The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

[Dkh587]

I continue to marvel at your amazing ability to excuse yourself of any intellectual wrongdoing, and then, putting the onus on your opponents.

I’m glad I’m not the only one who notices it. He does exactly what he accuses others of.

 

[Der Alte]

I continue to marvel at your amazing ability to excuse yourself of any intellectual wrongdoing, and then, putting the onus on your opponents.

...

I’m glad I’m not the only one who notices it. He does exactly what he accuses others of.

I responded to LS', now your, specious objection but neither of you has refuted my response.
Please show me how me quoting the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud is an "Appeal to authority." I proved that what LS quoted was an Appeal to authority from a text book from a major University.
And OBTW most of your "quotes" are logical fallacies, "Appeal to authority." You quote something give the name and expect everybody to accept it because the person quoted is considered an expert.
Here is an example of me making a logical fallacy, appeal to authority, the way you do.

The word aiōnios (from aiōn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have “ages of ages” (aiōnes tōn aiōnōn). A.T. Robertson​

Is this going to convince you that aionios mean eternal? Neither do your appeal to authority quotes convince anyone.

 

[mmksparbud]

The deplorable idea of a father who torments his children for any amount of time makes me exclaim "away with him."

The Father of all fathers, whom we worship, is worthy of praise. He does all things well. His Name is dearest Daddy, Abba Father.

LOL!! For any amount of time???----But it is OK for Him to torture them until they submit to His will---what you call "refining in the fire"---You think refining in the fire is painless then? That is still fire and it will hurt---it is torture until they submit. You can dance around this all you want---you still are sayi8ng He tortures until they give in. However, nowhere in the bible says anyone comes out of the lake of fire into eternal life with Christ. This is nothing but the same lie that Satan told to Eve---
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

When Noah preached that God would destroy the world with a flood---no one believed Him. When they saw the animals coming into the ark---that should have been a clue---they still did not listen---God's not going to kill anybody with water. Noah built the ark, the animals were smart enough to come into the ark, the people were not and --- YES, THEY ALL DIED! As in the days of Noah.....they did not get a 2nd chance after the rain started. There will be no 2nd chance when they are in the lake of fire.

 

[FineLinen]

LOL!! For any amount of time???----But it is OK for Him to torture them until they submit to His will---what you call "refining in the fire"---You think refining in the fire is painless then? That is still fire and it will hurt---it is torture until they submit. You can dance around this all you want---you still are sayi8ng He tortures until they give in. However, nowhere in the bible says anyone comes out of the lake of fire into eternal life with Christ. This is nothing but the same lie that Satan told to Eve---
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

When Noah preached that God would destroy the world with a flood---no one believed Him. When they saw the animals coming into the ark---that should have been a clue---they still did not listen---God's not going to kill anybody with water. Noah built the ark, the animals were smart enough to come into the ark, the people were not and --- YES, THEY ALL DIED! As in the days of Noah.....they did not get a 2nd chance after the rain started. There will be no 2nd chance when they are in the lake of fire.

The Father chastens, He corrects, He transforms into His image and His will by at-one-ment. Everything but everything is to His satisfaction & our good as His children!

Again: there is no chance in God! None!

The preacher of righteousness Noah had 0% success rate in his preaching. The entire lot was wiped out minus eight.

The Last Adam preached to these wiped out disobedient rascals: success rate 100%.

 

[FineLinen]

Noah was indeed a preacher of righteousness. The net result of his preaching = zero. The risen Christ preaching to the dead = 100% success!.

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

Zoe is rooted in zaō.

Zoe =

Zoe - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

zaō =

Life, live, quick in the Bible (127 verses). Greek: ζάω, zaō, G2198

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -Rotherham Emphasized-

Dead=

nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

Breathed his last/ lifeless.

Deceased/ departed.

Destitute of life/ without life.

Inanimate.

Disobedient= apeitheo=

Not to allow one’s self to be persuaded.

To refuse or withhold belief & obedience.

To refuse belief and obedience.

Not to comply with.

Live= zao=

To be alive with resurrection life.

 

[mmksparbud]

The Father chastens, He corrects, He transforms into His image and His will by at-one-ment. Everything but everything is to His satisfaction & our good as His children!

Again: there is no chance in God! None!

The preacher of righteousness Noah had 0% success rate in his preaching. The entire lot was wiped out minus eight.

The Last Adam preached to these wiped out disobedient rascals: success rate 100%.

+

You have a habit of not answering questions---Are you then OK with God torturing until they submit in the fire?

 

[FineLinen]

"I wouldn’t wish eternal torment either on the person who hates me most or the person whom I hate most. And God has got to be at least as good as I am!" -Fellow friend Paidion-

The entire ghastly dogma of unending torture & the concept of annihilation, are the outcome of accepting God unable to accomplish what He set out to do as Author & finish it.

Unending evil wins, the Author & Finisher loses?

 

[mmksparbud]

"I wouldn’t wish eternal torment either on the person who hates me most or the person whom I hate most. And God has got to be at least as good as I am!" -Fellow friend Paidion-

The entire ghastly dogma of unending torture & the concept of annihilation, are the outcome of accepting God unable to accomplish what He set out to do as Author & finish it.

Unending evil wins, the Author & Finisher loses?

That still doesn't answer my question, does it?
Are you then OK with God torturing until they submit in the fire?

 

[Lazarus Short]

LOL!! For any amount of time???----But it is OK for Him to torture them until they submit to His will---what you call "refining in the fire"---You think refining in the fire is painless then? That is still fire and it will hurt---it is torture until they submit. You can dance around this all you want---you still are sayi8ng He tortures until they give in. However, nowhere in the bible says anyone comes out of the lake of fire into eternal life with Christ. This is nothing but the same lie that Satan told to Eve---
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

When Noah preached that God would destroy the world with a flood---no one believed Him. When they saw the animals coming into the ark---that should have been a clue---they still did not listen---God's not going to kill anybody with water. Noah built the ark, the animals were smart enough to come into the ark, the people were not and --- YES, THEY ALL DIED! As in the days of Noah.....they did not get a 2nd chance after the rain started. There will be no 2nd chance when they are in the lake of fire.

Item: Our position is not the same as the serpent telling Eve that she would not surely die. The Bible is clear that only those alive when the Savior appears as King will "not surely die."

Item: Does God really torture? After an extensive word study, I have concluded that all the fire in the Bible which is not natural fire is Godfire. The Lake of Fire is Godfire. Those in it get a full and personal dose of Godfire, but I doubt it will be pleasant, and who of us will not need some refining? I'm certain I do. The Bible says, "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby." - Hebrews 12:11, KJV

 

[mmksparbud]

Item: Our position is not the same as the serpent telling Eve that she would not surely die. The Bible is clear that only those alive when the Savior appears as King will "not surely die."

Item: Does God really torture? After an extensive word study, I have concluded that all the fire in the Bible which is not natural fire is Godfire. The Lake of Fire is Godfire. Those in it get a full and personal dose of Godfire, but I doubt it will be pleasant, and who of us will not need some refining? I'm certain I do. The Bible says, "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby." - Hebrews 12:11, KJV

Of course it is God fire!! It is totally destroys what is not protected by the blood of Christ.

Deu_4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Deu_9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
2Ki_1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
2Ki_1:12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
Rev_20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Job_1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Eze_20:47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.
Eze_28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

What you are describing is the chastening of the Lord's righteous. In this life we are going to have trials and tribulations, these are a refining fire to us and bring us closer to God. To the wicked these things only make them hate God. And the end will be what they want it to be---the devouring, consuming fire of the Lord that does not refine, but destroys. There are only 2 choices that must be made before He comes.

Mat_12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

God is not going to force anyone to submit to Him. It is eternal life, or eternal death. Not eternal torture---but eternal death.

 

[Lazarus Short]

God is not going to force anyone to submit to Him. It is eternal life, or eternal death. Not eternal torture---but eternal death.

Again...if death is eternal, how is Death defeated? Your Bible and mine say it will be, but if anyone is still dead and/or in Hell, then Death cannot be defeated. Hint: anyone who is annihilated is still dead. When will you give me an answer that does not violate logic and common sense? Saying that it just means "no more death" will not qualify as an answer.

 

[mmksparbud]

Again...if death is eternal, how is Death defeated? Your Bible and mine say it will be, but if anyone is still dead and/or in Hell, then Death cannot be defeated. Hint: anyone who is annihilated is still dead. When will you give me an answer that does not violate logic and common sense? Saying that it just means "no more death" will not qualify as an answer.

I find it difficult to comprehend that you can not comprehend that when no one, human or animal ever again dies, how that is not defeating death? It is ludicrous to me that the end of death, to you is not the end of Death!! No one dies any more---why isn't that plain enough? There will be no more sin. There will be no more sinners. As long as there are sinners, there is sin. The end of death is that no one ever dies again---it's not rocket science!! What is eternal life? It is to live and breathe and eat and drink and interact with friends, family and God---the opposite is to have none of those things! It is to cease to exist. To continue on would not be to cease to exist, it would be eternal life and that is given only to the saved. How can my 9 year old grand nephew see it and you not? Are you kidding? Saying that no more death is not an answer is beyond failing to comprehend.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I find it difficult to comprehend that you can not comprehend that when no one, human or animal ever again dies, how that is not defeating death? It is ludicrous to me that the end of death, to you is not the end of Death!! No one dies any more---why isn't that plain enough? There will be no more sin. There will be no more sinners. As long as there are sinners, there is sin. The end of death is that no one ever dies again---it's not rocket science!! What is eternal life? It is to live and breathe and eat and drink and interact with friends, family and God---the opposite is to have none of those things! It is to cease to exist. To continue on would not be to cease to exist, it would be eternal life and that is given only to the saved. How can my 9 year old grand nephew see it and you not? Are you kidding? Saying that no more death is not an answer is beyond failing to comprehend.

Good times...but they're still dead. I am just as amazed that you cannot comprehend it. The dead, the reduced-to-ashes, the annihilated: dead, dead, dead, with Death giggling in the background...

Impasse.

 

[FineLinen]

Facing the Problem

Are you at peace regarding the eternal destiny of your children, parents, brothers, sisters, and grandparents? Are you experiencing abundant joy in your “personal” salvation while unsure if some of your dearest loved ones might suffer throughout eternity? How is that possible if you really love them as much as you love yourself? You see, we Christians have a problem, a very serious problem. The problem is our belief that hell is “eternal” and that most of humanity will suffer endlessly. Deep inside we know something is not right, but we suppress our questions and doubts because we “think” the Bible teaches it. What inner conflict rages within us! It is futile to find satisfying answers to the problems this issue raises.

https://www.hopebeyondhell.net/

 

[mmksparbud]

Good times...but they're still dead. I am just as amazed that you cannot comprehend it. The dead, the reduced-to-ashes, the annihilated: dead, dead, dead, with Death giggling in the background...

Impasse.

Yah---dead, dead, dead,----never to hurt anyone ever again. No one will be giggling in the background----we will be praising the Lord throughout eternity for it!

 

[FineLinen]

"Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable; He did not come to improve the improvable; He did not come to reform the reformable. None of those things works. -Robert F. Capon-

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

 

[Der Alte]

Again...if death is eternal, how is Death defeated? Your Bible and mine say it will be, but if anyone is still dead and/or in Hell, then Death cannot be defeated. Hint: anyone who is annihilated is still dead. When will you give me an answer that does not violate logic and common sense? Saying that it just means "no more death" will not qualify as an answer.

Revelation 21:4-8 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

This is one continuous narrative. Although God said "there shall be no more death, vs. 4 and "I make all things new" vs. 5, " In vs. 8 eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire which is still the "second death." Vs. 7 is conditional, "He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.'" The converse of this is "He that does not overcome shall not inherit all things and I will not be his God."

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. ​

 

[Lazarus Short]

Revelation 21:4-8 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

This is one continuous narrative. Although God said "there shall be no more death, vs. 4 and "I make all things new" vs. 5, " In vs. 8 eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire which is still the "second death." Vs. 7 is conditional, "He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.'" The converse of this is "He that does not overcome shall not inherit all things and I will not be his God."

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. ​

Again, you refuse to move past the Revelation.

 

[mmksparbud]

"Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable; He did not come to improve the improvable; He did not come to reform the reformable. None of those things works. -Robert F. Capon-

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
This is not talking about Jesus preaching to the dead. He preached (through Noah) to the disobedient in the days of Noah, while Noah was making the ark. And still, only 8 were saved. God was long suffering with them, He waited 120 years before sending the flood.
Spirits is used often just to mean a person, or persons, not just dead ones. Baptism is being compared to the flood, the washing away of evil. The verses before this are talking about suffering for the Lord and not for our sins. And Jesus was put to death for our sins, but raised by the Holy Spirit unto life.
1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the
flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Gospel is preached to the dead----the dead in spirit, the dead in sin!! Not to corpses!

 

[FineLinen]

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -Rotherham Emphasized-

Dead=

nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

Breathed his last/ lifeless.

Deceased/ departed.

Destitute of life/ without life.

Inanimate.