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The Foreknowledge of God

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by JM, Apr 28, 2013.

  1. SeventhValley

    SeventhValley Guest

    +0
    Exodus 32:7-14

    New King James Version (NKJV)

    7 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. 8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’” 9 And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.”
    11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: “Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’”[a] 14 So the Lord relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

    Genesis 1:26

    New King James Version (NKJV)

    26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[a] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
     
  2. ChaseWind

    ChaseWind Guest

    +0
    And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. (Gen 6:6, KJV)

    From Matthew Poole:
    "Properly God cannot repent, Num 23:19 1Sa 15:11, 1Sa 15:29, because he is unchangeable in his nature and counsels, Mal 3:6 Jam 1:17, and perfectly wise, and constantly happy, and therefore not liable to any grief or disappointment. But this is spoken of God after the manner of man, by a common figure called anthropopathia, whereby also eyes, ears, hands, nose, &c. are ascribed to God; and it signifies an alienation of God's heart and affections from men for their wickedness, whereby God carries himself towards them like one that is truly penitent and grieved, destroying the work of his own hands.

    It grieved him at his heart, or, at his very soul, i.e. exceedingly."
     
  3. SeventhValley

    SeventhValley Guest

    +0
    The only way something could bother God is if a being he had a relationship with went against him in some way. So yes God apparently can be bothered "exceedingly" by human actions.
     
  4. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

    +391
    Baptist
    Married
    The point Chase was making is that when the Bible speaks of God's emotions it is a form of anthropomorphism, ie, speaking of God in human terms so that we, as humans, can understand him.

    For example, I'm in the hands of the Lord. But actually, the Lord has no hands. He is spirit. He doesn't have hands.

    God cannot repent in the way we understand repentance, because God cannot have been wrong about anything or change his mind about anything. His will always comes to pass (Eph 1:11, Daniel 4, Job, etc), therefore nothing can thwart his plans or go against his decree. Therefore when passing statements like the above happen we know that they are anthropomorphic.

    God can be saddened or angered at sin, because sin is contrary to his revealed will, but at the same time one could argue since God is soveriegn over everything, sin operates within the framework of God's sovereign decree. (example, Christ's crucifixion - the greatest sin in history - is said to be "God's predestined plan" in Acts 4:27-28).
     
  5. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

    +391
    Baptist
    Married
    Did God always know, even before he created the planet, that he would relent from the harm which He said he would do to his people?

    Yes or no?

    If No, then that's open theism, and a denial of God's omniscience, and should be dismissed as wrong.

    If Yes, then God relenting is exactly what was always going to happen. It was always God's plan and purpose, ie, God's decree that must come to pass, since God cannot know the future incorrectly.

    As I said, no matter which angle you approach this from, the end result and conclusion is that God does exactly what He always intended to do.
     
  6. ChaseWind

    ChaseWind Guest

    +0
    Dan 4:35 NRSV All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does what he wills with the host of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth. There is no one who can stay his hand or say to him, "What are you doing?"

    Doesn't sound much to me like a God who can be bothered in the human emotions manner. ;)
     
  7. SeventhValley

    SeventhValley Guest

    +0
    Yes and No. God must know all possible futures but leave which future to choose open to humans. If God predestines all then all sin is God's will and according to Jesus all who do the will of the Father are saved. Then it becomes Universalism,Antimonianism, or Deism.

    So the only possible solution is that God uses Voluntary Nescience.

    Philippians 2:5-8

    New King James Version (NKJV)

    The Humbled and Exalted Christ

    5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.


    Hebrews 2:9

    New King James Version (NKJV)

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
     
  8. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

    +391
    Baptist
    Married
    Proof? Evidence? Yet another assertion which you presuppose is true, then shape your whole argument around it.

    This is faulty logic because you are making a category error in confusing God's revealed will (What Jesus was talking about) with God's decretive will. There's a difference.
     
  9. SeventhValley

    SeventhValley Guest

    +0
    Lord Jesus us saying that human works can change the course of history. God allows this as part of his will otherwise it would not have happened. Here is another example.

    Exodus 13:17
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    17 Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, “Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.”
     
  10. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac Senior Member

    969
    +79
    Calvinist
    Single
    saying that things appear to change to humans is one thing... we are finite.... saying that changes surprise God, that He didn't know certain things were going to happen before they did, is completely different. Maybe something will come to pass that God didn't see coming, which will make your salvation impossible? After all, if He doesn't know the future perfectly and exhaustively, something could well come along that He did not foresee which will cause you (me, or anyone else) lost. He would have perhaps liked to have saved us... granted... but hey, what can you do? God just didnt see that circumstance coming... and thats just too bad for all concerned...
     
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