The Glorified Black Body of Jesus

[AMM]

Link: The Glorified Black Body of Jesus

I thought this was a good read. Here's an excerpt towards the end of the essay:

And yet, two thousand years later in America, we are faced with the same problem and have struggled with it since the founding of our country. As a result of a long and complicated history with black skin, white people have been conditioned to regard blackness as a sign of danger. White Christians, too have (perhaps passively) presumed the guilt of Black bodies or tacitly considered them “unclean.” The fact that so many of us cannot identify with the struggle of Black men and women in this country is perhaps indicative of our failure to recognize Christ— and the Church— as Black. Black people bear the damning mark of stereotypes, all too often resulting in their mistreatment or even unjust death. But Christ and the Church are always found with those that are left out and marginalized. The very feast of Pentecost demonstrates nothing less than the fact that those who were once considered outsiders, foreign, unclean and strangers are now welcomed into the Body of Christ. What is more, within the Body of Christ, wherein are all shades of skin, what is maligned by the world is honored by the Church. By proclaiming that the Church is Black, we confront the racism that has resulted in our brothers and sisters being assaulted and slain for the color of their skin. Make no mistake, St. Moses and Jesus and the whole of the Church is with them today and on every day that Black men and women are killed unjustly. Are we with them?​

 

[Not David]

Whites have treated me better even than my own natives, you guys should stop having collective guilt for an act of violence committed by an individual.

 

[AMM]

Whites have treated me better even than my own natives, you guys should stop having collective guilt for an act of violence committed by an individual.

Did you read the article?

 

[All4Christ]

Did you read the article?

I read the article, and I honestly do not see why we should call Jesus black. He was Jewish - middle Eastern - neither black nor white. There are people of various races who are persecuted. Assigning a particular race other than the actual one of Christ doesn’t seem to be helpful from my POV. Many are downtrodden. Many experience racism and are marginalized besides blacks. To me, what’s important is that Jesus became human. He was downtrodden, yes; persecuted, yes; marginalized, yes. He was treated as the lowest of the low, and accepted it for our sake. Jesus is the ultimate example of Love for all.

 

[Albion]

.

 

[solid_core]

By proclaiming that the Church is Black, we confront the racism

It seems that if you proclaim that the church is black, you are actually supporting racism.

 

[prodromos]

Link: The Glorified Black Body of Jesus

I thought this was a good read.

I think it is a bit misplaced myself. What of all the other marginalized groups that are displaced as a result. The Church is every man. There is no Greek nor Jew.

 

[F.E.A.R.]

I don't know how can the Church be proclaimed "black". I know there's no racism in the Orthodox Church, but in all honesty, people have hated each other based on race for centuries and you can't break racism, you can't make it disappear just as you can't make countries and borders disappear. What happened cannot be justified, but on daily bases cops already kill dozens of people across the US. And nobody seems to care, not until this got viral. The people should be fighting for justice for all people that get killed by the "blue orchestra" in the US. Instead Floyd's death has been used for political purposes.

Whites have treated me better even than my own natives, you guys should stop having collective guilt for an act of violence committed by an individual.

Fun fact. Collective (white) guilt is only found in the USA. I don't want get political as to explain why it's that way and why such an agenda as "white guilt" has been pushed for years.

 

[AMM]

Assigning a particular race other than the actual one of Christ doesn’t seem to be helpful from my POV

What do you think of the numerous examples of iconography outside of the Greek and Slavic traditions that depict Christ, the Theotokos, and other saints as non-middle eastern? For example I've seen some ancient Ethiopian iconography that depicts them with, at the very least, darker skin

Jesus is the ultimate example of Love for all.

Agreed!

It seems that if you proclaim that the church is black, you are actually supporting racism.

How so?

I think it is a bit misplaced myself. What of all the other marginalized groups that are displaced as a result. The Church is every man. There is no Greek nor Jew.

I'm not sure that this does displace other marginalized groups simply by focusing on this one. This interview from the Antiochian archdiocese with Fr Paul Abernathy addresses that issue, I think. The whole interview is worth a watch (and contains a much less provocative thesis than the article does), but at the 11:00 mark, Fr Paul and Dcn Adam discuss that specifically.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=271563157293161

I don't know how can the Church be proclaimed "black". I know there's no racism in the Orthodox Church, but in all honesty, people have hated each other based on race for centuries and you can't break racism, you can't make it disappear just as you can't make countries and borders disappear. What happened cannot be justified, but on daily bases cops already kill dozens of people across the US. And nobody seems to care, not until this got viral. The people should be fighting for justice for all people that get killed by the "blue orchestra" in the US. Instead Floyd's death has been used for political purposes.

Fun fact. Collective (white) guilt is only found in the USA. I don't want get political as to explain why it's that way and why such an agenda as "white guilt" has been pushed for years.

I think people do care, and it's just been building up for a while. I think it may be that is the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

And yes, sin will be with us until the return of Christ. But does that mean we shouldn't strive against it? Yes, racism has been here since the time of the Prophet Moses (and before). But calling one thing a sin doesn't mean that everything else isn't a sin.

 

[renniks]

Link: The Glorified Black Body of Jesus

I thought this was a good read. Here's an excerpt towards the end of the essay:

And yet, two thousand years later in America, we are faced with the same problem and have struggled with it since the founding of our country. As a result of a long and complicated history with black skin, white people have been conditioned to regard blackness as a sign of danger. White Christians, too have (perhaps passively) presumed the guilt of Black bodies or tacitly considered them “unclean.” The fact that so many of us cannot identify with the struggle of Black men and women in this country is perhaps indicative of our failure to recognize Christ— and the Church— as Black. Black people bear the damning mark of stereotypes, all too often resulting in their mistreatment or even unjust death. But Christ and the Church are always found with those that are left out and marginalized. The very feast of Pentecost demonstrates nothing less than the fact that those who were once considered outsiders, foreign, unclean and strangers are now welcomed into the Body of Christ. What is more, within the Body of Christ, wherein are all shades of skin, what is maligned by the world is honored by the Church. By proclaiming that the Church is Black, we confront the racism that has resulted in our brothers and sisters being assaulted and slain for the color of their skin. Make no mistake, St. Moses and Jesus and the whole of the Church is with them today and on every day that Black men and women are killed unjustly. Are we with them?​

There's no Greek or Jew, no slave or free, no male or female, no black or white or in between, we are all the same. No we should not see Jesus as black or white, but we should be color blind.

 

[F.E.A.R.]

I think people do care, and it's just been building up for a while. I think it may be that is the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

And yes, sin will be with us until the return of Christ. But does that mean we shouldn't strive against it? Yes, racism has been here since the time of the Prophet Moses (and before). But calling one thing a sin doesn't mean that everything else isn't a sin.

No they don't. Most of the rioters (Antifa) never even heard of George Floyd. What they have been doing is worse than what was done to George Floyd or any other person killed by the blue orchestra. These so called "protestors" have been attacking random people, even people holding the American flag and looting stores. "Do what we say or you'll die". Is this how you fight against racism? Why not attack the cops, but the civilians who have nothing to do with this? Why not loot or brake in areas such as Wall Street or Hollywood, or someone else is behind the scenes paying Antifa to do this? Trump may be a clown, but at least he called out that he's gonna deploy the military. This has gone far enough, this is not how you fight racism.

 

[All4Christ]

What do you think of the numerous examples of iconography outside of the Greek and Slavic traditions that depict Christ, the Theotokos, and other saints as non-middle eastern? For example I've seen some ancient Ethiopian iconography that depicts them with, at the very least, darker skin

I don’t consider it to be heretical for someone to depict Jesus in more of their cultural style, but I do think it is best to depict Him in the style of what He actually was. This especially is important imho when you have a mixture of many cultures in one area. Jesus is the God of people from all cultures, and America is not just one culture. Likewise, Jesus isn’t more of any specific race or culture in any form other than His humanity.

St John of Damascus said that we can depict Jesus because He took on flesh - God became man and no longer was just spirit (I’m butchering the quotation ). With that in mind, I believe the best thing to do is to depict Jesus in the realm of the culture / race His humanity was part of. Note that there is a range of skin tones in people who are Middle Eastern. We don’t know, however, whether Jesus was on the darker or lighter side. We just know he was Middle Eastern - so from my perspective, that’s the best way to depict his humanity. He took flesh from Mary, who was a Jewish woman of Middle Eastern descent.

 

[AMM]

There's no Greek or Jew, no slave or free, no male or female, no black or white or in between, we are all the same. No we should not see Jesus as black or white, but we should be color blind.

The author of this article specifically references that verse from Galatians.

And saying we should be color blind is flawed, I think. God made color. He gave us a diversity of skin tones. Just as he gave us other differences in our physical bodies. Let's not be blind and intentionally ignore one aspect of God's loving gift to us. If he wanted us to be color blind, he would have made us color blind.

No they don't. Most of the rioters (Antifa) never even heard of George Floyd. What they have been doing is worse than what was done to George Floyd or any other person killed by the blue orchestra. These so called "protestors" have been attacking random people, even people holding the American flag and looting stores. "Do what we say or you'll die". Is this how you fight against racism? Why not attack the cops, but the civilians who have nothing to do with this? Why not loot or brake in areas such as Wall Street or Hollywood, or someone else is behind the scenes paying Antifa to do this? Trump may be a clown, but at least he called out that he's gonna deploy the military. This has gone far enough, this is not how you fight racism.

I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but from what I have seen and heard (from my friends who have been at these protests), that's not entirely accurate. Everyone I know who has gone to these protests or thought about going knows about George Floyd and many of the others who have been killed recently.

How do you think we should be fighting racism?

I don’t consider it to be heretical for someone to depict Jesus in more of their cultural style, but I do think it is best to depict Him in the style of what He actually was. This especially is important imho when you have a mixture of many cultures in one area. Jesus is the God of people from all cultures, and America is not just one culture. Likewise, Jesus isn’t more of any specific race or culture in any form other than His humanity.

St John of Damascus said that we can depict Jesus because He took on flesh - God became man and no longer was just spirit (I’m butchering the quotation ). With that in mind, I believe the best thing to do is to depict Jesus in the realm of the culture / race His humanity was part of. Note that there is a range of skin tones in people who are Middle Eastern. We don’t know, however, whether Jesus was on the darker or lighter side. We just know he was Middle Eastern - so from my perspective, that’s the best way to depict his humanity. He took flesh from Mary, who was a Jewish woman of Middle Eastern descent.

Is it not the case that icons are meant to display spiritual truths, not historical realism? Isn't that the Church's biggest criticism of the western renaissance-era religious art that basically said, "we should depict the saints how they actually were?"

 

[renniks]

And saying we should be color blind is flawed, I think. God made color. He gave us a diversity of skin tones. Just as he gave us other differences in our physical bodies. Let's not be blind and intentionally ignore one aspect of God's loving gift to us. If he wanted us to be color blind, he would have made us color blind.

I think perhaps you misunderstand what I'm saying. We should not be defined by our race but our identity in Christ. Every time we start defining ourselves by race, all I see is division. Race is actually nonexistent and irrelevant. We are all of the same blood.

 

[Nick T]

While I think the statement "Jesus is black" on its own is going to be misinterpreted more than its going to be understood, I think the article itself is fantastic and raises very important points. In particular the way he uses Origen to illustrate, as is also evident in scriptures and the Fathers, that Christ's identification with the Gentiles is part of his identification with the oppressed and the "other", is very valuable.

It points to the fact that the Church has an important role as the place where the "dividing wall of hostility" can be broken down, which can be accomplished only through Christ who did so in his human flesh.

 

[F.E.A.R.]

I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but from what I have seen and heard (from my friends who have been at these protests), that's not entirely accurate. Everyone I know who has gone to these protests or thought about going knows about George Floyd and many of the others who have been killed recently.

How do you think we should be fighting racism?

Tucker Carlson has already made a video on it. Other videos posted by random people recording during these protests that I regret watching. Only a small group of people know about George Floyd, others may have heard, but were not interested in the first place, and the rest just don't care. Antifa has done nothing but harm as always, and the elections are on the 14th of December 2020. Whatever is the purpose of non-government organizations, they used George Floyd's death for their political goals. This is not a civil war where protestors fight and die against the corrupt government to change something or overthrow it, these are mentally sick people that hurt and kill other civilians, loot, break and purge stores. Trump may be a clown, but he, as any other President has the authority to deploy the military since the situation has gotten out of control.

You can't fight it, you can control it, lower it. Reeducation in schools, reforming the police and firing existing police officers (this is the only way to clean it out of corruption, Georgia is an example for what it did after the fall of the USSR). Taking measurements in the black ghettos (what I don't know, but something for the better). Also in a country like Texas, US cops commit the most crimes, which I'm baffled that no one seems to take any actions against this. But from my point of view, I don't see anyway a country like the US, who claims itself to be "first" in everything to "fight" and "win" against racism.

Mixing people in a society has not brought anything but harm, only a small group of people will get along. Everybody should live in their own districts, cities, countries or whatever. Because we're different not just by skin, also by genetics and culture. I understand that race mixing has been present since ancient times, but people of different color cannot live along. Obviously as a white guy, I want to live in a white community (If I were to live in America), with my own people, and that's normal. People like to be with their own.

This is my point of view, you don't have to agree with me.

 

[AMM]

I think perhaps you misunderstand what I'm saying. We should not be defined by our race but our identity in Christ. Every time we start defining ourselves by race, all I see is division. Race is actually nonexistent and irrelevant. We are all of the same blood.

I agree that we should be defined by our identity in Christ. And I do agree that at the end of the day, we are all humans - not different species.

Yes, there is division. I don't deny that. But I just also see many of my peers experiencing this enormous level of division the way things are/have been (meaning, even before these events).

Let's focus on the issue at hand. There are people who are being abused because of their skin color. That's the problem, and we need to speak out about that. Christ tells us that He is found in our neighbor, the weakest, the poorest, the most hated of society. St John Chrysostom teaches us the same thing. If our society treats African Americans like that, then there is Christ. I believe it is in that sense (at least partially) that the article says that Christ is black.

 

[Nick T]

Mixing people in a society has not brought anything but harm, only a small group of people will get along. Everybody should live in their own districts, cities, countries or whatever. Because we're different not just by skin, also by genetics and culture. I understand that race mixing has been present since ancient times, but people of different color cannot live along. Obviously as a white guy, I want to live in a white community (If I were to live in America), with my own people, and that's normal. People like to be with their own.

This is my point of view, you don't have to agree with me.

How do we reconcile this with the Church, whose very foundation relies upon the mixing of different groups of people into one body? This sounds exactly like the kind of judaising error, with the different "races" kept separate because of supposedly irreconcilable customs, that St. Paul condemns in the scriptures. I don't think it is compatible with Orthodoxy.

 

[AMM]

While I think the statement "Jesus is black" on its own is going to be misinterpreted more than its going to be understood, I think the article itself is fantastic and raises very important points. In particular the way he uses Origen to illustrate, as is also evident in scriptures and the Fathers, that Christ's identification with the Gentiles is part of his identification with the oppressed and the "other", is very valuable.

It points to the fact that the Church has an important role as the place where the "dividing wall of hostility" can be broken down, which can be accomplished only through Christ who did so in his human flesh.

Yeah, on it's own it is definitely a, shall I say, daring and provocative statement. But I do think that provocative statements are good precisely for that reason - they catch our attention and force us to think. Nobody bats an eye if you say "Jesus was a Jew from the tribe of Judah and lived in Palestine." The Church should be the leader in changing any hostility, hatred, and sin - wherever it is found in society. Not because of politics, but because sin and division are death, and Christ, the bridegroom of the Church, is Life and Salvation.

 

[F.E.A.R.]

How do we reconcile this with the Church, whose very foundation relies upon the mixing of different groups of people into one body? This sounds exactly like the kind of judaising error, with the different "races" kept separate because of supposedly irreconcilable customs, that St. Paul condemns in the scriptures. I don't think it is compatible with Orthodoxy.

I know it's not compatible with Orthodoxy, but I'm quite interested what illuminated theologians or monks have to say on this, because only they know the answer. Still mixing of different groups has been present in Europe since the dawn of men, the problem starts when we see someone from another skin color mixing with another from a different skin color. There's something in us, in every race, that we don't like that. And that can't be denied, that's why I'm gonna repeat, for me only those who have been illuminated by God, be it theologians or monks (someone like Elder Efthymios), know the answer. But even they are very well aware despite the teachings of the Church, man from whatever skin color, does not like to mix.