The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

[Der Alte]

Again, you refuse to move past the Revelation.

There is no "past Revelation." Why was John, one of the original, disciples ignorant of all those proof texts which are manipulated to make it appear that all mankind will be saved?

Revelation 22:20-21 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. ​

The End.

 

[Lazarus Short]

There is no "past Revelation." Why was John, one of the original, disciples ignorant of all those proof texts which are manipulated to make it appear that all mankind will be saved?

Revelation 22:20-21 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. ​

The End.

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

- First Corinthians 15:25-28, KJV

The End.

 

[mmksparbud]

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -Rotherham Emphasized-

Dead=

nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

Breathed his last/ lifeless.

Deceased/ departed.

Destitute of life/ without life.

Inanimate.

Yes---and that is what happens to those in the lake of fire. There is this for those that are alive and being preached to.
Rom_8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[Der Alte]

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
- First Corinthians 15:25-28, KJV
The End.

1 Corinthians was written 53-57 AD
Revelation was written ca. 95 AD
My question again why does John not know anything about UR? Paul and John met in Galatia. Galatians 2:9

 

[FineLinen]

Dead=

nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

Breathed his last/ lifeless.

Deceased/ departed.

Destitute of life/ without life.

Inanimate.

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit."

 

[mmksparbud]

Dead=

nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

Breathed his last/ lifeless.

Deceased/ departed.

Destitute of life/ without life.

Inanimate.

Yes, Like I said---that is what happens to those who end up in the lake of fire!!

 

[Der Alte]

...

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit."

This verse does not mean what UR-ites think it does.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.[Ecc 9:10 supra]
​

 

[Lazarus Short]

Yes, Like I said---that is what happens to those who end up in the lake of fire!!

Exactly! They're dead, Dead, DEAD...and that being so, Death cannot be defeated, and God cannot boast over its lack of sting and victory. But praise Jesus the Christ Who has done the deed, and has, is, and will defeat Death. Being the last enemy to be defeated still means it is defeated, and if anyone is still dead, how can that happen?

 

[mmksparbud]

Exactly! They're dead, Dead, DEAD...and that being so, Death cannot be defeated, and God cannot boast over its lack of sting and victory. But praise Jesus the Christ Who has done the deed, and has, is, and will defeat Death. Being the last enemy to be defeated still means it is defeated, and if anyone is still dead, how can that happen?

Glad you understand the word dead---without life! Exactly how those in the lake of fire end up! And never again will anyone or any animal ever die again---God destroys death. He destroys sinners, no sin left---unless, of course, because He has destroyed sin that means that sin is still present and He has not destroyed sin and it's somewhere there giggling!

 

[Lazarus Short]

Glad you understand the word dead---without life! Exactly how those in the lake of fire end up! And never again will anyone or any animal ever die again---God destroys death. He destroys sinners, no sin left---unless, of course, because He has destroyed sin that means that sin is still present and He has not destroyed sin and it's somewhere there giggling!

You are skating around my point again.

 

[mmksparbud]

You are skating around my point again.

Nope--you are dancing around the truth of the lake of fire and the end of death. Dead, Dead, Dead--Never to raise it's ugly little head again. The fact that you think the destruction of the sinners and the end of death means that death is not done away with---doesn't matter. That's like saying water is not water because it's water---God says it is destroyed and that ends the matter because what God says is what happens. Hell ends up in ashes---that's it. Satan and his followers will be no more.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Here's some context to Ezekiel 28 - I know that a lot of people insist that the subject of the chapter, the prince of Tyre is actually Satan. No, sorry, for these reasons:

The previous two chapters had been all about the literal city of Tyre and the bad fate God had in store for it. Chapter 28 is about the prince of the same literal city, and there is no subject break until toward the end of that chapter.

God says, “…thou art a man and not God…” (verse 2) - but if this prince was really Satan, don’t you think God would have said so? No – it’s a literal city, a literal prince, and a man at that.

Verse 8: “They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die…”. The previous verse speaks of terrible strangers who draw the sword against this prince, but Satan cannot be taken down with literal swords, as he is a spirit being.

Verse 13: “Thou hast been in Eden…”. This does not mean that the prince of Tyre was in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve – as ever, it’s all in the context. See 27:23: “Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad were thy merchants.” Eden is treated as a literal country like any other literal country of the time. For more on this subject, see the books of David Rohl especially Legend. However, do not think that I agree with all of Rohl’s conclusions.

In view of all the above I must confess that I find 28:14, which is the crux of the whole Satan argument, to be a puzzle, but I’m not going to set one verse against the context of three chapters of text.

As for Death and the defeat of it, I see that you are SDA, so I don't see any further profit in trying to convince you, for Sister White has spoken...well sort of. I noticed in her writings that she put forth an annihilationist position, but at other times she spoke of people going to Hell. Neither involves the complete defeat of Death.

 

[mmksparbud]

Here's some context to Ezekiel 28 - I know that a lot of people insist that the subject of the chapter, the prince of Tyre is actually Satan. No, sorry, for these reasons:

The previous two chapters had been all about the literal city of Tyre and the bad fate God had in store for it. Chapter 28 is about the prince of the same literal city, and there is no subject break until toward the end of that chapter.

God says, “…thou art a man and not God…” (verse 2) - but if this prince was really Satan, don’t you think God would have said so? No – it’s a literal city, a literal prince, and a man at that.

Verse 8: “They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die…”. The previous verse speaks of terrible strangers who draw the sword against this prince, but Satan cannot be taken down with literal swords, as he is a spirit being.

Verse 13: “Thou hast been in Eden…”. This does not mean that the prince of Tyre was in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve – as ever, it’s all in the context. See 27:23: “Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad were thy merchants.” Eden is treated as a literal country like any other literal country of the time. For more on this subject, see the books of David Rohl especially Legend. However, do not think that I agree with all of Rohl’s conclusions.

In view of all the above I must confess that I find 28:14, which is the crux of the whole Satan argument, to be a puzzle, but I’m not going to set one verse against the context of three chapters of text.

As for Death and the defeat of it, I see that you are SDA, so I don't see any further profit in trying to convince you, for Sister White has spoken...well sort of. I noticed in her writings that she put forth an annihilationist position, but at other times she spoke of people going to Hell. Neither involves the complete defeat of Death.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

So the King of Tyre was created, not born and he was the covering cherub? Lucifer was a covering cherub, as is Gabriel . I don't care how great a king is---he will not stand in the presence of God and cover Him with his wings!! He was perfect? The city if Eden was never described as the Garden of God. King of Tyre was never on the Holy Mountain of God. Read it will you? And don't just parrot what others have said.

I know all that, have heard it countless times. We get our belief in the state of the dead from scripture---not from EGW. Yes, she was an annihilist, but we all also believe there is a real hell for Jesus said so. The wicked will go to hell, and die there. You say that as though it is contradictory to be an annihilist and believe in hell---not true. She did not believe in an eternally burning hell. Our doctrines do not come from her, they come from careful study of the bible. Our founders studied the bible carefully as a group and she was one of them and when they all agreed on what the bible said, she would have a revelation that would confirm. She did not dictate what was doctrine, contrary to what most people think. Again with the death of death does not defeat death---have you any idea how utterly ridiculous that sounds? If Gold says death is deafeated---it is defeated! You do not seem to comprehend that whatever God says is. Death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire---Satan and his followers end up as ashes. God has said it and that is what will happen. Are you not aware that it is impossible for God to lie? If he sees an elephant and says it is a dog---it becomes a dog by the power of His word. If He says the grass is purple and the sky is yellow---that is what it will be. He spoke a world into existance. You are not powerful enough to say---death is not destroyed by the death of death!! You just sound.........

 

[FineLinen]

Here's some context to Ezekiel 28 - I know that a lot of people insist that the subject of the chapter, the prince of Tyre is actually Satan. No, sorry, for these reasons:

The previous two chapters had been all about the literal city of Tyre and the bad fate God had in store for it. Chapter 28 is about the prince of the same literal city, and there is no subject break until toward the end of that chapter.

God says, “…thou art a man and not God…” (verse 2) - but if this prince was really Satan, don’t you think God would have said so? No – it’s a literal city, a literal prince, and a man at that.

Verse 8: “They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die…”. The previous verse speaks of terrible strangers who draw the sword against this prince, but Satan cannot be taken down with literal swords, as he is a spirit being.

Verse 13: “Thou hast been in Eden…”. This does not mean that the prince of Tyre was in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve – as ever, it’s all in the context. See 27:23: “Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad were thy merchants.” Eden is treated as a literal country like any other literal country of the time. For more on this subject, see the books of David Rohl especially Legend. However, do not think that I agree with all of Rohl’s conclusions.

In view of all the above I must confess that I find 28:14, which is the crux of the whole Satan argument, to be a puzzle, but I’m not going to set one verse against the context of three chapters of text.

As for Death and the defeat of it, I see that you are SDA, so I don't see any further profit in trying to convince you, for Sister White has spoken...well sort of. I noticed in her writings that she put forth an annihilationist position, but at other times she spoke of people going to Hell. Neither involves the complete defeat of Death.

Death & annihilation wins, the Father of all fathers loses?

Dear St. Paul: does death & annihilation win?

The whole of created life shall be delivered, NOT some of it, the all!

 

[mmksparbud]

Death & annihilation wins, the Father of all fathers loses?

The whole of created life shall be delivered, NOT some of it, the all!

Not according to what the word of God says. The ones who love and obey Him will be saved. Nothing else will. As in the days of Noah---God warned for 120 years, then the door closed on the ark. There was no 2nd chance. Those outside His ark all died, inclouding all the animals. It will be again---only this time through fire---the whole planet will be remade. None of the old will remain. If you do not believe that God is love and that He has the power and the authoirity to do as He sees fit---you will not spend eternity with Him. You are either for Him or against Him---there is no 3rd choice, just as there is no 2nd chance. God will be victorious over everything. He will destroy death forever---the fact that you can not comprehend that is your problem, not His. The elements, everything, obeys His voice and will do exactly as He says. Death dies never to raise it's ugly head again. If you think that the death of death is not death---that's your problem. He will do as He decides to do with or without your approval.

 

[FineLinen]

"God knew what he was doing from the very beginning. He decided from the outset to shape the lives of those who love him along the same lines as the life of his Son. The Son stands first in the line of humanity he restored. We see the original and intended shape of our lives there in him. After God made that decision of what his children should be like, he followed it up by calling people by name. After he called them by name, he set them on a solid basis with himself. And then, after getting them established, he stayed with them to the end, gloriously completing what he had begun." (msg)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Dear Heavenly Father, thank you for giving us life and in such abundance. We trust you, for you are the God of the living and did not withhold your only begotten son so that the world might be saved through him. Lord I pray that you shine your light into our dark places, where we stubbornly cling to the relics of dead things in our old lives, like unsatisfied grudges, resentment against betrayers and injured pride. Lord, purify our hearts in your holy fire and consume our sins in your perfect grace, raise us to life anew each day in the perfect faith of Christ that conquers all adversity that we may overcome and be cleansed and healed. In Jesus' mighty name, Amen.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Heavenly Father, thank you for giving us life and in such abundance. We trust you, for you are the God of the living and did not withhold your only begotten son so that the world might be saved through him. Lord I pray that you shine your light into our dark places, where we stubbornly cling to the relics of dead things in our old lives, like unsatisfied grudges, resentment against betrayers and injured pride. Lord, purify our hearts in your holy fire and consume our sins in your perfect grace, raise us to life anew each day in the perfect faith of Christ that conquers all adversity that we may overcome and be cleansed and healed. In Jesus' mighty name, Amen.

Dear Ben: I will join with you in this cry to our Abba. May His holy fire engulf us within Himself!

 

[FineLinen]

“Who could have peace in the Christian hope while overwhelmed with the consciousness that many of those dearest to us are even right now shrieking hopelessly for watery relief from fiery torments? If any can be happy under such a burden of woe, are they hardened to insensibility; or do they really take their creed seriously?

Do believers in eternal hell torment really believe it, in their careless unconcern for the unsaved, or do they just give formal and thoughtless assent to their creeds. A sincere contemplation of such an infinite spectacle of woe as they present about hell is enough to unseat the reason of every believer of it if it weighs on his mind as it should if true. It would be appalling to know the number of all those who thought they had committed ‘the unpardonable sin,’ another erroneous tradition, and that they were hopelessly hell-bound because of it, and as a result became maniacs and suicides.

Yet in utter disregard of the frightful results of their hideous pagan ideas, the eternal hell torment evangelists would like to unchristianize those of us who dare to question their views by turning the searchlight of truth on their errors.

After hell is ended in the lake of fire, where can the previous inhabitants of hell go?

Not back to hell, for it then will be no more. Not back into death, for ‘there shall be no more death.’ Only one destiny will be possible for them, and that is the one declared in Is. 26:9, and that is correction through judgment.” -J.W. Williams-

 

[Der Alte]

“Who could have peace in the Christian hope while overwhelmed with the consciousness that many of those dearest to us are even right now shrieking hopelessly for watery relief from fiery torments? If any can be happy under such a burden of woe, are they hardened to insensibility; or do they really take their creed seriously?
Do believers in eternal hell torment really believe it, in their careless unconcern for the unsaved, or do they just give formal and thoughtless assent to their creeds. A sincere contemplation of such an infinite spectacle of woe as they present about hell is enough to unseat the reason of every believer of it if it weighs on his mind as it should if true. It would be appalling to know the number of all those who thought they had committed ‘the unpardonable sin,’ another erroneous tradition, and that they were hopelessly hell-bound because of it, and as a result became maniacs and suicides.
Yet in utter disregard of the frightful results of their hideous pagan ideas, the eternal hell torment evangelists would like to unchristianize those of us who dare to question their views by turning the searchlight of truth on their errors.
After hell is ended in the lake of fire, where can the previous inhabitants of hell go?
Not back to hell, for it then will be no more. Not back into death, for ‘there shall be no more death.’ Only one destiny will be possible for them, and that is the one declared in Is. 26:9, and that is correction through judgment.” -J.W. Williams-

We must never allow the authority of books, institutions, or leaders to replace the authority of knowing Jesus Christ personally and directly. When the religious views of others interpose between us and the primary experience of Jesus as the Christ, we become unconvicted and unpersuasive travel agents handing out brochures to places we have never visited."