebrew people understood, just what they were doing/carving?? Do you really BELIEVE that, AS SLAVES, the Hebrew people were "let-in-on" the TRUE MEANING/MYSTERIES of Ancient Egypt?? ~I think not!!


Of course not, the Hebrews just did as they were told and nothing of the truth/mystery was ever really explained to them!!





[bible]Exodus 19:5[/bible]









[bible]Exodus 20:21[/bible]












Ye shall NOT make with ME gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold. An ALTER of EARTH thou shalt make unto ME, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record MY name, I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee. And IF thou wilt make ME an alter of STONE, thou shalt not build it of HEWN stone; for if thou lift up thy ~TOOL~ upon it, thou hast POLLUTED it.

Exodus 20:23-26

When I think about it where on earth did they get all this gold (earrings and bracelets) and precious jewels in the first place when they were slaves? Did they pick them up somewhere in the wilderness, were they gold and precious jewel miners (as they were slaves and may have had to do this for pharoah) and they would need a lot to make something like a calf, unless it was quite small (not like the image they have in the big movie epics of a huge statue). Just babbling now lol

 

[DanielRB]

When I think about it where on earth did they get all this gold (earrings and bracelets) and precious jewels in the first place when they were slaves? Did they pick them up somewhere in the wilderness, were they gold and precious jewel miners (as they were slaves and may have had to do this for pharoah) and they would need a lot to make something like a calf, unless it was quite small (not like the image they have in the big movie epics of a huge statue). Just babbling now lol

Shalom, Caliban,

"The people of Israel had also done as Moses told them, for they had asked the Egyptians for silver and gold jewelry and for clothing. And the Lord had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked. Thus they plundered the Egyptians." (Exodus 12:35-36, ESV)

This is how they got all of the stuff for the making of the Tabernacle, too.

In Messiah,

Daniel

 

[Caliban]

Shalom, Caliban,



This is how they got all of the stuff for the making of the Tabernacle, too.

In Messiah,

Daniel

LOL thanks a lot....

 

[KEPLER]

When I think about it where on earth did they get all this gold (earrings and bracelets) and precious jewels in the first place when they were slaves? Did they pick them up somewhere in the wilderness, were they gold and precious jewel miners (as they were slaves and may have had to do this for pharoah) and they would need a lot to make something like a calf, unless it was quite small (not like the image they have in the big movie epics of a huge statue). Just babbling now lol

Also, remember! When they left Egypt, there were more than just Israelites who left! (Ex 12:38)

 

[Caliban]

Also, remember! When they left Egypt, there were more than just Israelites who left! (Ex 12:38)

I didnt realise that...sometimes I miss stuff when readin the bible as it can be a lifetime study

So perhaps the idea of creating the calf could have also come from the others that came out of egypt with them as there is writings and archeological finds of ancient egypt which state the offering of sacrifice to Asherah and Baal, two of the deities worshipped along side with Yahweh in that time. Asherah was also known in egypt as Hathor (the cow goddess). Asherah was worshipped by placing an idol made of the tree as in Exodus 34:12-14 and was a popular with the ancient israelites. Below is an extract from a Lutheran Church Website:

Asherah was a pagan goddess that was worshiped throughout the Mediterranean world. She was considered to be the goddess of the sea, the consort of El, and the mother of Baal. She was always represented as a tree or pole, either planted or erected, then

decorated.

more info on wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah

Hmm there's some crazy stuff if you look on the internet in regards to Yahweh and Asherah (do a google)

 

[DanielRB]

I didnt realise that...sometimes I miss stuff when readin the bible as it can be a lifetime study

So perhaps the idea of creating the calf could have also come from the others that came out of egypt with them as there is writings and archeological finds of ancient egypt which state the offering of sacrifice to Asherah and Baal, two of the deities worshipped along side with Yahweh in that time. Asherah was also known in egypt as Hathor (the cow goddess). Asherah was worshipped by placing an idol made of the tree as in Exodus 34:12-14 and was a popular with the ancient israelites. Below is an extract from a Lutheran Church Website:


decorated.

more info on wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah

Hmm there's some crazy stuff if you look on the internet in regards to Yahweh and Asherah (do a google)

Shalom, Caliban,

El was a Canaanite god, as well as a term used for YHWH. In Canaanite worship, he was often referred to as "Bull-El". I tend to think that the Israelites at the foot of Siani were trying to honor "Bull-El" than any Egyptian deity--seeing as how their God had beat the pants off of the Egyptian deities.

In Messiah,

Daniel

 

[Caliban]

Shalom, Caliban,

El was a Canaanite god, as well as a term used for YHWH. In Canaanite worship, he was often referred to as "Bull-El". I tend to think that the Israelites at the foot of Siani were trying to honor "Bull-El" than any Egyptian deity--seeing as how their God had beat the pants off of the Egyptian deities.

In Messiah,

Daniel

El's consort was Asherah and were the creator Gods in Caananite mythos the hieros-gamos of male and female. Also El has been compared to the egyption God Ra. So Is Ra El?...??? Israel LOL didn't mean to do that