The Full Spectrum of Christian Belief on Origins - where are you?

tkolter

Active Member
May 8, 2018
94
62
56
Saint Petersburg, Florida
✟22,246.00
Country
United States
Faith
Fundament. Christ.
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I'm a Young Earth Creationist and believe the Biblical account accurate and literal and the Bible is a book of books representing a God of Wonders who can do the impossible to us but is simple things for Him to do. And anything we read like the Biblical Flood should be read simply and accepted and nothing else is needed in fact contemplating on the whys and wherefores is an affront to the Lord. I would note those worldly sciences and knowledge in opposition to this should be simply ignored since its not important to do that when the Bible is clear and simple to read on these and other considerations.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BobRyan
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,298
10,589
Georgia
✟909,238.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I'm a Young Earth Creationist and believe the Biblical account accurate and literal and the Bible is a book of books representing a God of Wonders who can do the impossible to us but is simple things for Him to do. And anything we read like the Biblical Flood should be read simply and accepted and nothing else is needed in fact contemplating on the whys and wherefores is an affront to the Lord.

All true. Nice post.

I would note those worldly sciences and knowledge in opposition to this should be simply ignored since its not important to do that when the Bible is clear and simple to read on these and other considerations.

To put it more bluntly there is no science in existence today that benefits mankind/science/knowledge one iota by having even one scientist as a "believer in evolutionism".
 
Upvote 0

Doveaman

Re-Created, Not Evolved.
Mar 4, 2009
8,444
593
✟77,387.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I have a theological reason for not accepting 3, since that would make God out to be a deceiver.
People should stop blaming God for their own self deception.

If God created the universe according to YECs and then told us in His word that He did it, He would not be a deceiver since He told us He did it.

It is those who rely on natural observations, rather than on God's word, who end up deceiving themselves by what they see.

"For we walk by faith, not by sight." - (2 Cor 5:7)
"We do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen." - (2 Cor 4:18)
 
Upvote 0

FaithfulPilgrim

Eternally Seeking
Feb 8, 2015
455
120
South Carolina
✟39,839.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
I’m somewhere between a Progressive Creationist and a Theistic Evolutionist. I now doubt a Young Earth view, but I’m not sure if I’m fully on board with evolution, either, so I’m exploring both Old Earth Creationism and Theistic Evolution.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,298
10,589
Georgia
✟909,238.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I’m somewhere between a Progressive Creationist and a Theistic Evolutionist. I now doubt a Young Earth view, but I’m not sure if I’m fully on board with evolution, either, so I’m exploring both Old Earth Creationism and Theistic Evolution.

I think it is fair to say that both of those are wrong - unless by "old earth creationism" you mean

1. Rocks on Earth are 4 billion years old
2. Life on Earth is 6000 years old

The Bible says
Ex 20:8 "six days you shall labor.."
"11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." Ex 20:11

No good way to shoehorn "Old Earth Creationism and Theistic Evolution" into such a text without a lot of abuse to the text.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,298
10,589
Georgia
✟909,238.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
People should stop blaming God for their own self deception.

If God created the universe according to YECs and then told us in His word that He did it, He would not be a deceiver since He told us He did it.

It is those who rely on natural observations, rather than on God's word, who end up deceiving themselves by what they see.

"For we walk by faith, not by sight." - (2 Cor 5:7)
"We do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen." - (2 Cor 4:18)

It is not even at the level of "natural observation" --- because the fact is that nobody has ever "observed" rocks/dust/gas evolve into "bunny" -- in nature. Nor has it been observed that rock-dust-gas turn into an amoeba. Nor has it been observed that amoeba turn into "bunny".
 
Upvote 0

food4thought

Loving truth
Site Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I am still an old earth creationist, and I hold to the gap theory. I now believe the earth was part of a former creation that ended in complete judgment, and that is where all the ancient rocks and the oldest fossils come from...

Genesis 1:1-2 KJV+ In the beginningH7225 GodH430 createdH1254 (H853) the heavenH8064 and the earth.H776 (2) And the earthH776 wasH1961 without form,H8414 and void;H922 and darknessH2822 was uponH5921 the faceH6440 of the deep.H8415 And the SpiritH7307 of GodH430 movedH7363 uponH5921 the faceH6440 of the waters.H4325

In verse 2, the fourth word (was H1961) could very easily be translated "became". So it could very well read "And the earth became without form, and void". This would strongly indicate a former world that had come into judgment. Also note this verse:

Genesis 1:9 KJV+ And GodH430 said,H559 Let the watersH4325 underH4480 H8478 the heavenH8064 be gathered togetherH6960 untoH413 oneH259 place,H4725 and let the dryH3004 land appear:H7200 and it wasH1961 so.H3651

Note that the land "appeared" when the waters were gathered together, there is no record of God speaking the land into existence. The most logical conclusion is that the land already existed under the waters. This is also strong evidence for the earth existing before this current creation.

Someone is going to bring up Romans 5:12, but I believe that Paul is speaking of the current world, not the former world. Sin entered this current world thru Adam, and death resulted.

Just my thoughts on the matter...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,298
10,589
Georgia
✟909,238.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I now believe the earth was part of a former creation that ended in complete judgment,

But you do realize that looks like a case of creative writing -- right?

In verse 2, the fourth word (was H1961) could very easily be translated "became".

"could easily be translated" - by someone who actually knew Hebrew and the fact that it is a "high context language"?

Do you have such a person to show us?

Even if "became" were inserted - we have "became after having been what?"--

The "what" could be a large gas cloud, dust, rocks after the big bang. The "became after having something happen" prior to "becoming formless and void with water covering the face of the deep" leaves a lot of room for options, but since God calls this the "account of the creation" of Earth in Genesis 2:4... it appears that no prior creation of Earth and all life on it - is allowed in the text.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
I am still an old earth creationist, and I hold to the gap theory. I now believe the earth was part of a former creation that ended in complete judgment, and that is where all the ancient rocks and the oldest fossils come from...

Genesis 1:1-2 KJV+ In the beginningH7225 GodH430 createdH1254 (H853) the heavenH8064 and the earth.H776 (2) And the earthH776 wasH1961 without form,H8414 and void;H922 and darknessH2822 was uponH5921 the faceH6440 of the deep.H8415 And the SpiritH7307 of GodH430 movedH7363 uponH5921 the faceH6440 of the waters.H4325

In verse 2, the fourth word (was H1961) could very easily be translated "became". So it could very well read "And the earth became without form, and void". This would strongly indicate a former world that had come into judgment. Also note this verse:

Genesis 1:9 KJV+ And GodH430 said,H559 Let the watersH4325 underH4480 H8478 the heavenH8064 be gathered togetherH6960 untoH413 oneH259 place,H4725 and let the dryH3004 land appear:H7200 and it wasH1961 so.H3651

Note that the land "appeared" when the waters were gathered together, there is no record of God speaking the land into existence. The most logical conclusion is that the land already existed under the waters. This is also strong evidence for the earth existing before this current creation.

Someone is going to bring up Romans 5:12, but I believe that Paul is speaking of the current world, not the former world. Sin entered this current world thru Adam, and death resulted.

Just my thoughts on the matter...
I tend to agree mainly because of the tense of H1961"hayah". I could be mistaken on that, but it doesn't affect my salvation in the least or my faith in Yahweh/Christ and the Bible.

If scientists are right about the earth being billions of years old along with fossils being millions of years old, then the gap theory would make sense.

According to the ISA Scripture4All Hebrew interlinear, the translation "she-became/had-become-to-be" is used in 68 verses of the OT, thus implying a past earth that had become flooded [perhaps because of a previous judgement and flood?] and that particular form of the word isn't used again until Genesis 36:12.

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

The tense is "indicative preterite" according to this site [never heard of that tense until now]:

Conjugation became | Conjugate verb became | Reverso Conjugator English
Indicative
Preterite
became

Genesis 1:
1 In a-beginning Elohim created the Heavens and the Earth.
2 and the Earth, she-became<1961> waste and void, and darkness on surface of submerged chaos,
and a spirit of Elohim fluttering over surface of the waters..........

1961 hayah haw-yaw a primitive root (Compare 1933);
to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):--beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use.


In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood - Is There a Large Gap of Time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?

Why then do some believe in the gap theory?............................

Rather than start the creation week at Genesis 1:1 as most Bible scholars do, gappists start that week at Genesis 1:3. Therefore, they believe that before Genesis 1:3, a vast length of time existed—as they state, “whatever geologists demand.”

To justify this, they propose nontraditional translations of several verses.
They believe that Genesis 1:2a should be translated “the Earth became formless and void,” instead of the more widely accepted translation “the Earth was formless and void.” I know of no record, before 1800, of anyone advocating such a translation.
While the Hebrew word “hayah” can be translated “became,” it is usually translated “was.” In the 4,900 times “hayah occurs in the Old Testament, almost 98% are translated as “was.” Hebrew grammarians and linguists have almost uniformly rejected the translation “became” or “had become.”...............



,


.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: food4thought
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

food4thought

Loving truth
Site Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I tend to agree mainly because of the tense of H1961"hayah". I could be mistaken on that, but it doesn't affect my salvation in the least or my faith in Yahweh/Christ and the Bible.

If scientists are right about the earth being billions of years old along with fossils being millions of years old, then the gap theory would make sense.

According to the ISA Scripture4All Hebrew interlinear, the translation "she-became/had-become-to-be" is used in 68 verses of the OT, thus implying a past earth that had become flooded [perhaps because of a previous judgement and flood?] and that particular form of the word isn't used again until Genesis 36:12.

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

The tense is "indicative preterite" according to this site [never heard of that tense until now]:

Conjugation became | Conjugate verb became | Reverso Conjugator English
Indicative
Preterite
became

Genesis 1:
1 In a-beginning Elohim created the Heavens and the Earth.
2 and the Earth, she-became<1961> waste and void, and darkness on surface of submerged chaos,
and a spirit of Elohim fluttering over surface of the waters..........

1961 hayah haw-yaw a primitive root (Compare 1933);
to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):--beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use.


In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood - Is There a Large Gap of Time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?

Why then do some believe in the gap theory?............................

Rather than start the creation week at Genesis 1:1 as most Bible scholars do, gappists start that week at Genesis 1:3. Therefore, they believe that before Genesis 1:3, a vast length of time existed—as they state, “whatever geologists demand.”

To justify this, they propose nontraditional translations of several verses.
They believe that Genesis 1:2a should be translated “the Earth became formless and void,” instead of the more widely accepted translation “the Earth was formless and void.” I know of no record, before 1800, of anyone advocating such a translation.
While the Hebrew word “hayah” can be translated “became,” it is usually translated “was.” In the 4,900 times “hayah occurs in the Old Testament, almost 98% are translated as “was.” Hebrew grammarians and linguists have almost uniformly rejected the translation “became” or “had become.”...............



,


.

I agree that this view could very well be wrong, and I hold to it loosely (which is why I generally choose not to speak in this forum). I am confident that whatever the actual meaning of the text, when all is known God's word will be vindicated.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,059
11,385
76
✟366,396.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
This is all I want to TE's to admit. I do not think that a TE who shares the above veiw is lacking in faith. They have enough faith to beleive that God could do it the YEC way but for certain reasons think the TE way is more likely.

He could have used creation gremlins if He had wanted. Which would be no weirder than the idea that he poofed things into existence on at a time. Comes down to evidence.

It is when TE's totally rule out YEC when I get a little annoyed with them.

Since YEC isn't supported by scripture, and doesn't fit the evidence, it's pretty hard to see why someone would believe it.

I will however say that to reject a literal Adam and Eve is very unbiblical because Gods Word states through genelogys that Jesus is a literal decendent of Adam.

Evolutionary theory doesn't rule out a literal Adam and Eve, but you might want to consider that the Bible has two contradictory genealogies for Jesus, if you assume that they are meant to be literal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Catfisher
Upvote 0

Gbob

Active Member
Site Supporter
Apr 28, 2019
80
37
74
College Station
✟56,139.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
To put it more bluntly there is no science in existence today that benefits mankind/science/knowledge one iota by having even one scientist as a "believer in evolutionism".

I would disagree with that. Cancer must be treated with the understanding that it is an evolutionary ball of cells. When it is treated and the tumor shrinks 60% what is left is the nastier, more craftily evolved cells and they are immune to the treatment. This is why I am treated with 2 or 3 drugs at a time to try to kill everyone at once with something.

I will answer the OP. I am a theistic evolutionist who believes that the Genesis accounts MUST be historical or go be something else. If God didn't know what happened at creation, then how can we be sure that he knows how to save people. I worked as a geophysicist in the oil industry and was exposed to geological data none of the YEC literature discusses. I entered the business as a YEC and was appalled at the discrepancy between what I saw on the data we collected vs what I believed as a YEC. For 10 years I published as a yec before the data discrepancy drove me to doubt everything. I went through a 10 year crisis of faith. I eventually came to believe that Genesis 1 is not actual creation but the pre-temporal planning of the universe. It is consistent with the Talmudic view that the Bible was written before creation. It is called the Days of Proclamation view and it in part goes back to St Basil in the 4th century. Each day has God say something, "Let there be light". It doesn't say "Let there be light right now". It also doesn't say "Let there be light and it was so". The 'and it was so" was added by the earthly writer. But it doesn't say WHEN light came into being.

This view allows God to plan the universe in any order He wishes to, much like an architect might design the exterior prior to doing the foundation. This gets us out of all the geological difficulties I faced with plants created prior to the sun etc.

Genesis 2 was billions of years AFTER Genesis 1 and was the creation of man. I do believe it is theologically essential to have an actual first human; and surgery resulting in Eve as described. Humans are special.

For the YECs I would say they have a perfect right to their belief. I just wish they would quit trying to make it sound scientific. Just say God did it and created it all. Don't tie the Bible to fake data or try to shoehorn data into a view when it doesn't actually fit. Have the courage of your conviction and just say, God did created it instantly and that is my faith position. I almost became an atheist because I had been taught that YEC was essential to the Biblical message. So when I determined that YEC was wrong, I doubted the Bible and its message.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gbob

Active Member
Site Supporter
Apr 28, 2019
80
37
74
College Station
✟56,139.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Evolutionary theory doesn't rule out a literal Adam and Eve, but you might want to consider that the Bible has two contradictory genealogies for Jesus, if you assume that they are meant to be literal.

I think people are far too quick to dismiss what is in the Bible as being false. These genealogies may not be 'contradictory'. Just different purposes. Eusebius from the 3rd or 4th century says that both are genealogies of Joseph but one follows Joseph's legal genealogy (from Matthew); the other (from Luke) follows the biological lineage. This is due to the Jewish law which says a man can marry the widow of a brother who left no offspring and raise up children for that dead childless brother. Jacob and Eli are half brothers biologically. Eusebius says that the same thing happened in the next generation. Jacob and Eli were married to the same woman. Eli had died first. Jacob marries Jesus' grandmother and raises Joseph up as the legal heir of Eli, but Joseph is the biological son of Jacob. Thus a genealogy of law is not equal to genealogy of biology.
It looks like this.
Biological …………..………….Legal genealogy
Solomon …………….………..Nathan
|...…………………………………...|
Mattan-------Estha------ Melchi dies first
|...……………………..………………|
Jacob------------?--------- Eli (dies first)
|
Joseph

Eli dies Jacob marries Eli's Widow and Jacob raises Joseph as Eli's seed
according to Law
~~Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, (Grand Rapids: Baker Book
House, 1955), p.33

To me this is the best explanation for this I have ever heard.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Catfisher

Active Member
Apr 29, 2019
349
190
47
Waco
✟11,319.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
YEC seems to be a tragic result of one Bishop Usher, who attempted to date the Earth using Biblical genealogies, which often skipped generations where nothing notable occurred.

It's not Biblical, as far as I know.

Psalm 19 says:
1The heavens declare the glory of God
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
2 Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.
4 line has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.

I don't think God would create a universe that fools us into thinking it is old when it's not. And science and logic fairly confidently demonstrate the age.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Barbarian
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,059
11,385
76
✟366,396.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
To me this is the best explanation for this I have ever heard.

But that's not much different than "well, the two disagree, because one of them isn't really a genealogy."

If it's not factually true, having a reason for being not factually true, doesn't change anything.
 
Upvote 0

Gbob

Active Member
Site Supporter
Apr 28, 2019
80
37
74
College Station
✟56,139.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Both are factually true. One is legal according to Jewish law (remember they didn't see genealogies as mere biology) one is biological. You can't put your modern view into that culture and expect to understand what happened. This is often a mistake Biblical critics make.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,059
11,385
76
✟366,396.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Both are factually true.

No. A genealogy is about the ancestors of a person. So only one can be right.

One is legal according to Jewish law (remember they didn't see genealogies as mere biology)

Actually, they did. The question of "who is a Jew?" is settled by genealogy, not "legal" stories.

You can't put the modern definition into that culture and expect to understand what happened. And since you acknowledge that one of them isn't really about descent, then the other genealogies would also be legal stories. And hence couldn't be used to calculate ages of anything.

This is often a mistake YE creationists make.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Gbob

Active Member
Site Supporter
Apr 28, 2019
80
37
74
College Station
✟56,139.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No. A genealogy is about the ancestors of a person. So only one can be right.



Actually, they did. The question of "who is a Jew?" is settled by genealogy, not "legal" stories.

You can't put the modern definition into that culture and expect to understand what happened. And since you acknowledge that one of them isn't really about descent, then the other genealogies would also be legal stories. And hence couldn't be used to calculate ages of anything.

This is often a mistake YE creationists make.

There are legal facts; there are scientific facts; there are historical facts. They are not the same kind of fact. What you are doing is saying the only thing that matters is the biological fact. The legal descent was everybit as important to those people. Legal facts determined who Jesus would inherit from. I am at an end of our discussion here. There is no need for us to start a series of yes it is; no it isn't. That is why I left debating long ago and am beginning to regret coming back to it.
 
Upvote 0