The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

[Saint Steven]

He requires us to accept by trust in this life!

That's not true.

 

[Saint Steven]

If men go to hell- it is because they reject God!

Right... like the countless billions that have never heard the name of Christ. (not)

 

[Saint Steven]

Dear Sage: Your point is again correct. That ole sinner Steve has become such an addition to our Father's wonderful words of life. I shall therefore stand with him in the choir loft and we shall sing, sing, sing. Can you hear the tongs of the tuning fork of Heaven vibrating back & forth?

Hummmmmmmm

Hey... you guys are picking on me. (don't stop now)

 

[Saint Steven]

I was a universalist...

We would be happy to convert you to a Restorationist. It's the latest cool thing in Christianity. Get with it Daddio. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

You say that people in the afterlife can do that, but yet fail to list verses.

Here you go, for the second or third time.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

 

[Saint Steven]

Once again you face the dilemma of everlasting life (aionios zoe) if everlasitng torment is only for an age in the after life based on the definition of aion, then you have to accept that everlasting life is only for an age as well! You cannot redefine one when it is th esame as the other!

What dilemma?
I do accept that life is also age-during. No worries. Fortunately one age proceeds the next age. No worries. God isn't going to say, "Okay, time's up. Back to where you were."

 

[Saint Steven]

Here is a rule to protect you in your study of Scripture. First immediate context., then book context (if applicable).

Great. Now apply that here and tell me what you learn. Thanks.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Saint Steven]

that east/west split did not occur officially until 1054 AD.

The east/west split was there as soon as there was an east and a west.
There were those in the east and those in the west. Hello?

 

[Saint Steven]

You accuse the West church of a biased translation. I tend to agree with you! The vulgate was heavily influenced by Augustinian philosophy. But you need to show that eternal torment is a claim added to the Scripture and not just make an accusation without facts!

@FineLinen talks about that all the time. Haven't you been paying attention?

 

[Der Alte]

Great. Now apply that here and tell me what you learn. Thanks.
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out of context. Don't believe me read some JW or LDS literature, same thing different verses.

Matthew 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Luke 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.​

 

[Der Alte]

@FineLinen talks about that all the time. Haven't you been paying attention?

And I have proved FL wrong by quoting from the Eastern Orthodox Bible. Greek has always been their language since before NT times and they should know.

Matthew 25:46 Then Jesus said, “Those people will be punished forever. But the ones who pleased God will have eternal life.”
Online Bible Search - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America​

 

[FineLinen]

@FineLinen talks about that all the time. Haven't you been paying attention?

FineLinen is always talking all the time. Most get tired of F.L. talking all the time. His precious wife thinks a rest home is very close for his destination.

There are those who love a god who loves them, but love with a passion that this god refuses to love them who do not love him back.

The Divine Embrace

Perfect =

Brought to consummation or completeness; completed.

Not defective nor redundant.

Having all the properties or qualities requisite to its nature and kind;

Without flaw, fault, or blemish;

Without error; mature; whole; pure; sound; right; correct.

A complete and satisfactory close in harmony

A tense which expresses an act or state completed.

To make perfect; to finish or complete, so as to leave nothing wanting; to give to anything that which is requisite to its nature and kind.

This is the consummation of the Divine embrace as the Author brings everything back into Himself in perfect harmony and at-one-ment as the Finisher.

 

[FineLinen]

The Heavenly Big Gulp =

Katapino =

To swallow down death by/in victory.

To devour/ to drink/ to swallow.

Death (all thanatos) is overcome by Life.

Death is destroyed forever in victory.

Death is swallowed by/in triumphant Life.

Jonathan Mitchell N.T. =

"The death was drunk down and swallowed unto victory."

 

[Saint Steven]

There are those who love a god who loves them, but love with a passion that this god refuses to love them who do not love him back.

Yes. And all while telling us to love our enemies.

The Damnationists make God worse than a pagan, or a tax collector. (eww...)

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Saint Steven]

Here is a rule to protect you in your study of Scripture. First immediate context., then book context (if applicable).

That's a HUGE jump between "immediate" context and "book" context.

Some verses are not even the whole sentence. That's the place to start.
Close context would be adding the verse on either side. (before and after)
Whole paragraph is next. Then whole chapter. (if applicable)

This may be why you don't understand Restorationism. You can't use context to completely change, or dismiss, the obvious meaning of a verse, or scripture. First and foremost, it says what it says. Which you agreed with.

Restorationists object to the tampering of definitions used to CHANGE the intended meaning FROM the original writings. As in doctrinal bias. (like Damnationism)

 

[nolidad]

As written?
Is that what you call that travesty of a biased translation from the lying scribes?

I still await your evidence that the "western church" mistranslated the Scriptures with a bias, and I await your evidence proving they were "l;ying scribes". So far all you have doen is make unfounded accusations.

Did I nail Jesus to the cross?

Our sins nailed him there. Rome was just teh tool used to place him there so He would be punished for us by God the Father!

 

[nolidad]

Every tongue - lol

Love how fine linen has taken liberties with Gods Word and added her own thoughts!

 

[nolidad]

That's a HUGE jump between "immediate" context and "book" context.

Some verses are not even the whole sentence. That's the place to start.
Close context would be adding the verse on either side. (before and after)
Whole paragraph is next. Then whole chapter. (if applicable)

This may be why you don't understand Restorationism. You can't use context to completely change, or dismiss, the obvious meaning of a verse, or scripture. First and foremost, it says what it says. Which you agreed with.

Restorationists object to the tampering of definitions used to CHANGE the intended meaning FROM the original writings. As in doctrinal bias. (like Damnationism)

Well until you present some empirical evidence of all this biased translating and intentional changing meaning of words- you remain just noise without content. Sorry.

So we can't use context? Maybe the athiests are right then when they use the Bible to prove there is no God! After all there is a passage in SCripture that says there is no God!

Still awaiting your historical evidence that damnationsits have altered the word of God to promote a false doctrine.

Yes. And all while telling us to love our enemies.

The Damnationists make God worse than a pagan, or a tax collector. (eww...)

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

And you condemn "damnationists" for altering meanings?

Tell me what these two verses mean!

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Powerful words form the sta puff marshmallow God you promote.

See I fully accept the love god on mankind- but I also fully accept Gods holiness and perfect justice that are also attributes of Him

@FineLinen talks about that all the time. Haven't you been paying attention?

Fine linen seems to be lost in their own pseudo pious language. I choose to ignore them. But I am calling you out on your accusations of biased and lying scribes and asking you to be honorable and prove your accusations!

The east/west split was there as soon as there was an east and a west.
There were those in the east and those in the west. Hello?

So the Church was split at creation then. That was when God made an east and a west!

But as you have shown your self not even a student of chruch history- the divisions in the early church were not east west, but Jew/Gentile, churches following one apostle over another, The "East/West" division did not even form until after the Empire was broken up into two parts with Rome and Constaninople as capitals.

 

[nolidad]

That's not true.

Well you still have not dug up one verse that explicitly shows that there is repentance either in the place of torments or the lake of fire after time ends. That would go far to back your allegations agains the damnationationist bias and the "lying scribes".

Great. Now apply that here and tell me what you learn. Thanks.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

I love that verse! Believe it 100% Jesus atoned for every single persons sins! That makes HIm th eonly way to God the Father! Can't use Buddha or Muhamend or works etc. But one still has to receive Him by faith in order to benefit from the atonement.

Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 14:6 [Full Chapter]
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I can do this for all those precious verses you listed. Jesus died for everyone, Jesus sufferred eternal torment for everyone. But those who do not receive Him are lost and you need to show a verse that explicitly shows that an unbeliever who dies, can repent i the lake of fire and can be saved from that point.

Remember this fact when pondering that!

Luke 16:24-26 King James Version (KJV)
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

So unless this was retranslated by a "biased damnationist" or a "lying scribe" Jesus made it clear that there was no crosiing over from one side to the next!

 

[FineLinen]

Love how fine linen has taken liberties with Gods Word and added her own thoughts!

Noli: welcome back. You know how women are, very creative, loving and kind, but alas, take liberties with the word of the Lord. (LOL )

In the Name of all names every knee bows in worship, NOT by perfunctory genuflections, in union within the Name Iésous!