The God particle is a fabrication.

Zaius137

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The Higgs Boson is a mirage. One of sciences biggest gambles has come up bust. The main mechanism in the Big Bang that imparts mass to matter is missing leaving the Big Bang as just a fanciful tale of creation. The Standard Model in particle physics has a gapping hole that will kill it.

Hey what about God created?
 

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The Higgs Boson is a mirage. One of sciences biggest gambles has come up bust. The main mechanism in the Big Bang that imparts mass to matter is missing leaving the Big Bang as just a fanciful tale of creation. The Standard Model in particle physics has a gapping hole that will kill it.

Hey what about God created?

Not quite, theres still ~5% of masses to check out. Anyway, it doesn't matter whether god created it or not, these scientists are looking to see the mechanism by which other particles have mass. Why would god give all the other forces particle carriers and mechanisms behind them, but not gravity?

It was hardly a gamble, the LHC wasn't just built to find the higgs. And I'd hardly call the big bang fanciful, considering all the evidence for it having occured.
 
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Zaius137

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The major difference in the Higgs field from the other fields is that it was presumed to be all pervasive, something like Aether. I believe we are seeing just another all pervasive field theory bite the dust.

To maybe see if we are on the same page…

According to the Standard model paradigm for every field there is a virtual particle. In a particle accelerator these virtual particles are assumed to become real and are observed by decay components with there associated traces. I might ask if any of the theoretical particles have ever been observed directly and not via a decay scenario?

“It was hardly a gamble, the LHC wasn't just built to find the higgs. And I'd hardly call the big bang fanciful, considering all the evidence for it having occurred.”

Well actually the largest accelerators were built for the Standard Model research and specifically for the Higgs. By the way that endeavor cost more than to send a man to the moon. Is the Standard model just dust?
 
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Zaius137

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Something to add to Big Bang problems….

Horizon problem for CMB
Energy polarization of Quasars
Quantized Red shifts
General orientation of Galaxies implies a universe center
Type III stars are missing in early universe
Metals and heavy elements are far too abundant in early universe
Galaxy evolution does not match predictions.
Dark Matter and Dark Energy are not directly observable
Microwave anisotropy lacks predicted Quadrupoles
Delayed stellar synthesis from new Vacuum energy addition (inflation on Jean’s diameter)
BB Inflation near or exceeding speed of light (Special Relativity objections)

The Higgs Boson is missing, mass can not be imparted to matter.
 
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The major difference in the Higgs field from the other fields is that it was presumed to be all pervasive, something like Aether. I believe we are seeing just another all pervasive field theory bite the dust.

I see no issues with that, there are other theories for mass and it's causes.


According to the Standard model paradigm for every field there is a virtual particle. In a particle accelerator these virtual particles are assumed to become real and are observed by decay components with there associated traces. I might ask if any of the theoretical particles have ever been observed directly and not via a decay scenario?

You can't observe them directly no. There is other evidence for them apart from decay, such as the Casimir Effect.


Well actually the largest accelerators were built for the Standard Model research and specifically for the Higgs. By the way that endeavor cost more than to send a man to the moon. Is the Standard model just dust?

Yes, the Standard Model is a part of the research that the accelerators were built for, but not just that. The LHC's also looking into the Heirachy Problem, unified forces, CP violation and many more.

I actually hope the standard model is wrong, it gives Particle Physicists something to do rather than twiddle their thumbs if its perfect.

Something to add to Big Bang problems….

Horizon problem for CMB
Energy polarization of Quasars
Quantized Red shifts
General orientation of Galaxies implies a universe center
Type III stars are missing in early universe
Metals and heavy elements are far too abundant in early universe
Galaxy evolution does not match predictions.
Dark Matter and Dark Energy are not directly observable
Microwave anisotropy lacks predicted Quadrupoles
Delayed stellar synthesis from new Vacuum energy addition (inflation on Jean’s diameter)
BB Inflation near or exceeding speed of light (Special Relativity objections)

The Higgs Boson is missing, mass can not be imparted to matter.

I'm not a cosmologist, nor am I an astrophysicist, so I can't really talk about those issues. But the great thing about them is they give us something to look into and research about the origins of the universe. If you want more info, I believe Chalnoth is a cosmologist.

Also there are other models about the origins of mass rather than the Higgs field.
 
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Zaius137

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“You can't observe them directly no. There is other evidence for them apart from decay, such as the Casimir Effect.”

I am glad you brought up the Casimir effect. Under the Standard Model shouldn’t it have a field and virtual particle? I never could find any reference to it. Do you have a reference? Most discussions I ran across seem to place the effect in simple Quantum action.

Love to bring in Chalnoth
 
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The Higgs Boson is a mirage. One of sciences biggest gambles has come up bust.
That's not quite clear yet, but it's certainly possible. That's why they do the experiments, rather than just making stuff up: to see how the world really works.

The main mechanism in the Big Bang that imparts mass to matter is missing leaving the Big Bang as just a fanciful tale of creation.
Sorry, that's wrong. The Big Bang doesn't impart mass to anything, and the Higgs doesn't have anything to do with the Big Bang. The Big Bang was proposed long before anyone had a clue about most of particle physics, and it isn't going to go away if the Standard Model has to be revised.

The Standard Model in particle physics has a gapping hole that will kill it.
Quite possibly true, which would be wonderful, at least for particle physicists --it would give them something new to think about, and they really haven't had that much in the last twenty years. Successful theories are major triumphs, but they end up being quite boring. As it happens, theorists have been kicking around alternatives to a simple Higgs for decades. Perhaps they'll have to dust off some of their older theories, or come up with some new ones.

Hey what about God created?
What about it? If the Higgs gives mass to particles, then God didn't create, but if mass comes from some other mechanism, then he did? You might want to work on your logic here. (You might also want to try posting in the correct forum: this is not a formal debate, and doesn't belong here.)
 
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Zaius137

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“That's not quite clear yet, but it's certainly possible. That's why they do the experiments, rather than just making stuff up: to see how the world really works.”

Well if you look at the explored energies where the particle needs to be found at you would see that the particle has no where left to hide. Maybe you could apply some of your probability to increase it’s odds of being real.

“Sorry, that's wrong. The Big Bang doesn't impart mass to anything, and the Higgs doesn't have anything to do with the Big Bang. The Big Bang was proposed long before anyone had a clue about most of particle physics, and it isn't going to go away if the Standard Model has to be revised.”

Sorry that’s right. The Higgs field is part of that theory.
 
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“That's not quite clear yet, but it's certainly possible. That's why they do the experiments, rather than just making stuff up: to see how the world really works.”

Well if you look at the explored energies where the particle needs to be found at you would see that the particle has no where left to hide. Maybe you could apply some of your probability to increase it’s odds of being real.
The last time I checked, a Higgs in the range of ~120 - 140 Gev/c[sup]2[/sup] had not been ruled out with high confidence; that was the case as of the announcement of LHC results in August. If you know of more recent result, speak up.

“Sorry, that's wrong. The Big Bang doesn't impart mass to anything, and the Higgs doesn't have anything to do with the Big Bang. The Big Bang was proposed long before anyone had a clue about most of particle physics, and it isn't going to go away if the Standard Model has to be revised.”

Sorry that’s right. The Higgs field is part of that theory.
No, it's really not. Guth's original suggestion of inflation (not the Big Bang proper) suggested the Higgs as being the inflaton, the field whose transition drove inflation, but that has largely been ruled out by subsequent work. No doubt a detailed model of the early stages of the Big Bang will incorporate the Higgs, or whatever other mechanism confers mass, just as it will have to incorporate all of particle physics, but the Big Bang model does not depend on the existence of the Higgs.
 
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Zaius137

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“No, it's really not. Guth's original suggestion of inflation (not the Big Bang proper) suggested the Higgs as being the inflaton, the field whose transition drove inflation, but that has largely been ruled out by subsequent work. No doubt a detailed model of the early stages of the Big Bang will incorporate the Higgs, or whatever other mechanism confers mass, just as it will have to incorporate all of particle physics, but the Big Bang model does not depend on the existence of the Higgs.”

Yes it really is…

Actually the singlet scalar model for Dark Matter and non baryonic models have to incorporate the Higgs field (that is just for dark matter). The whole concept of mass condensing from energy needs a mechanism (formally the Higgs).

Here is just one proposal for non baryonic Dark Matter. Some of the math seems imposing but is really straight forward. The Feynman diagram says it all.

http://w3.iaa.es/~fabio/high_energy_09/Talks/Yaguna.pdf
 
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Zaius137

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Follow-up…

Thanks for Guth’s name thrown in here, got some good reading. But wasn’t his contribution to vacuum energy (dark energy)? In particular those Quantum fluctuations in a vacuole. I always found the explanations for increasing (for inflation) and then a sudden decreasing (for transitional region we are in now) to be contrived. But now days what isn’t?
 
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sfs

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Actually the singlet scalar model for Dark Matter and non baryonic models have to incorporate the Higgs field (that is just for dark matter).
Have to incorporate them into what? Please provide some references to papers in which some measurable aspect of the Big Bang is shown to be dependent on the existence of a single Higgs scalar.

The whole concept of mass condensing from energy needs a mechanism (formally the Higgs).
The Higgs is one mechanism for generating particle masses; others are possible.
Here is just one proposal for non baryonic Dark Matter. Some of the math seems imposing but is really straight forward. The Feynman diagram says it all.

http://w3.iaa.es/~fabio/high_energy_09/Talks/Yaguna.pdf

What's your point to introducing this link? I know about different proposals for the composition of dark matter (well, some of them, anyway). Nothing in this talk suggests that the Big Bang depends on the existence of a Higgs, which is what you were claiming. (And are you really claiming that you've worked through the math?)

Also, could you please support your statement that all masses for the Higgs have been ruled out experimentally?
 
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Zaius137

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"Have to incorporate them into what? Please provide some references to papers in which some measurable aspect of the Big Bang is shown to be dependent on the existence of a single Higgs scalar."


Actually the author of this slide show proposes that observed anonymous gamma rays are byproducts of dark matter candidate’s annihilations. He is extending the Standard Model with proposing an additional field “S” (singlet scalar). I take it that the equation only relates variables to the breaking of symmetry to produce stable particles for that field. Note the Higgs is an integral part of that equation. I thought you might pick up on the range of Higgs energy’s in the graph or maybe the Feynman Diagram depicting the Higgs. If you don’t like this one you will really hate some of the real technical papers…


What's your point to introducing this link? I know about different proposals for the composition of dark matter (well, some of them, anyway). Nothing in this talk suggests that the Big Bang depends on the existence of a Higgs, which is what you were claiming. (And are you really claiming that you've worked through the math?)"

Note I am only a lowly math layperson and even though I may work some elementary equations (real elementary) I am a master Googleite.

Also, could you please support your statement that all masses for the Higgs have been ruled out experimentally?[/quote]


“Data from the LHC's ATLAS and CMS detectors have now ruled out – with a confidence level of 95 per cent – all masses for the Higgs between 145 and 466 gigaelectronvolts (GeV). That covers the bulk of the mass range that is easiest for physicists to explore.”


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20817-higgs-boson-is-running-out-of-places-to-hide.html

Remember look at those graphs.

“Under what is known as the Standard Model of physics, the boson, which was named after British physicist Peter Higgs, is posited as having been the agent that gave mass and energy to matter just after the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago.”

http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFTRE77L5L420110822?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

Case in point
 
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"Have to incorporate them into what? Please provide some references to papers in which some measurable aspect of the Big Bang is shown to be dependent on the existence of a single Higgs scalar."


Actually the author of this slide show proposes that observed anonymous gamma rays are byproducts of dark matter candidate’s annihilations. He is extending the Standard Model with proposing an additional field “S” (singlet scalar). I take it that the equation only relates variables to the breaking of symmetry to produce stable particles for that field. Note the Higgs is an integral part of that equation. I thought you might pick up on the range of Higgs energy’s in the graph or maybe the Feynman Diagram depicting the Higgs. If you don’t like this one you will really hate some of the real technical papers…
Sorry, but nothing in your reply addresses my request. Yes, if a dark matter version of the Big Bang is correct, and if the dark matter is composed of this particular candidate, and if the Higgs is the mechanism of spontaneous symmetry breaking in the SM, then we should be able to observe certain decays. How does that make the BB depend on the Higgs, which was your claim? How would replacing the Higgs with a different symmetry-breaking mechanism affect the Big Bang? (Note: it wasn't the technical aspects of the work I was objecting to -- I have a PhD in particle physics -- but its irrelevance to your claim.)

“Data from the LHC's ATLAS and CMS detectors have now ruled out – with a confidence level of 95 per cent – all masses for the Higgs between 145 and 466 gigaelectronvolts (GeV). That covers the bulk of the mass range that is easiest for physicists to explore.”

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20817-higgs-boson-is-running-out-of-places-to-hide.html

Remember look at those graphs.

I've looked at them; they don't rule out masses between 120 and 140 GeV/c[sup]2[/sup], which is exactly what I said. Why are you quoting an article that makes clear that there is still a viable mass range for the Higgs to support your claim that there isn't?
 
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Zaius137

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I guess since the collapse of SM you will be taking some refresher courses at the old collage. Do they teach math at all in astrophysics? Ian can’t do probability either and he has a PhD in astrophysics. Maybe even take in some statistics while you’re at it.

“Sorry, but nothing in your reply addresses my request. Yes, if a dark matter version of the Big Bang is correct, and if the dark matter is composed of this particular candidate, and if the Higgs is the mechanism of spontaneous symmetry breaking in the SM, then we should be able to observe certain decays. How does that make the BB depend on the Higgs, which was your claim? How would replacing the Higgs with a different symmetry-breaking mechanism affect the Big Bang? (Note: it wasn't the technical aspects of the work I was objecting to -- I have a PhD in particle physics -- but its irrelevance to your claim.)”

Dark Matter according to the paradigm makes up 24% of omega matter in the Bang… If Dark Matter has no mechanism the BB is a belief system not a theory; it is un-testable in the realm of fantasy. You didn’t read the citation… here it is again and it clearly states the Boson gave mass and energy to matter.

http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFTRE77L5L420110822?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

The author’s statements not mine….

If the Boson is a mirage what gave mass and energy to matter? SM is not just incomplete it is wrong; BB can not just hunt up new physics every time it is challenged.

 
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Zaius137

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“I've looked at them; they don't rule out masses between 120 and 140 GeV/c2, which is exactly what I said. Why are you quoting an article that makes clear that there is still a viable mass range for the Higgs to support your claim that there isn't?”

Those energies are at the edge of the curve of prediction and were probed with the lesser accelerators to some degree. I think you are viewing the glass 5% full rather than 95% empty.
Good luck with the long shot… I will go with the higher probability every time.
 
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sfs

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“I've looked at them; they don't rule out masses between 120 and 140 GeV/c2, which is exactly what I said. Why are you quoting an article that makes clear that there is still a viable mass range for the Higgs to support your claim that there isn't?”

Those energies are at the edge of the curve of prediction and were probed with the lesser accelerators to some degree. I think you are viewing the glass 5% full rather than 95% empty.
No, I'm trying to accurately state the results, which is why I said this mass range was not yet ruled out with high confidence -- something that you seem finally to have acknowledged. Look, when you're wrong, the correct response is something like, "Oops, I guess I was wrong", not blathering on for pages, raising spurious objections, linking to unrelated articles to obfuscate the situation, and of course insulting the guy who's corrected you. Regardless of how you respond, you will still have been wrong. It's up to you, though, whether you appear merely to have been wrong about one fact, or wrong, pig-headed and churlish. So far, you have chosen the latter route every time. I don't know what you think you're accomplishing by this approach, but I'm pretty sure it's not having the effect you're looking for.
 
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I guess since the collapse of SM you will be taking some refresher courses at the old collage. Do they teach math at all in astrophysics? Ian can’t do probability either and he has a PhD in astrophysics. Maybe even take in some statistics while you’re at it.
Uh huh -- physics PhDs don't learn any math. Right. (And a refresher isn't needed, since alternatives to the Higgs were being widely considered and tested when I was in grad school, which was a long time ago.)

“Sorry, but nothing in your reply addresses my request. Yes, if a dark matter version of the Big Bang is correct, and if the dark matter is composed of this particular candidate, and if the Higgs is the mechanism of spontaneous symmetry breaking in the SM, then we should be able to observe certain decays. How does that make the BB depend on the Higgs, which was your claim? How would replacing the Higgs with a different symmetry-breaking mechanism affect the Big Bang? (Note: it wasn't the technical aspects of the work I was objecting to -- I have a PhD in particle physics -- but its irrelevance to your claim.)”

Dark Matter according to the paradigm makes up 24% of omega matter in the Bang… If Dark Matter has no mechanism the BB is a belief system not a theory; it is un-testable in the realm of fantasy. You didn’t read the citation… here it is again and it clearly states the Boson gave mass and energy to matter.
You seem to be confused about some basic ideas. The Higgs boson is the (or rather, one) proposed explanation for how particles acquire mass. Whether it is right or not, particles still have mass, dark matter is still dark and it is still matter with the same mass (assuming dark matter exists to begin with). Since the only thing that's known about dark matter is its mass, as long as the mass is unchanged the BB model is unaltered.
http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFTRE77L5L420110822?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0
If the Boson is a mirage what gave mass and energy to matter?
Some other mechanism, of course. It could be something as simple as multiple Higgs, or one of the whole series of technicolor models, or something much more exotic. You don't even need to know particle physics to know this: just read the bloody Wikipedia article on the Higgs.

SM is not just incomplete it is wrong; BB can not just hunt up new physics every time it is challenged.
Of course the SM is wrong; all particle physicists think that. That is, they think it's a good low-energy approximation to a more complete theory. They've been looking for decades for the evidence that will tell them how it's wrong, so they can begin to build a better theory. The idea that physicists are horrified by possible failure of the SM is simply ludicrous to anyone familiar with actual particle physics.

And you still haven't offered any evidence that any likely changes to the SM will destroy the BB.
 
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