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Featured The Gathering Together to Him

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Servant232, Jan 13, 2018.

  1. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

    United States
    As He Inspires, this OP will be Increased. (Edited) And probably some other posts in order to present a clearer picture of these prophesies.

    Amil, pretererist, pre-tribbers and any other end time scenario of man that doesn't see believers returning to the Land promised to Abraham and his descendants forever during the dark and cloudy day = foolish virgins

    The Greater Exodus

    The gathering together of His People out of all of the nations where they have been scattered - The gathering together that the Thessalonians thought they had possibly missed. And Paul warned them that the gathering together was not going to happen until the man of sin is revealed.

    2 Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Adonai YESHUA Mashiach, and by our gathering together unto Him, 2 Thessalonians 2:2-3

    Isa 11:12

    And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

    Ezk 20:33
    As I Live, saith Adonai YHWH, surely with a Mighty Hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

    And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. Micah 2:12

    The upcoming Exodus will make the Exodus out of Egypt pale by comparison. Micah 7:15

    Jer 16:14
    Therefore, behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that it shall no more be said, YHWH Liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

    But, YHWH Liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from All the lands whither He had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

    Look to the Past to see the Future.

    Ecc 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and Elohim requireth that which is past.

    How He did it in the past is How He is going to do it in the near future.

    Isa 4:5
    And YHWH will create upon every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and upon her Assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.

    Those that are accounted worthy to Escape in one of these Assemblies are kept out of the hour of Trial which is coming upon the whole earth. Luke 21:36, Revelation 3:10 ~ Exodus 19:4, Revelation 12:14

    When is the Gathering Together going to occur ? Immediately after the gog-magog war.

    Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith Adonai YHWH; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for My Holy Name;

    After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against Me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

    When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;


    Then shall they know that I am YHWH their Elohim, which caused them to be led into captivity among the Goyim/Nations: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

    Neither will I hide My face any more from them: for I have poured out My Spirit upon the house of Israel, saith Adonai YHWH.

    Remember Lot's Wife​

    His People who say that the Evil, The Great Tribulation, The Dark and Cloudy day, The Time of Jacob's Trouble will not proceed them - Everyone that believes that they are getting raptured out of here when the GT starts, They Will Not be Accounted Worthy to Escape, they will not enter into one of the Assemblies of Zion. They have no faith, they chose rather to believe in fairy tales, the doctrines of demons that are peddled by shepherds that make merchandise of them. Amos 9:10 John 17:15 Proverbs 10:30

    Eagles' Wings
    Exodus 19:4
    Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on Eagles' Wings, and brought you unto Myself.

    Revelation 12:14
    And to the woman were given Two Wings of a Great Eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    Luke 21:36
    Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before The Son of Man.

    The Day of YHWH is 1000 years, In the which, at the end of It, the heavens and earth are re-newed.

    Don't be Ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with YHWH as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8

    But the day of the Adonai (1000 Year Reign) will come as a thief in the night;

    The Year of recompences for the controversy of Zion Isaiah 34:8

    The Day and Hour that is not possible to Know - Is the Day and Hour that this present Heaven and Earth will pass Away. Matthew 24:35-36 - Mark 13:31-32

    In Regards to His Second Coming, Those that watch, and escape in one of the assemblies of Zion shall know. Revelation 3:3 - Outside of His Assemblies ... The dragon will be prevailing against the Saints, the sword, captivity, few remain

    The Wilderness

    Hosea 2:14
    Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.

    And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor (Trouble) for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.

    Revelation 12:14
    And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    Ezekiel 20:35
    And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you Face to face.

    Psalms 78:15 Psalms 78:17 Psalms 78:19 Psalms 78:40 Psalms 78:52

    1 Corinthians 10:5
    But with many of them Elohim was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

    Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.


    The Fulness of the nations_People
    Jacob blessed Ephraim and said that he would become Melo ha Goyim Genesis 48:19

    Melo - Fulness
    Ha - The
    Goyim - People Nations

    In Romans 11:25 Paul says that blindness in part has happened to Israel (House of Judah) until the fulness of the Ethnos (People Nations) (Ephraim).

    The Ethnos that Paul is referencing are the same Goyim that Jacob said Ephraim would become.

    Ezekiel 37:19
    Say unto them, Thus saith Adonai YHWH; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine Hand.

    And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

    And say unto them, Thus saith the Adonai YHWH; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the GOYIM, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

    And I will make them one GOY in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one King shall be King to them all: and they shall be no more two GOYIM, neither shall they be divided into Two Kingdoms any more at all.

    The Fulness of the Ethnos are Ephraim, The Northern Kingdom, Those that were not His People, Children of the Living Elohim.


    Genesis 48:19 - καὶ οὐκ ἠθέλησεν ἀλλὰ εἶπεν οἶδα τέκνον οἶδα καὶ οὗτος ἔσται εἰς λαόν καὶ οὗτος ὑψωθήσεται ἀλλὰ ὁ ἀδελφὸς αὐτοῦ ὁ νεώτερος μείζων αὐτοῦ ἔσται καὶ τὸ σπέρμα αὐτοῦ ἔσται εἰς πλῆθος ἐθνῶν

    Ethnon - nation / people - nationalities

    G: 4128. pléthos - a great number - From pléthó (to be full)

    Received Text

    Romans 11:25 Οὐ γὰρ θέλω ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν ἀδελφοί τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο ἵνα μὴ ἦτεπαρ᾽ ἑαυτοῖς φρόνιμοι ὅτι πώρωσις ἀπὸ μέρους τῷ Ἰσραὴλ γέγονεν ἄχρις οὗτὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ

    G: 4138: pléróma -- fullness

    Jacob divided his family into Two bands!


    The 10 Northern Tribes have not returned yet, Ephraim Jeremiah 31:20, The House of Israel Amos 9:9, The House of Joseph Zechariah 10:6 are still in Exile. – The Amidah prayer #10 that is prayed twice daily by Orthodox Jews - Is a prayer for the return of the 10 Northern Tribes, which confirms the point that they have not returned as of this Day.

    According to Josephus the vast majority of the Northern Tribes in the first century, Lived within the Parthian empire which lasted for 5 centuries.

    Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 11.133

    The Antiquities of the Jews, 11.133

    133 and came to Babylon, as very desirous of going down to Jerusalem; but then the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country; wherefore there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Iomans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers.

    Only two tribes were subject to the Romans in the first century... The Northern Tribes were not within their jurisdiction.


    Has anyone read in Zechariah 12:7 where it is written that YHWH would save the dwellings of Judah First... They would return to their Homes, Judah in Jerusalem, and then the nations would come against Jerusalem Zechariah 12:9 and YHWH will destroy those nations - Then He will pour out His Spirit upon the House of David, and they look upon Aleph-Taw whom they pierced. Zechariah 12:10

    In your Bible it probably says Me whom they have pierced - The two Letters that are translated as Me are the "Aleph Taw" _ The First and Last letters of the Hebrew Alphabet

    They shall look upon "The First and Last" whom they pierced...


    Remove the log from your own eye, then maybe you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brothers. Isaiah 11:13

    The Mountains of Israel = The West Bank

    Ezekiel 38:8
    After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.


    And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

    The Attack of the gog magog coalition is for the West Bank, the land that the palestinians have been told belongs to them in a two state solution, the villages in the West Bank, do not have walls... There is the West Bank barrier which is where the fakestinians say Israel has proposed as the border...

    The gog-magog war is for control of the West Bank, east Jerusalem, the land that was recovered after Israel was attacked in the six day war.

    Joel 3:1-2 Joel 3:6 by a UN vote, greeks, grecians, that's democracy

    Dec 1, 2017 - The UN General Assembly voted overwhelmingly to disavow Israeli ties to Jerusalem as part of six anti-Israel resolutions it approved on Thursday in New York. The vote was 151 in favor and six against, with nine abstentions. The resolution came as the Trump Administration was rumored to be actively 151 UN states vote to disavow Israeli ties to Jerusalem

    Ezekiel 39:2

    And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:


    And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.


    Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.


    And, thou son of man, thus saith the Adonia YHWH; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

    Security checkpoints and intermittent walls, fences are not walled villages in the sense that villages used to have a wall.

    For Example

    Nowadays, Lugo is a city which is 332 km2 (128 sq. mi), and has a population of 98,560 (in 2014). It is the only city in the world which is surrounded by totally intact Roman Walls.


    Map signaling the gates in the wall of Lugo (Galicia, Spain) (CC BY-SA 2.0 )

    Please show me where in the West Bank and Jerusalem Itself where there are walled villages that are
    comparable... without walls, how high do you build them to keep the rockets out?



    There are Israeli "settlements" in the West Bank and if it were not for the USA, there wouldn't be a plan, now most commonly referred to as the "two state solution" that was first mentioned as a solution to the non-problem, (let them return to Jordon, Egypt and Syria where they belong, the sooner for them the better) by george w bush in the roadmap for peace speech he gave on 24 June 2002

    The Roadmap for peace or road map for peace (Hebrew: מפת הדרכים‎ Mapa had'rakhim, Arabic: خارطة طريق السلام‎ Khāriṭa ṭarīq as-salāmu) was a plan to resolve the Israeli–Palestinian conflict proposed by the Quartet on the Middle East: the United States, the European Union, Russia and the United Nations. The principles of the plan, originally drafted by U.S. Foreign Service Officer Donald Blome, were first outlined by U.S. President George W. Bush in a speech on 24 June 2002, in which he called for an independent Palestinian state living side by side with Israel in peace.

    The US has led the world to divide His Land, Zechariah 14:12

    The destruction of the second temple in
    Jerusalem on 8/4/70 until the roadmap for peace speech on 6/24/2002 =
    Result: 705,609 days < Link

    There are 31,102 verses in the Bible

    705609/31102 ~ Remainder 21365

    Verse 21365| Eze 36:5 Therefore thus saith Adonai YHWH; Surely in the fire of My jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed My Land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.

    The Prey is the LAND

    The Nations have spoken Joel 3:1-2 Joel 3:6
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
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  2. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

    United States

    Psa 102:16

    When YHWH *shall build up Zion, He shall appear in His Glory.

    *בָּנָה bânâh, baw-naw'; a primitive root; to build —(begin to) build(-er), obtain children, make, repair, set (up), × surely.

    to build, rebuild, establish, cause to continue

    1. (Qal)
      1. to build, rebuild

      2. to build a house (ie, establish a family)

    Titus 2:13 Looking for that Blessed Hope, and The Glorious Appearing of the Great Elohim and our Saviour YESHUA Mashiach;

    The Blessed Hope, His Appearing in Glory will not occur until Zion is Built

    The building up of Zion is the same as the Restoration of the Tabernacle of David

    It was during David's reign that all twelve tribes were united for the first time, serving one king, as One Nation in the Land promised to Abraham, and that didn't last very long, it ended at the death of Solomon, and because of the Promises He had made to David, He kept Judah and Levi, but the rest of the tribes have been scattered into the nations until this day. And as of yet, the majority of believers don't even know their true heritage... If you are a born again believer, In God's Eyes you are a Citizen of the House of Jacob, One of the Scattered..... Luke 1:33

    Amo 9:11 In that day will I raise up The tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

    Amo 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith YHWH thy Elohim.

    Eze 37:22

    And I will make them One nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and One King shall be King to them all: and they shall be no more Two nations, neither shall they be divided into Two kingdoms any more at all:

    One King YESHUA, One Nation, One Torah = ZION
  3. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

    One Torah?

    More Like The New Testament In The Blood Of Jesus Christ, The Lamb Of God.
  4. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

    United States
    Have you ever read the New Covenant, I will write My Torah upon their Hearts and Minds, You know the one where YESHUA is the Mediator? Hebrews 8:8 Hebrews 8:10 Jeremiah 31:33

    Heb 10:16 This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith YHWH, I will put My Torahs into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    Isaiah 42:21
    YHWH is well pleased for His righteousness' sake; He will magnify the Torah, and make it honourable.

    Isaiah 2:3
    And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the Mountain of YHWH, to the house of the Elohim of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the Torah, and The Word of YHWH from Jerusalem.

    The Bond of the Covenant is His Torah, Which Means INSTRUCTIONS - If you are alive and accounted worthy to escape in one of the Assemblies you will either accept His Instructions on how to live as a redeemed person, or you will be purged.

    Eze 20:37
    And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into The Bond of the Covenant:

    And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against Me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am YHWH.

    1Jo 3:4
    Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the Torah: for sin is the transgression of the Torah.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  5. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    You are "CONFLATING" Scriptures brother. The gathering from the nation back to Israel has nothing to do with what Paul was speaking about at all. The Gathering together unto the Lord will happen before the Man of Sin is revealed and before the Day of the Lord. That is why the Church must Depart, just like the Scriptures say, it has absolutely nothing do to with the Departure of the Faith.

    Its just people refusing to admit th facts as shown in the passage. They can close they eyes and say na, na, na, na, na, a million times, it changes nothing. The passage says the Church Departs before the Anti-Christ s revealed.
  6. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

    Only one way sins an iniquities are remembered no more.

    Through the New Testament's precious blood of Jesus Christ, the perfect Lamb of God.
  7. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

    United States
    Rather than just say that I am Conflating Scriptures, putting things together where they do not belong...

    Give me an example from what has been posted... Show me where I have Ignored the whole body of Scripture concerning this event and made a private interpretation out of any verse.

    The only way you are able to believe that aposticia means departure, Is because you ignore everything else written, Proverbs 10:30 John 17:15 and do not believe that God is able to protect you through It.. Pre-tribbers and their fantasies, foolish virgins that will find out only when it is to late.
  8. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States

    2Th 2:1-3
    [1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    The gathering (rapture) will not happen until two things must happen:

    1.) A falling away FIRST
    2.) Man of sin be revealed.

    Your position is wrong. You are deceived by the doctrine of Dr. Thomas Ice where he forced the Greek word apostasia to mean the departure of the church from the planet earth (rapture) as opposed to the falling away from faith within the church. So you used this theory to prove that the church do not have to be on earth when the man of sin be revealed. Sorry but Paul did not write this! You are reading into Scripture to fit your false doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture.

    I can prove you, and Dr. Thomas Ice's fellowers, wrong with this.

    It is because you are "reading into" apostasia a "deaprture into heaven." That is NOT written there, nor implied in any sense of the context. The word literally means to desert or seperate (which could be described as departing), and by extension or implication, to forsake something or someone. Just as this Greek word is translated "forsake" else where in Scripture. For example:

    Acts 21:21
    • "And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs."
    The Bible "being its own interpreter," we see that the word [apostasia] is clearly used here to denote his instruction to the people to "forsake" or "depart" (turn away from) the teaching that one must be circumcised. Clearly, it denotes a forsaking doctrines, or departing from (what they considered) the Word of Moses. In the final analysis, we have to remember that the Bible is its own dictionary and interpreter. Not Webster, nor Concordance Commentaries, Woolvard Institute, nor Greek scholars for that matter.

    To forsake is in some sense to abandon or depart from something or someone. If I forsake my friends, then I have in some sense departed from them. Even if we're still in the same room or at the same table. So it doesn't denote physically leaving. But that's not even the real issue they have. The real issue is that your theory is that "this" forsaking or separation to mean the rapture and without one shred of Biblical justification whatsoever! There really is no mystery to the word, but I know that people like you will always look for ways to twist both the Hebrew and Greek to conform to their own personal/private interpretations and beliefs like Thomas Ice did. So we always have to "Beware of gifts bearing Greek!" :rolleyes:

    Again, the word literally means breaking away from or separating from. For example, as in separating from doctrines, from lifestyles or divorcing oneself from another. In fact, if you look up the Greek word divorcement in the New Testament, guess what, you will find its [apostasion], the feminine of which is [apostasia]! So where is the mystery? It's a separating from. The falling away (Apostasy) is the separation from the truth, the forsaking of the Christian faith, which is manifested by the sinful man ruling in the Lord's house. Paul was talking about the man of sin (false prophets and christs) who was supposed to hold God's Word in the church but has "defected" from it by replace the Truth with their own gospels, doctrines, or entertainments for purpose of building bigger church to make more money for themselves, or to twist the Gospel to make it more attractive to the world. This is a falling away from Truth and this is how Satan is revealed through the false prophets and Christs. These two things must happen FIRST before Christ returns to gather His Saints to meet with Him in the air.

    And the context of 2nd Thessalonians 2 all but declares this clearly, and commands the faithful to
    "stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." In other words, when you see this, don't you forsake the truth, but stand fast, remain faithful to the word delivered unto you.

    Therein is the mystery of between the man of sin, and the man of righteousness. The man seeking to rule in God's stead, and the man under the rule of God. The man who holds fast the faith, and the man that departs from the faith.

    ...but if you think any of this will change anyone's mind, it won't. Their problem is not the Greek word [apostasia], but the doctrine of rapture before the end of the world. Its doctrine, and receiving it, not Greek!

    1st Timothy 4:1
    • "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"
    The seducing spirit of the Antichrist is ALREADY among us, the apostasy is among us, the departing is among us, the forsaking is among us. But, hey, we are still here. Selah
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  9. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

    United States
    Of course, that is true - but one of the worst problems with Christendom and its Greek linear thinking when trying to understand any verse, Is assigning one interpretation wherein there are multiple facets that need to be understood as a whole in any verse, and because one facet is true, that does not exclude other facets of the same being equally true - Each not exclusive of each other... and If a person has rejected the Torah Hosea 4:6 They are without Knowledge, and lack the core pieces of the puzzle, can't help them, go and buy from those that sell.

    My people perish for lack of Knowledge, a verse that many like to quote

    But they never finish the verse, where YHWH says that their lack of knowledge is because they rejected His Torah, and they will not be His Priests.

    The Wisdom of the wise is the Torah, the foolish virgins are foolish because they have been taught incorrectly concerning His Instructions - The Torah, which is His Wisdom, and proceeds from Him, His Character and He changes not.

    Those that will Get the Victory are Singing Two Songs.

    Rev 15:2
    And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the Harps of Elohim.

    And they sing the song of Moses the servant of Elohim, And the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are Thy works, Adonai EL Shaddai; just and true are thy ways, Thou King of saints.

    When His people are in Exile, their harps are hanging upon the willows, Because You can't sing the songs of Zion in a Foreign land.

    Psa 137:1

    By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.

    Psa 137:2

    We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.

    Those that get the victory have Harps, Because they Returned to the promise land and were a part of the Building up of Zion.

    And will be blessed to say

    Baruch Haba b'Shem YHWH, Adonai YESHUA Mashiach, Melech Ha Olam. Ahmane

    Those that get the victory are singing Two Songs, The Song of Moses/Torah and the Song of the Lamb.

    Because The Torah is Being Written Upon their Hearts, A Better Promise of the NEW COVENANT... that christendom rejects... stiff-necked and stubborn preferring traditions while
    they make void His Commandments.... OY VEY
  10. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

    “Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

    Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

    The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

    This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

    They were as follows:

    1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

    2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

    3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

    4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

    5. The Great Bible (1540)

    6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

    7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

    Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

    One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

    Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

    In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

    And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

    I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 years.

    You seem to be off on everything brother.
  11. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    Those Old Testament verses you cited do not correlate with the Thessalonian verses. That means you are conflating or MIXING THEM UP.
  12. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

    United States
    What comes before the Day of the Lord: the final “apostasy” or the “departure” of the church? [Studies in Thessalonians]

    Apostacy or Departure

    The other marker is more controversial: an “apostasy” or “falling away” (apostasia, ἀποστασία). The word might denote a political rebellion. Nevertheless, “falling away” in Judeo-Christian contexts usually refers to a spiritual apostasy. In the Apocrypha, many Jews apostatized from Yahweh in 1 Macc 2:15 (NRSV) – “The king’s officers who were enforcing the apostasy came to the town of Modein to make them offer sacrifice” to Greek gods. Paul himself was accused of teaching Diaspora Jews “apostasy from Moses” (Acts 21:21). The verb form also appears in a warning against apostasy in Heb 3:12 and in the Lukan version of the Parable of the Sower to speak of those who fall away because of persecution (Luke 8:13). Paul uses the verb (aphistemi, ἀφίστημι) of the end-time falling away once in 1 Tim 4:1; he uses the noun form (apostasia, ἀποστασία) only here in 2 Thess 2:3.[2] Most Bible versions render the term correctly: “falling away” (ASV, KJV, NKJV); rebel, rebellion (CEV, ESV, GNB, NIV, NLT, NRSV, RSV), revolt (GW, NJB), apostasy (HCSB, NASB).

    But wait! A few Bible students have suggested that 2 Thess 2:3 should be translated not as the “apostasy” but as a “removal” or “departure.” That is, the church is taken away from the earth, with the rest of the population “left behind” for the tribulation.

    Can this interpretation hold up? To be sure, the cognate verb(aphistemi, ἀφίστημι) has “to depart” as one of its meanings (Luke 2:37; Acts 15:38). One of the arguments that people use for the “rapture” view of 2 Thess 2:3 point to those uses of the verb and claim, Aha! So apostasia means departure, not apostasy. This is fallacious use of the Greek. One cannot simply import that meaning into the noun. Paul does not use the verb in 2 Thessalonians, but the noun. The noun form (apostasia, ἀποστασία) is a Jewish and Christian technical term for religious apostasy, being used to describe Judas Iscariot, the Antichrist, and the end time religious rebellion; that is its meaning here.

    The doctrine of an end-time falling away was not a Christian innovation, but was also a running theme in Jewish eschatology. The majority will abandon God’s law, while a small remnant will keep itself righteous.

    Jesus predicted a final end-time apostasy (Matt 24:10 uses a synonym for “fall away,” skandalizo, σκανδαλίζω). Implicit in 2 Thess 2:5 is that Paul had taught them about the final apostasy while he was with them in Thessalonica: “Do you not remember that when I was with you I told you these things?” Paul’s eschatology seems to rely on the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:

    • the disciples should not be alarmed
    • there will come deception and false prophets
    • many will go apostate
    • the antichrist figure will appear

    By definition apostasy is possible only when one has already confessed the faith. This would seem to rule out those who do not affirm Christ. Also, in Matt 24 the recipients of the eschatological teaching are the disciples of Jesus.[4] That is, due to persecutions and satanic deceptions, they themselves face the danger of falling away from faith in the Christian gospel: “many” will fall away, and the one who endures to the end will be saved (Matt 24:10, 13). Jesus is describing a heightened danger of the “falling away” which he warned about in Matt 13:21.

    Thomas ice, you mean the guy who withdrew from a debate that he proposed, Because this very issue was to be a one of the topics, How very telling [​IMG]

    An Open Letter to Thomas Ice and the Pre-Trib Research Center

    Earlier this yeari, arising from the 2015 release of the video documentary “Left Behind or Led Astray?” which chronicled the history and origin of the Pretribulational Rapture Teaching, Pre-Trib Research Center director Dr Thomas Ice, on the Berean Call radio show, on the basis of his own interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3[​IMG], publicly challenged Pastor Joe Schimmel for the $10,000 offered in the documentary to anyone who could find a biblical text clearly supporting a pretribulational timing for the Rapture event. This challenge initiated an informal debate between Pastor Joe Schimmel of Blessed Hope Chapel and himself concerning the subject of Dr Ice’s contention that the apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3[​IMG] refers not to a departure from the faith, but a spatial departure into Heaven, namely the Rapture.

    Subsequent to this, Dr Ice issued a formal challenge to Pastor Schimmel to formally and publicly debate Pretrib history and origins at the upcoming Pre-Trib Research Center Prophecy Conference in December 2016. Dr Ice had already selected Dr Paul Wilkinson as a debate partner, and Pastor Schimmel chose bible expositor Jacob Prasch, while at the same time issuing a counter challenge that the scriptural basis for the Pretrib Rapture should also be debated as well. After negotiation it was agreed that there should be two debates: one to discuss Pretrib history and origins; and another to deal with the scriptural issues and concerns.

    Dr Ice is one of the foremost and most zealous exponents of the Pretribulational Rapture teaching on the prophecy circuit today. He is also Director of the Pre-Trib Research Center, an organisation devoted to defending and promoting the Pretribulational Rapture Teaching, so considering that his debate challenge was issued with such an air of confidence we were somewhat saddened and disappointed to receive a communication from Dr Ice shortly afterward stating the following:

    “After prayer and consulting with my board of directors, we have decided to withdraw any debate offer and will not participate in any debates at all. We will deal with these issues in a different way.”

    Dr Ice’s withdrawal from the very debate he himself proposed, and indeed his subsequent refusal to enter into any future such thing raises questions, but as pastors, bible expositors and concerned believers we see this refusal as part of an ongoing and ever-growing trend of concerns about the teachings and activities of the Pretribulational Rapture Movement and which are generating ever-increasing alarm, and we present some of these below for prayerful consideration by the wider body of Christ.

    Ice is a charlatan that goes back on his word, because he is a hireling that knows his deceptive methods of interpreting are being exposed.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  13. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

    The Wisdom Of The Wise, Is God's Indwelling Of His Holy Spirit.
  14. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

    United States
    And the Holy Spirit Leads the Believer into All Truth

    Thy Righteousness is an EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS, and Thy TORAH is TRUTH Psalms 119:142 אֱמֶֽת Emet

    Howbeit when He, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, is come, He will guide you into ALL TRUTH: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. John 16:13

    And Because of the NEW COVENANT, Like David I can say Psalms 40:8 I delight to do Your Will, O my Elohim ~ Your Torah is Within my Heart

    Thy Will be done on Earth in me

    The Holy Spirit can be quenched when a person refuses to hear what He Is saying, when they are rebellious against God, He will answer them according to their own delusions that they have imagined and will bring their fears upon them Isaiah 66:4... And unknowingly they remain in their cycle of ignorance, .... Do they really confess Him when they deny all the things that He says ?... With their mouths they honor Him, but christendom's heart is far far from Him ...
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  15. Choose Wisely

    Choose Wisely Forgiven Supporter

    Paul said the DAY OF THE LORD would not happen until the man of sin is revealed. That would be Gods wrath.
  16. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    No. God was not talking about evil in the world, but rather the apostasy IN THE CHURCH where love of God (Truth) grows cold. The world outide Church was always evil and in Satan's control.

    You misunderstood about how God's covenant church which is not the entirely true church. By the way is the actual meaning of the Greek word [ekklesia] which is translated as church. It's from ['ek] meaning out, and [kletos] meaning called. And [kletos] is the actual word used in Christ's warning them, "For many are called, but few are chosen."-Matthew 22:14. The congregation is collectively the many called (professed Christians) and the elect (True Church) within the church are the few who actually chosen (just like Israel of old.). Please read Revelation 11:1-2 and see how the Holy City was divided between Elect and professed Believers, measured and not measured, and the court (external church) is given to the Gentiles (Heathen).

    Again, the word apostasy [apostasia], as used in scripture, is by definition a "deserting or forsaking" of the truth by the church. You can't fall away or desert the truth if you have never been enlightened by it, and had tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers (Hebrews 6:4) of the Holy Ghost by being a part of the external Covenant congregation. Apostasy is when those in the church, the ones WITHOUT the seal of God, the professed Christians, defect from the sound doctrines of Christ to unfaithful and self serving doctrines of men. So yes, the Apostasy is in the church today excuse-makers notwithstanding.

    That is why the Scripture warns about the UNFAITHFUL church (Babylon the Great) that can fall away, where the True Church remnant can "see" the abomination of desolation (which causes the falling away) standing within her and flee from her to avoid her judgment.

    No Thomas Ice is wrong about the apostasia which he has privately interpreted it as the departure of the church from the world when the apostasia is found else where in Scripture to mean otherwise.

    Very unlikely!
  17. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

    United States
    2 Th 2:1
    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Adonai YESHUA Mashiach, and by our gathering together unto Him,

    When the Children of Israel were brought out of the land of Egypt by His Mighty Hand .... Metaphorically YHWH described the event as bringing them out upon Eagles' Wings unto Himself, when they all heard His Voice from the Mount.

    Ex 19:4

    Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself.

    YESHUA Said Watch and Pray Always that you may be accounted worthy to escape these things and stand before The Son of Man.

    They Stood before Him, But they Never Left the Earth to do It...

    Noah didn't leave the earth while the wicked were destroyed He got into the Ark he built, the foolish virgins will probably think that the Assemblies that will suddenly appear all over the world is an Alien invasion, Project Bluebeam or some other pre-programmed notion... And will
    be as perplexed as to what they are and what to do as the rest of society. And by the Time they figure it out, Get on Board when and if you get the chance.

    Because How much sense does it make for YESHUA to say

    Remember Lot's Wife

    If you are suddenly raptured, It doesn't, But it makes sense if you are going to have to make a decision as to " Should I stay or Should I go now "

    The Future Greater Exodus which the Book of Revelation is all about, The 144,000 Deliverers, each one like unto Moses leading one of the Assemblies of Zion. Revelation 14:1 Obadiah 1:21 , And by using the same language, Eagles Wings, those that know the Torah, How He delivered Them previously and brought them to Himself, Have no problem trusting that He will do the same for them if they do what He says. Revelation 12:14...

    You're not appointed to wrath if He is protecting you through it, that's a given, he is storing that up to pour out upon the wicked.

    God can be very selective, the illustration of the first Exodus should have taught you that, Only in the Land of Goshen where the children of Israel were Living, they did not experience the Seven last Plagues... But the rest of Egypt was wiped out.

    If you are in an Assembly only with your eyes will you see the destruction of the wicked, but as for the plagues and God's Wrath, Praise YAH, we are not Appointed to that.... But persecution by the man of sin against the saints that don't escape, He is going to be prevailing against them until the Kingdom come for 1260 days - 42 Months - A Times Time and Half a Time.

    And The Day of YHWH is One Thousand Years, Peter says Do not be Ignorant, A day is to YHWH as a Thousand Years, and A thousand Years as one Day

    And he says right after admonishing them not to be ignorant about this

    The Day of YHWH

    The Day of YHWH begins in Darkness, The Great Tribulation and Ends at the White Throne Judgement a Thousand Years later...

    John was Caught up on the Day of YHWH, and saw It all, A thousand Year Span...

    And at the end of the thousand years, the elements will melt and those that overcame shall inherit the New Heaven and Earth...After they reigned with Him a Thousand Years...

    Blessed and Holy are those that have a part in the first Resurrection
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  18. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Thomas Ice specifically cites seven early bible translations prior to the King James Version of 1611 that he claims to render the noun apostasia as either "departure" or "departing" which he chooses to interpret as the rapture, a meaning which was not intended by the early translators.

    It is the departure from faith! Period. Not departure of the church from the world. That is where he obviously is wrong and was the reason why he dropped out of the debate that everyone was talking about! Even the footnote in The Geneva Bible for the disputed verse to say it is "a falling away from the truth religion."

    Dr. Ice violently switches "departure from the faith" with the rapture, he inserts the word "tribulation" which is not specifically mentioned in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, let alone verse 3, and then, as if by magic, the rapture precedes the tribulation! The false interpretation of "rapture" for "apostasia" is essential for the pre-tribulation rapture theory to hold water, whereas if we interpret "apostasia" as "rebellion", the meaning is plain! If we give Ice's interpretation credibility, we are left with the bizarre meaning that the rapture will not come unless the rapture comes first! His teaching is totally perverse! Period!
  19. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    Try making a point yourself, I d not read copy and paste posts. My post is MY OWN THREAD my ow blog I created sir. All the copy and past in the world changes none of the facts. The SUBJECT is the Gathering together unto Christ, not THE FAITH. You can't even begin to explain why its speaking about the FAITH because nowhere in the whole passage is it ever speaking about the FAITH !! But it is most certainly speaking about the Rapture or GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO THE LORD !!

    Of course facts never persuade you post tribers of anything, but God will let you know when you get to Heaven. This is elementary stuff.
  20. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    The Latin Vulgate used DEPART...Its clear to everyone actually accept you post tribbers that its speaking about a Rapture (Gathering tgether unto Christ) and that NOWHERE is the FAITH ever mentioned in the passage.

    The Facts are the facts. The first 7 English translations say DEPARTURE. The Latin Vulgate for 1100 years before the KJV said DEPARTURE. Nowhere is FAITH MENTIONED !!

    The Church DEPARTS before the Man of Sin comes on the scene, bit Satan is real busy deceiving.