The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

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The word "all" is defined in the verses I gave you earlier, which you prefer to ignore.
This time I will bold what the word "all" is defined as. Fair enough?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Do restorationists read down 'aionion'? Do damnationists read down 'ta panta'? I believe the Bible ends on the note 'And they all live happily forever after' lol.

I'll leave you with that for the night shift, Steve. God bless.
 
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Saint Steven

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You have not properly reconciled the two explicit principles i.e. the dead will be cast into LOF forever, and all will be worship the Lamb.
All means, all those who made the grade.
This might help.
Every knee (all knees) will bow and every tongue (all tongues) will acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. (see note on "acknowledge" below at the bottom of this post)
Where will this happen? "... in heaven and on earth and under the earth..." (in the realm of the dead) No one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved.

Any questions?

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
 
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Saint Steven

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As you can see, this Rev project is slowly coming along, I'll piece it all together into a cogent summary soon I hope.
Yes. This is VERY close now. Fantastic work!
Stay at it. This is an important puzzle piece. HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Saint Steven

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Yes, Rev indeed teaches that those who don't get imprinted by the Beast will reign with Christ for the millennium and not be hurt by the second death.
Something occurred to me as I read this.
And specifically, "... not be hurt by the second death."
It says "hurt" not "killed". Thus we can infer the opposite for the rest.
The others will be "hurt", but not killed. However, it is death, so SOMETHING has to die. What do we suppose that is?

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
 
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FineLinen

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Our God, we will trust thee. Shall we not find thee equal to our faith? One day, we shall laugh ourselves to scorn that we looked for so little from thee; for thy giving will not be limited by our hoping.

O thou of little faith! "in everything,"—I am quoting your own Bible; nay, more, I am quoting a divine soul that knew his master Christ, and in his strength opposed apostles, not to say christians, to their faces, because they could not believe more than a little in God; could believe only for themselves and not for their fellows; could believe for the few of the chosen nation, for whom they had God's ancient word, but could not believe for the multitude of the nations, for the millions of hearts that God had made to search after him and find him;—"In everything," says St Paul, "In everything, by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known unto God."

For this everything, nothing is too small. That it should trouble us is enough. There is some principle involved in it worth the notice even of God himself, for did he not make us so that the thing does trouble us? And surely for this everything, nothing can be too great. When the Son of man cometh and findeth too much faith on the earth—may God in his mercy slay us. Meantime, we will hope and trust.

Do you count it a great faith to believe what God has said?

It seems to me, I repeat, a little faith, and, if alone, worthy of reproach. To believe what he has not said is faith indeed, and blessed. For that comes of believing in HIM. Can you not believe in God himself? Or, confess,—do you not find it so hard to believe what he has said, that even that is almost more than you can do? If I ask you why, will not the true answer be—"Because we are not quite sure that he did say it"? If you believed in God you would find it easy to believe the word. You would not even need to inquire whether he had said it: you would know that he meant it.

Let us then dare something. Let us not always be unbelieving children.

Let us keep in mind that the Lord, not forbidding those who insist on seeing before they will believe, blesses those who have not seen and yet have believed—those who trust in him more than that—who believe without the sight of the eyes, without the hearing of the ears. They are blessed to whom a wonder is not a fable, to whom a mystery is not a mockery, to whom a glory is not an unreality—who are content to ask, "Is it like Him?" It is a dull-hearted, unchildlike people that will be always putting God in mind of his promises. Those promises are good to reveal what God is; if they think them good as binding God, let them have it so for the hardness of their hearts. They prefer the Word to the Spirit: it is theirs.

Even such will leave us—some of them will, if not all—to the "uncovenanted mercies of God." We desire no less; we hope for no better. Those are the mercies beyond our height, beyond our depth, beyond our reach. We know in whom we have believed, and we look for that which it hath not entered into the heart of man to conceive.

Shall God's thoughts be surpassed by man's thoughts? God's giving by man's asking? God's creation by man's imagination? No. Let us climb to the height of our Alpine desires; let us leave them behind us and ascend the spear-pointed Himmalays of our aspirations; still shall we find the depth of God's sapphire above us; still shall we find the heavens higher than the earth, and his thoughts and his ways higher than our thoughts and our ways.

Ah Lord! be thou in all our being; as not in the Sundays of our time alone, so not in the chambers of our hearts alone.

We dare not think that thou canst not, carest not; that some things are not for thy beholding, some questions not to be asked of thee. For are we not all thine—utterly thine? That which a man speaks not to his fellow, we speak to thee. Our very passions we hold up to thee, and say, "Behold, Lord! Think about us; for thus thou hast made us." We would not escape from our history by fleeing into the wilderness, by hiding our heads in the sands of forgetfulness, or the repentance that comes of pain, or the lethargy of hopelessness. We take it, as our very life, in our hand, and flee with it unto thee. Triumphant is the answer which thou boldest for every doubt. It may be we could not understand it yet, even if thou didst speak it "with most miraculous organ."
But thou shalt at least find faith in the earth, O Lord, if thou comest to look for it now—the faith of ignorant but hoping children, who know that they do not know, and believe that thou knowest.

And for our brothers and sisters, who cleave to what they call thy word, thinking to please thee so, they are in thy holy safe hands, who hast taught us that whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; though unto him that blasphemes against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven_.

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice
 
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Hillsage

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The 9 plates and 32 screws in my face just might be a perfect bionic fit. ;)

And since I'm here I have to comment on your #71 post;
Only God can save souls. Unless that's too regressive.

JAM 1:21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

JAM 5:20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.


The above scriptures pertain to YOU "working out YOUR souls salvation with fear and trembling" or the brethren working out the salvation of your soul. Your above quote pertains to your spirit being saved, and not your soul.

PHI 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Yes God is at work in us TO WILL and TO DO, but if you don't then your soul's salvation ain't gonna happen. God only over rides the salvation of your spirit, not your soul. What WILL did you exercise when you were birthed into your earthly family? NONE! Same for those whose spirit is born NOT OF THEIR WILL....but HIS.

JOH 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Sorry for the drive by shooting, but I'm headed to church now and really don't know what this thread is all about.
 
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FineLinen

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The 9 plates and 32 screws in my face just might be a perfect bionic fit. ;)

And since I'm here I have to comment on your #71 post;


JAM 1:21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

JAM 5:20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.


The above scriptures pertain to YOU "working out YOUR souls salvation with fear and trembling" or the brethren working out the salvation of your soul. Your above quote pertains to your spirit being saved, and not your soul.

PHI 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Yes God is at work in us TO WILL and TO DO, but if you don't then your soul's salvation ain't gonna happen. God only over rides the salvation of your spirit, not your soul. What WILL did you exercise when you were birthed into your earthly family? NONE! Same for those whose spirit is born NOT OF THEIR WILL....but HIS.

JOH 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Sorry for the drive by shooting, but I'm headed to church now and really don't know what this thread is all about.

Dear Sage: How do you expect to wear the priestly garments with any dignity if you don't know what this thread is all about? (LOL)

At this stage of our Father's glorious revealings, I now know I have not begun to know the vastness of Him who can devise Pi. Have you found the last digit yet? 3.14156>>>>>>>>>>>

Brother, I love you! His fellowship has brought us together for such a time as this.
 
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Saint Steven

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Sorry for the drive by shooting, but I'm headed to church now and really don't know what this thread is all about.
Your ignorance is forgiven.
My comment was to counter the claim that disciples save souls.
Hopefully you were MORE in agreement with MY statement than the other.
As if that counts for anything. - lol

Had I been speaking (posting) to you, I probably would have said "spirit".
Only God can save our spirit.
 
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Your ignorance is forgiven.
My comment was to counter the claim that disciples save souls.
Hopefully you were MORE in agreement with MY statement than the other.
As if that counts for anything. - lol

Had I been speaking (posting) to you, I probably would have said "spirit".
Only God can save our spirit.

Dear Saint: The present progressive tense of our Abba is moving and moving and moving to bring us Home to His Heart & His tri-partate Being. It is in the realm of "be" being, not a one time event, an ongoing experience.

esothen, sozomenos & sothesomai

That your whole spirit & soul & body be saved in all three dimensions of past, present & future.

 
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Saint Steven

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Dear Saint: The present progressive tense of our Abba is moving and moving and moving to bring us Home to His Heart & His tri-partate Being. It is in the realm of "be" being, not a one time event, an ongoing experience.

esothen, sozomenos & sothesomai

That your whole spirit & soul & body be saved in all three dimensions of past, present & future.

Yes, I agree. Good reminder, thanks.
In my original post on this subject I was replying to a Damnationist.
So, in order to be understood, I needed to speak in Damnationese. (to coin a term)

As you are painfully aware, they have a whole different way of looking at things and of talking about them. Salvation to them is a one time event that leaves them on shaky ground, should they ever mess up. They believe they can actually lose their salvation. Which sounds very careless to me. - lol

We on the other hand know we are a mess and don't care. (according to Brennan Manning, anyway) We be ragamuffins, one and all. Heaven will basically be one big orphanage. (with a hot tub)
 
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Hillsage

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Dear Sage: How do you expect to wear the priestly garments with any dignity if you don't know what this thread is all about? (LOL)

At this stage of our Father's glorious revealings, I now know I have not begun to know the vastness of Him who can devise Pi. Have you found the last digit yet? 3.14156>>>>>>>>>>>

Brother, I love you! His fellowship has brought us together for such a time as this.
I'm pretty much depending on being led of the Spirit. Hopefully the capitalized one. ;) That plus, after all my years here, has anything really changed? Other than Steven that is. :)
 
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Hillsage

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Dear Saint: The present progressive tense of our Abba is moving and moving and moving to bring us Home to His Heart & His tri-partate Being. It is in the realm of "be" being, not a one time event, an ongoing experience.

esothen, sozomenos & sothesomai

That your whole spirit & soul & body be saved in all three dimensions of past, present & future.

Well done FL. Robin has become 'music to my ears' literally. Since Viet Nam did take a bite out of my hearing, making me a qualified DAV D.C. :cool:

OK, I've said enough and it's off to the garage for domestic duty before a 20+ mile bicycle ride with the guys at 3. Nope, I never did quit riding bikes after that bad wreck 15 years ago....my first ride was actually with my jaw still wired shut at the time. :swoon:
 
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FineLinen

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Yes, I agree. Good reminder, thanks.
In my original post on this subject I was replying to a Damnationist.
So, in order to be understood, I needed to speak in Damnationese. (to coin a term)

As you are painfully aware, they have a whole different way of looking at things and of talking about them. Salvation to them is a one time event that leaves them on shaky ground, should they ever mess up. They believe they can actually lose their salvation. Which sounds very careless to me. - lol

We on the other hand know we are a mess and don't care. (according to Brennan Manning, anyway) We be ragamuffins, one and all. Heaven will basically be one big orphanage. (with a hot tub)

Dear brother Steve: This glorious Road is one of becoming. My spirit points to a vastness so deep and broad it defies words to express. Perhaps "exceedingly abundantly above all we can ask or think" points to it, but still falls abundantly short of what cannot be voiced in words. It is the Realm of Spirit, perhaps "wind words" may help to explain what cannot be explained, it is better felt than telt.

As my life reaches toward a close I am aware I am a ragamuffin who has not been able to but touch the hem of His garments. But that hem has been touched, and puts within one the longing to lean upon His bosom and hear the wind words from His mouth.

In the middle of the night
I look up to the sky
I can hear You
Singing over me
Through the fire and the flood
I know that I am loved
I can hear You
Singing over me.
 
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Well done FL. Robin has become 'music to my ears' literally. Since Viet Nam did take a bite out of my hearing, making me a qualified DAV D.C. :cool:

OK, I've said enough and it's off to the garage for domestic duty before a 20+ mile bicycle ride with the guys at 3. Nope, I never did quit riding bikes after that bad wreck 15 years ago....my first ride was actually with my jaw still wired shut at the time. :swoon:

Dear Sage: When I was a tough robust figure of a man, I rode my serious multi-geared (10 speed) through the mountains of Pa. for tens of thousands of miles. Some kids shouted out one day "look at that old man riding a bicycle." 30 years of age and already an old man.

Thank you for directing the Saint this way: I am so weak in faith I know not why Abba bothers with me.

What a motley group we are, wires, screws, titanium bars holding us together in the Palm of His Hand!

In the middle of the night
I look up to the sky
I can hear You
Singing over me
Through the fire and the flood
I know that I am loved
I can hear You
Singing over me.
 
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Saint Steven

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What a motley group we are, wires, screws, titanium bars holding us together in the Palm of His Hand!
I may be the only one of us that can make it through a metal detector. I don't even wear a wedding ring.
 
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As my life reaches toward a close I am aware I am a ragamuffin who has not been able to but touch the hem of His garments. But that hem has been touched, and puts within one the longing to lean upon His bosom and hear the wind words from His mouth.
Luke 16:25
“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
 
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