The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

Der Alte

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Here you go, for the second or third time.
Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
The word translated "might be Lord," κυριευση/kurieuse, is in the subjunctive mood, the mood of possibility and potentiality it may or may not happen. IOW it ain't a done deal in all cases. See e.g. Rom 10:9 if one does not believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead they will not be saved and Jesus will not be their Lord..

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Note this verse there is a condition "If you declare," the converse is "If you do not declare with your mouth etc. you will not be saved.
Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
The word exomologeo occurs eleven time in the NT it never means "whole heartedly."
.....When the enemies of Jesus are made His footstool Psalms 110:1, Matthew 22:44, Luke 20:43, Acts of the Apostles 2:35, Hebrews 1:13 and He places His foot on their necks, Joshua 10:22-24, when it is too late they will be declaring that Jesus is Lord.
 
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FineLinen

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See I fully accept the love god on mankind- but I also fully accept Gods holiness and perfect justice that are also attributes of Him...

“Judgment without mercy”=

“For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.”

Justice -George MacDonald-

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice

“Also unto You, O Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work.”

Some of the translators make it kindness and goodness; but I presume there is no real difference among them as to the character of the word which here, in the English Bible, is translated mercy.

The religious mind, however, educated upon the theories yet prevailing in the so-called religious world, must here recognize a departure from the presentation to which they have been accustomed: to make the psalm speak according to prevalent theoretic modes, the verse would have to be changed thus:–

To You, oh Lord, belongs justice, for You render to every man according to his work.

If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?

If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7)

As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38)

Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer?

Can that be just which is not merciful?

Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand?

Can that be merciful which is not just?
 
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FineLinen

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Dr. E.L. Martin Phd.

Justice


Suppose you ran a stop light with your automobile and were apprehended by the police. When brought before the judge, he fined you $50 or five days in jail. The wages of your particular "sin" (in this case) was $50. But let us suppose you had no money in your pocket to pay the fine. If so, you would then be liable to spend the five days in jail.

"And the judge [shall] deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto you [said Christ], thou shall by no means come out thence, till thou has paid the uttermost farthing."

• Against Celsus, 6:26

Every part of the sentence rendered by the judge must be met in full!

However, let us say you had a friend who accompanied you to court and that he had that amount of cash on him. He took the $50 out of his wallet and paid your fine in full. Since he did this for you, you would be able to walk out of the court with your penalty fully met. But only if the complete amount were given to the clerk of the court would you be free. The Bible, as shown in the quote by Christ given above, supports the legitimacy of this example even in the sense of divine judgment. The point is: someone else paid your debt for you, but the person had to pay for your debt to society in full.

Let us now give an example of a more serious crime — say a felony was committed. The judge might say the wages of such a "sin" is twenty years in prison. In this case it would not be possible in our Western courts for some friend to take your place and go to prison for you (nor would a simple monetary fine be allowable), but the theological teaching of the Bible would permit a person to take your place. This may seem absurd on the surface, but it is nevertheless true.

The Bible, in the matter of paying the penalty for sins against the Deity [not, however, against man], allows for vicarious payment. That is what the law of offering animals for sins was all about. The animal paid the penalty (in a symbolic way) instead of the person (Leviticus 16:30, 34). This, of course, would not be sanctioned in our modern courts, but suppose the judge said "twenty years" and a person were legally able to represent the felon. If so, the substitute would have to meet the full penalty of the law, "until the uttermost farthing be paid."

Let us now go a step beyond the example of a felony and say a person had committed the crime of murder. The judge might then say the wages of such a "sin" was death in the electric chair. Again, our modern courts would not allow a person to take another’s place in the punishment, but the Bible authorizes such things from a theological point of view. As a matter of fact, this is exactly what Christ did for each of us. He died for us — in our place.

The wages of sin (our sins) is death, and that is precisely what Christ did for us. "In due time Christ died for the ungodly" (Romans 5:6). Christ paid the exact and full penalty which all people have accrued to themselves because of their sins. The punishment is death.
 
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Saint Steven

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I still await your evidence that the "western church" mistranslated the Scriptures with a bias, and I await your evidence proving they were "l;ying scribes". So far all you have doen is make unfounded accusations.
Why bring this up now? You were agreement earlier on this page.

nolidad said:
You accuse the West church of a biased translation. I tend to agree with you! The vulgate was heavily influenced by Augustinian philosophy. But you need to show that eternal torment is a claim added to the Scripture and not just make an accusation without facts!
 
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Saint Steven

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Our sins nailed him there. Rome was just teh tool used to place him there so He would be punished for us by God the Father!
You are claiming that God the Father "punished" his son Jesus? (for what?)
No wonder you aren't concerned about hell.
 
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Saint Steven

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Fine linen seems to be lost in their own pseudo pious language. I choose to ignore them.
Say what? - lol

What is this she and they business? (he's a he) he, he, he - lol
 
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Saint Steven

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Why bring this up now? You were agreement earlier on this page.

nolidad said:
You accuse the West church of a biased translation. I tend to agree with you! The vulgate was heavily influenced by Augustinian philosophy. But you need to show that eternal torment is a claim added to the Scripture and not just make an accusation without facts!
Maybe he's brown-nosing DA ??? - lol
(I mean Augustine. Who did you think I was talking about?)
 
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FineLinen

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Say what? - lol

What is this she and they business? (he's a he) he, he, he - lol

Dear Steve: I appreciate Noli elevating me to woman status which is a great advancement.

This is however only part of his many/polus blunders, the blunder of all blunders=

his ghastly concept of Abba.

iu


 
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nolidad

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You are claiming that God the Father "punished" his son Jesus? (for what?)
No wonder you aren't concerned about hell.

YOu don't know that Jesus became sin and was punished for our sin? Jesus was punished because He took upon HImself all of mankinds sin and God the Father poured out His wrath on Jesus for our sin!

What mankind would have to suffer in the eternity of time- Jesus suffered in the infinite depths of agony all for us! why do you think Jesus went to the cross??

Maybe he's brown-nosing DA ??? - lol
(I mean Augustine. Who did you think I was talking about?)

Well Jerome wrote the latin vulgate in 382-383. Augustine did not write any biased interpretation of Scripture.

So far for aionios not meaning forever for the lake of fire- you cite the infamous heretic Origen (who recanted of that position later on). You cannot prove it from the greek, so you are forced to cite a scholar who went heretic . Tell me do you also accept his teaching that Jesus was a created being?

Say what? - lol

What is this she and they business? (he's a he) he, he, he - lol

Okay then HE fine linen, seems to wish to impress by poorly constructed sentences intermingling English and greek to sound like a hyper pious person. If they do jot talk that way with people, why should he talk that way here! It certainly does the oposite of impressing me and many others!

Say what? - lol

Saint Steven said:
Every tongue :p - lol

No by adding "union" which does not appear in any manuscript to the Philippians 2 quote! That is known as dynamic interpretation and not linguistic translation, which more often than not is toxic to scripture.

Why bring this up now? You were agreement earlier on this page.

nolidad said:
You accuse the West church of a biased translation. I tend to agree with you! The vulgate was heavily influenced by Augustinian philosophy. But you need to show that eternal torment is a claim added to the Scripture and not just make an accusation without facts!

No I accussed the western church of a biased interpretation when they went to an allegorical interpretation of SCripture as their major methodology of interpreting Scripture! I did not accuse them of a biased translation of Scripture. There is a world of difference between interpreting Scripture (adding opinion) and translating Scripture (letting it say what it means in light of the whole counsel fo Scripture)
 
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nolidad

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That's not true.

Still waiting for that verse that shows men can repent in the lake of fire!

Right... like the countless billions that have never heard the name of Christ. (not)

Then show a verse that shows men can repent in the lake of fire! remember the lake doesn't get populated until the end of time! I used to think they could be saved. Then I read the whole of Scripture.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


I await you showing me God sends missionaries to the lake of fire!

Romans 9:

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


If you read this as written and not reinterpreted through your restorationist bias- you will see that God fits people for destruction!

Even philosophically your restorationist hypothesis lacks logic.

People who die and are lost go into the place of torment that the rich man in Luke goes to. they stay there until the endo of natural time when Jesus commands the sea, death, and the grave to give up the dead in them (Rev. 20) Remember hell was the place of the dead. The nether or underworld. Jesus taught it and Israel and the early church believed it as well! That is why Jesus taught the true account of Lazarus and the rich man!

So if people have been in torment for 6 millenia- why wouldn't they have repented by the events of Rev. 20??? 6,000 years is not enough torment???

But remember that Jesus taught us about the place of the physically (but not spiritually non existent)

Luke 16:

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

A GREAT GULF FIXED, SO THAT PEOPLE CANNOT CROSS!!!
 
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FineLinen

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The following post is by another individual on another Board, but reflects why for me, I believe our Father's intention is healing our broken beings.

My friend died suddenly a month ago of a brain aneurysm. She left behind a son, aged 26. He weighs 35 pounds and wears child-sized clothing. He was born with over 100 anomalies, one of which is that a portion of his brain never formed. His mentality is about that of a four-month old. His body is twisted. He is blind. He doesn't speak, he doesn't laugh, he doesn't cry. He occasionally makes some noise, for example, when the wind is blowing in his face, which he seems to enjoy. He will also reach for you and grasp your hand or finger.

Yet, when you hold this boy, you feel his spirit. There is someone in there, and it's my theory that you feel his spirit so strongly because he lacks the physical and mental defenses that the rest of us hide behind.

I think he's ahead of the rest of us spiritually. I also think he will follow his mother before too long. He was expected to die shortly after birth, then at two, and now it's anyone's guess. I believe that now that he does not hear the sound of her voice, he will leave.
 
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Saint Steven

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What mankind would have to suffer in the eternity of time- Jesus suffered in the infinite depths of agony all for us!
How does that support a forever burning hell? (it doesn't)
 
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Saint Steven

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Okay then HE fine linen, seems to wish to impress by poorly constructed sentences intermingling English and greek to sound like a hyper pious person. If they do jot talk that way with people, why should he talk that way here! It certainly does the oposite of impressing me and many others!
Luke 18:10-12
“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
 
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Saint Steven

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No I accussed the western church of a biased interpretation when they went to an allegorical interpretation of SCripture as their major methodology of interpreting Scripture! I did not accuse them of a biased translation of Scripture. There is a world of difference between interpreting Scripture (adding opinion) and translating Scripture (letting it say what it means in light of the whole counsel fo Scripture)
I'm not talking about commentary. I'm talking about the biased translation. The proof is in the pudding.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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How does that support a forever burning hell? (it doesn't)
Maybe everything we post is not intended to directly support the words of Jesus, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, these shall go away into eternal punishment, the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea, then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity, it had been good for that man if he had not been born, I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city."
.....And as nolidad has stated I too am waiting for one verse, 2 or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, not a prophet or disciple, unequivocally, says that they will save all mankind righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death.
 
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