The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

Saint Steven

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When you call it just paper and ink.

When you imply there are more doctrines not written.
When you post Albrecht and his crystalnacht message.
Once again blowing everything I say out of proportion.
I don't say scripture is JUST paper and ink.
Not sure what doctrines I am IMPLYING. ???
The main point with Albrecht was the statement that the Bible is NOT the "Word of God". (Jesus is)

Saint Steven said:
Since when do I "denigrate" scripture?
 
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Saint Steven

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No I am not grouping you with them. You are dodging the question. They believe with conscience and discernment. Are they wrong to you? And if so what do you base their wrongness on? Please answer the question.

When you answer this we can move on, but until then this is the fourth time I have asked and you have avoided answering.
As I said, it is a loaded question. You are making all sorts of wrong assumptions and inferences. I will not be a party to answering your ridiculous post.

I DO NOT SUPPORT THE MORMONS AND THE JWs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Got it?

Try rephrasing the question WITHOUT all the false accusations.

Saint Steven said:
More loaded questions. You are grouping me with the Mormons and JWs. Thus inferring that I am part of a cult for using my spiritual discernment and conscience?

Seriously?
And you insist that I answer you? That's completely bogus.
 
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Der Alte

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Once again blowing everything I say out of proportion.
I don't say scripture is JUST paper and ink.
Not sure what doctrines I am IMPLYING. ???
The main point with Albrecht was the statement that the Bible is NOT the "Word of God". (Jesus is)
Saint Steven said:
Since when do I "denigrate" scripture?
That is what it looked like to me, i.e. that you were dismissing all written scripture for your own discernment.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Instead of giving invalid advice and making invalid assumptions perhaps you should read your Bible. God's plan was for the whole house of Israel and Judah, when God brought the nation Israel out of Egypt some rebelled against Him a number of times. But God did not destroy all of Israel only those involved in the rebellions. Those involved in the disobedience and rebellion who were not immediately killed by God died off while Israel wandered around the desert and wilderness. Only those born after the rebellions were allowed to enter the promised land. See e.g. Deuteronomy 1:35-36
So the whole house of Israel and Judah did not rebel those who did were not shown mercy and pity only an obedient remnant were spared.

I gave no advice and my assumptions are not invalid. You clarify, but for the most part you repeat what I said. I suppose that makes it correct.
 
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Der Alte

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I gave no advice and my assumptions are not invalid. You clarify, but for the most part you repeat what I said. I suppose that makes it correct.
You assumed that God said in Jer 13 said that the whole house of Israel and Judah disobeyed Him and that He would not have mercy, etc on all of Judah and Israel, when I corrected your misunderstanding you now waffle. Tsk tsk.
 
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Lazarus Short

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We misunderstand each other, but given our differences, that's understandable...

I happen to know that God did not destroy the whole bunch, as I said in my post #899 - so I did not assume anything. You read too much into others' posts.
 
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nolidad

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Do not be too smug, for the apostle Paul writes of the unsearchable riches of God. I express it a bit differently, that the things of God are a vast ocean, into which we have only just dipped our toes...

Not being smug- but honest. When we have clear unambiguous writing on the lines- when someone comes up with contradictory statements form "between the lines", it is false doctrine.

Not smug or attacking anyone or trying to condemn anyone- I just tend to be honestly blunt!
 
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Lazarus Short

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Not being smug- but honest. When we have clear unambiguous writing on the lines- when someone comes up with contradictory statements form "between the lines", it is false doctrine.

Not smug or attacking anyone or trying to condemn anyone- I just tend to be honestly blunt!

Check, but keep in mind that Jesus the Christ told His disciples that He had more to tell them, but they could not bear it at that time. I suppose some still can't, and I don't care to elevate myself from the "not bear it" group.
 
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nolidad

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Check, but keep in mind that Jesus the Christ told His disciples that He had more to tell them, but they could not bear it at that time. I suppose some still can't, and I don't care to elevate myself from the "not bear it" group.

And He also said the Spirit would bring ot mind all things He taught them.

So are you implying that there was new doctrine not written down and it can contradict what is written down? You know what I am asking- why are you dodging?
 
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nolidad

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As I said, it is a loaded question. You are making all sorts of wrong assumptions and inferences. I will not be a party to answering your ridiculous post.

I DO NOT SUPPORT THE MORMONS AND THE JWs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Got it?

Try rephrasing the question WITHOUT all the false accusations.

Saint Steven said:
More loaded questions. You are grouping me with the Mormons and JWs. Thus inferring that I am part of a cult for using my spiritual discernment and conscience?

Seriously?
And you insist that I answer you? That's completely bogus.

Thank You for inally answering my simple unloaded question! It wasn't hard after all!

I made no accusations! I simply asked you a question. If you thought I was accusing, then the problem lies within you, for I was not accusing you.

But now let me ask the next question in this line.

They believe and believe they have a good conscience and discernment? So why do you disagree with them? what is the foundational authority you use to disagree with them?
 
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nolidad

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Once again blowing everything I say out of proportion.
I don't say scripture is JUST paper and ink.
Not sure what doctrines I am IMPLYING. ???
The main point with Albrecht was the statement that the Bible is NOT the "Word of God". (Jesus is)

Saint Steven said:
Since when do I "denigrate" scripture?

But we call the Bible the Word of God for it is the preserved inspired words of God given to the Prophets and Apostles etc. But you know this, and you know I know that Jesus is called the Word of God as well. I am confident you are smaret enough to know which one is which when spoken by nearly all believers.

If you buy into Fine lInens reading between th elines and Albrechts claim the bible is looking at God through a broken glass with smudges and cultural stuff ( I forget the exact quote) then you are denigrating SCripture for things not written.
 
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Lazarus Short

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And He also said the Spirit would bring ot mind all things He taught them.

So are you implying that there was new doctrine not written down and it can contradict what is written down? You know what I am asking- why are you dodging?

I dodged nothing - I was making a mention. I don't expect Jesus the Christ to contradict Himself. We, not He, are the problem. Anyway, He was telling them about things He had NOT yet taught them. Does the Calculus contradict the Algebra? No, but the student of Algebra is probably not yet ready for the Calculus...
 
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nolidad

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I dodged nothing - I was making a mention. I don't expect Jesus the Christ to contradict Himself. We, not He, are the problem. Anyway, He was telling them about things He had NOT yet taught them. Does the Calculus contradict the Algebra? No, but the student of Algebra is probably not yet ready for the Calculus...

You know what I am asking and youi understand th equestion. YOu are not an ignorant brute! Why do you refuse to give a simple answer to a simple question but feel required to play this linguistic dodgeball?

If you cannot answer a simple question that only needs a yes or not- never mind algebra- you may not be ready for fractions.
 
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FineLinen

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The ghastly dogma of unending torment is an insult to our Father! !

There are numerous sins, but the one most grievous and requiring a couple of ages to remedy is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, (iow) calling evil good & good evil.

"eis ton aiona" forgiveness demands ages - demands a period indefinitely long. Our Lord's words reveal this ghastly sin as one of confounding good and evil & ascribing to the one the works of the other.

Endless torment can only be inflicted by an evil being on his own children!
 
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Lazarus Short

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You know what I am asking and youi understand th equestion. YOu are not an ignorant brute! Why do you refuse to give a simple answer to a simple question but feel required to play this linguistic dodgeball?

If you cannot answer a simple question that only needs a yes or not- never mind algebra- you may not be ready for fractions.

OK - WHAT is your question? I'm thinking you only thought you had asked me a question, but I could be wrong. Looking at your post, I think this "ignorant brute" can at least spell, so get off your soapbox, please.
 
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mmksparbud

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The ghastly dogma of unending torment is an insult to our Father! !

There are numerous sins, but the one most grievous and requiring a couple of ages to remedy is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, (iow) calling evil good & good evil.

"eis ton aiona" forgiveness demands ages - demands a period indefinitely long. Our Lord's words reveal this ghastly sin as one of confounding good and evil & ascribing to the one the works of the other.

Endless torment can only be inflicted by an evil being on his own children!

That is the only thing we do agree on.
But that you do read falsehood into what is "between the lines", of that there is also no doubt.

Jud_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Obviously Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning, but they are most definitely -- dead. Those cities are set forth as an example of how sinners will end up.

As in the days of Noah---God pleaded for 120 years with the people through Noah. But
in the end---only 8 were saved. Only 8. The rest perished---dead.
I do not speak to those who are determined to be in contradiction to the word of God---but to those who are possibly thinking Universalism might be right----It is Not. They have admitted there is not one verse anywhere in the bible that states anyone comes out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with God. Not one.

It is only the saved---those that the blood of Jesus has covered their sins---that will be able to live in the presence of God.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

God is a consuming fire to the sinner. No sinful man can see His face and live.

2Ki_1:12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
Eze_20:47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.
Eze_28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Rev_20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Hell fire is being in the presence of God without the protecting blood of Jesus.

That must be chosen before death. Again: There is not one verse that anyone comes out of the lake of fire to live with God.

To deny that all sinners will perish is to deny the sovereignty of God to do as He has said. These people read the word "all" when it means all the saved. Every knee shall bow and acknowledge that God is sovereign and He is just. That is everyone---all lost and saved. The lost can do nothing else. Even guilty men in this world have acknowledged the fact that the penalty handed down to them, including the death penalty, has been the right one and they deserve it. Satan and all His followers all see God in His unveiled glory and they must acknowledge that He is God---the Holy Spirit is not needed for this admission. There is nothing else they can say! It is not forced out of them, it is reality.
There are only 2 resurrections. The resurrection unto eternal life---and the resurrection unto eternal death---the 2nd death, a death from which there will be no one to call them awake.

Joh_5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

There is no 3rd resurrection. The 2nd death is eternal death. No awakening from it. What God says always comes to pass. His word is sure. He spoke a world into existence---He is sovereign and His will will be done. Not the imaginations of those who teach that the lost will be saved from the lake of fire and live with God---God never said it---it will never happen. Don't be lead astray! It is a false doctrine!
 
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FineLinen

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That is the only thing we do agree on.
But that you do read falsehood into what is "between the lines", of that there is also no doubt.

Jud_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Obviously Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning, but they are most definitely -- dead. Those cities are set forth as an example of how sinners will end up.

As in the days of Noah---God pleaded for 120 years with the people through Noah. But
in the end---only 8 were saved. Only 8. The rest perished---dead.
I do not speak to those who are determined to be in contradiction to the word of God---but to those who are possibly thinking Universalism might be right----It is Not. They have admitted there is not one verse anywhere in the bible that states anyone comes out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with God. Not one.

It is only the saved---those that the blood of Jesus has covered their sins---that will be able to live in the presence of God.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

God is a consuming fire to the sinner. No sinful man can see His face and live.

2Ki_1:12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
Eze_20:47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.
Eze_28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Rev_20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Hell fire is being in the presence of God without the protecting blood of Jesus.

That must be chosen before death. Again: There is not one verse that anyone comes out of the lake of fire to live with God.

To deny that all sinners will perish is to deny the sovereignty of God to do as He has said. These people read the word "all" when it means all the saved. Every knee shall bow and acknowledge that God is sovereign and He is just. That is everyone---all lost and saved. The lost can do nothing else. Even guilty men in this world have acknowledged the fact that the penalty handed down to them, including the death penalty, has been the right one and they deserve it. Satan and all His followers all see God in His unveiled glory and they must acknowledge that He is God---the Holy Spirit is not needed for this admission. There is nothing else they can say! It is not forced out of them, it is reality.
There are only 2 resurrections. The resurrection unto eternal life---and the resurrection unto eternal death---the 2nd death, a death from which there will be no one to call them awake.

Joh_5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

There is no 3rd resurrection. The 2nd death is eternal death. No awakening from it. What God says always comes to pass. His word is sure. He spoke a world into existence---He is sovereign and His will will be done. Not the imaginations of those who teach that the lost will be saved from the lake of fire and live with God---God never said it---it will never happen. Don't be lead astray! It is a false doctrine!

Dear Lady: There are precisely two (2) references to the word "eternal" in Scripture. The word is aidios and is ONLY in reference to God who alone is eternal.

The Lake of Fire is the Lake of Theos. The predominant element of the Lake is theion and theioo, the incense of Theos (AKA brimstone). All that God is as the consuming fire has dramatic results, nothing touches Him & remains unchanged!

The lost are only lost until found by the Shepherd who loses nothing, not pieces of fish & bread, and most assuredly the broken sinners of Adam for whom He is the Mercy-Seat!

The white spaces between the lines are the Realm of Spirit & life, and part of the many things the Master could not speak to His disciples because "you are not able to bear them". That situation can only be changed by the invasion of the Holy Spirit by the revelation of the One who discloses Himself in the white segments of His glory.
 
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FineLinen

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Our God is a consuming Fire

Fire Is A Beneficent Agent

How shallow is the common view of “fire” as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of…

“Life”…Isa. 4:5

“Purification”…Matt. 3:3

“Atonement”…Lev. 16:27

“Transformation”…2 Pet. 3:10

And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God’s fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.

Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, “aflame to the very tips of our fingers.” And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.

Fire Is The Sign Of God’s Being

And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.

Fire is the sign, not of God’s wrath, but of His being.

When God comes to Ezekiel there is a “fire unfolding itself” (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and “the appearance of fire.” (Ezek. 8:2)

Christ’s eyes are a flame of “fire” (Rev. 1:14).

The seven lamps of “fire” are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said “to go before God,” His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God’s ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4…Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.

Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome

It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes–call it, if you please, a paradox–in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, “Thy God is a consuming Fire,” and “Thy God is a merciful God” (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)–words full of significance.

So Isaiah tells us of God’s cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)–suggestive words. And, so again, “By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh.” (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by “fire.” (Mal. 3:2).

Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?

Let us note, also, how often “fire” is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in “fire:” God answers Gideon by “fire;” and David by “fire.” (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by “fire;” and in “fire” Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of “fire.” So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by “fire.” (Psl. 18:6-8)

And by the pillar of “fire” God gave His law. And in “fire” the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."

Fire Is The Portion Of All

These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that “fire,” like judgment, so far from being the sinner’s portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God’s judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is “already kindled,” always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. “I am come to send fire on the earth,” for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the “fire is to try every man’s work.” He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned “so as by fire,” by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.

The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, “He that is near Me is near fire,” expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work “like a refiner’s fire.” And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that “our God is a consuming Fire,” i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but “Our God is a consuming Fire”–a consuming Fire, “by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed.”

When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that “coals of fire” go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are “coals of fire” to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious “fires” of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner’s doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these “fires” not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise–

"Behold, I make all things new."

-Christ Triumphant-
 
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mmksparbud

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Dear Lady: There are precisely two (2) references to the word "eternal" in Scripture. The word is aidios and is ONLY in reference to God who alone is eternal.

The Lake of Fire is the Lake of Theos. The predominant element of the Lake is theion and theioo, the incense of Theos (AKA brimstone). All that God is as the consuming fire has dramatic results, nothing touches Him & remains unchanged!

The lost are only lost until found by the Shepherd who loses nothing, not pieces of fish & bread, and most assuredly the broken sinners of Adam for whom He is the Mercy-Seat!

The white spaces between the lines are the Realm of Spirit & life, and part of the many things the Master could not speak to His disciples because "you are not able to bear them". That situation can only be changed by the invasion of the Holy Spirit by the revelation of the One who discloses Himself in the white segments of His glory.
Our God is a consuming Fire

Fire Is A Beneficent Agent

How shallow is the common view of “fire” as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of…

“Life”…Isa. 4:5

“Purification”…Matt. 3:3

“Atonement”…Lev. 16:27

“Transformation”…2 Pet. 3:10

And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God’s fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.

Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, “aflame to the very tips of our fingers.” And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.

Fire Is The Sign Of God’s Being

And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.

Fire is the sign, not of God’s wrath, but of His being.

When God comes to Ezekiel there is a “fire unfolding itself” (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and “the appearance of fire.” (Ezek. 8:2)

Christ’s eyes are a flame of “fire” (Rev. 1:14).

The seven lamps of “fire” are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said “to go before God,” His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God’s ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4…Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.

Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome

It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes–call it, if you please, a paradox–in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, “Thy God is a consuming Fire,” and “Thy God is a merciful God” (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)–words full of significance.

So Isaiah tells us of God’s cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)–suggestive words. And, so again, “By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh.” (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by “fire.” (Mal. 3:2).

Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?

Let us note, also, how often “fire” is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in “fire:” God answers Gideon by “fire;” and David by “fire.” (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by “fire;” and in “fire” Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of “fire.” So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by “fire.” (Psl. 18:6-8)

And by the pillar of “fire” God gave His law. And in “fire” the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."

Fire Is The Portion Of All

These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that “fire,” like judgment, so far from being the sinner’s portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God’s judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is “already kindled,” always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. “I am come to send fire on the earth,” for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the “fire is to try every man’s work.” He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned “so as by fire,” by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.

The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, “He that is near Me is near fire,” expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work “like a refiner’s fire.” And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that “our God is a consuming Fire,” i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but “Our God is a consuming Fire”–a consuming Fire, “by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed.”

When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that “coals of fire” go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are “coals of fire” to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious “fires” of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner’s doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these “fires” not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise–

"Behold, I make all things new."

-Christ Triumphant-

As I said, I am not here to debate with you. In the first place you guys do not debate. To whatever statement we make, or whatever verses we quote, you guys do not answer those statements or quotes. You quote statements and quotes from men who believe as you do and that in no way address what has been said. God has made His will known. You, of course do not have to accept His word as the final authority, and instead follow the believes of men who obviously have no knowledge of the written word and anyone who apposes God's sovereignty, does not have the Holy Spirit and what they say is not from God. I write to those who think you might have truth---you do not and your dictionaries have been found totally erroneous and there is simply nothing that you say that should be believed. That is why, most of the time, you end up speaking mostly to yourselves. Nothing more to say for now.
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
Dear Saint: It boggles what little mind I have left how any person can possibly believe that the Love God can torment His children for ever and ever. It is a ghastly dogma!
It totally boggles my mind why would Jesus use language such as "eternal punishment" which would have meant exactly what it says to 1st century Jewish minds and only 2000 years later people are trying to say "aionios" does not mean eternal and "kolasis" does not mean punishment.
Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"
• (Second Clement ibid., 17:7)
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’".
Ignatius of Antioch[a student of John]
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments"
• (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
• The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"
• (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
Irenaeus[Student of Polycarp a student of John]
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"
• (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. … Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).


 
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