The Forefathers of the Salvation by Works Christians

Shimokita

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The atheist who fakes being Christian is a very sad soul. God will judge that person harshly.
We are all going to receive what is due for the evil we have done, but there are certainly worse things than faking belief for social approval (e.g. murder, rape, theft, etc.)
 
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Kenny'sID

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No, I think it is my turn for questioning. You chose to initiate an interaction with me, from what I recall. And I also do not recall stating any conclusions concerning your opinion on the matter. As we agree on the point above, I do not think there is anything left for us to discuss.

Yes I did initiate an interaction, what does that have to do with anything? I just don't understand the purpose of the comment.

And why is it your turn for questioning? You asked the last question, so I only thought it fair it was my turn.

No we do not agree, my answer was:

Of course not.

Most of your post makes no logical sense...to me anyway.

Anyway, I never expected you to answer, but it's clear you get my point, and thanks just the same.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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We are all going to receive what is due for the evil we have done, but there are certainly worse things than faking belief for social approval (e.g. murder, rape, theft, etc.)
All of which can be forgiven however faking being a Christian is a whole different story.
Blessings
 
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lsume

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So regarding salvation are you saying, as the Catholics seems to imply, that faith in Christ means trust in Christ to help you do good works which will qualify you to be saved?

If salvation is contingent upon works - yes even works of faith - then one's faith is in those works to save them. Such a soteriology is faith in works. In fact if such were the case one couldn't actually obey many of the commands. For most of the commands in the New Testament have to do with attitude. For example if you take something like "love you neighbor as yourself", if a person does so in order to be saved, as with the faith in works soteriology, one does not do so in love seeing as love is not love if self-interest is involved. Such Christians will try to appear to love, but in fact they're just acting in their own self-interest.
No work done by man other than Christ can save him. When Christ moves in, you will want to be obedient. Obedience is a measure of one’s faith. The more faith, the more obedient.
 
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Shimokita

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All of which can be forgiven however faking being a Christian is a whole different story.
Blessings
Faking being a Christian can be forgiven too.

And most of us are guilty of being a fake Christian at times, if we examine our lives objectively.
 
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fhansen

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It is impossible to be obedient without Christ.
Yes! "Apart from Me you can do nothing." This is the essence of the New Covenant. And this is exactly the truth Adam missed.
So regarding salvation are you saying, as the Catholics seems to imply, that faith in Christ means trust in Christ to help you do good works which will qualify you to be saved?

If salvation is contingent upon works - yes even works of faith - then one's faith is in those works to save them. Such a soteriology is faith in works. In fact if such were the case one couldn't actually obey many of the commands. For most of the commands in the New Testament have to do with attitude. For example if you take something like "love you neighbor as yourself", if a person does so in order to be saved, as with the faith in works soteriology, one does not do so in love seeing as love is not love if self-interest is involved. Such Christians will try to appear to love, but in fact they're just acting in their own self-interest.
We need to stand back and look at the big picture in all this. What is God meaning to accomplish with His creation? In some theologies God basically created man to inevitably sin, blamed him for sinning anyway, and at some later date places some of us worthless wretches in heaven and the rest in hell. Pretty much end of story. The heaven-bound elect were the fortunate predestined ones while the reprobate obviously not so fortunate.

In Catholic theology God created man as a noble and beautiful creature made in His own image (pretty much not contradicted at this point by most theologies) who failed to live up to the potential he was made for (a failure we can all readily observe in ourselves and others in this world daily). And God, knowing this would occur of course, had an overall plan in place from the beginning. From the larger perspective He had made His world in a "state of journeying towards an ultimate perfection” as the Catholic Catechism teaches. He had a plan-to produce something, something even better than He started with presumably. So all the intervening centuries of human joy and misery: pain and sin and suffering and death, between Eden and now make sense; it has a purpose, the purpose of helping educate us to receive Him, to develop a hunger and thirst for goodness and righteousness and for all that we missed by dismissing and abandoning Him, when the time was ripe. Man needs to realize just how much he needs God.

So is God’s purpose really to suddenly ignore justice in His wayward creation with the advent of Christ, by imputing that justice forensically? Or has his purpose always been to restore that justice, but in the right way finally?

Love is the true measure of man’s justice or righteousness. So Jesus gives us the Greatest Commandments, the first echoing Deut 6:5:
“Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.”
And the second applying that love also to neighbor
“Love your neighbor as yourself.”
All the other commandments are based on these two. And all the other commandments are fulfilled in these two.

And God is saying, with the Cross, “This is how much I love you, this is what I would endure for you, now do the same.”
“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19
And, “I forgive all, now do the same”
“For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” Matt 6:14-15

From the beginning God has been patiently working to bring man to this point, to the point of love. Had Adam been ready, had he chosen this path in Eden, perhaps characterized by eating of the Tree of Life instead of the other, our history could’ve presumably been very different. And yet we know it could’ve only gone the way it has.

Anyway, faith is meant to lead to this justice, this righteousness, this love, as faith re-establishes or constitutes communion with God who is love. We’re saved by faith, via faith, through faith. James was essentially saying that if faith doesn’t lead to and produce that kind of love then it remains dormant, dead, unproductive. Because love always acts, by its nature, producing the kind of behavior such as that which I mentioned in post #72. And Paul, likewise, understood well that love is the core and apex of the Christian faith as Rom 13 and especially 1 Cor 13 demonstrate. But love is easily overlooked and dismissed, as even God, Himself, is easily enough dismissed from Eden on, truth be known. “These people pay Me lip-service but their hearts are far from Me.” Is 29:13

So I can be circumcised, baptized, properly catechized and finally nicely eulogized after a life of obeying the commandants perfectly and even having a faith that can move mountains but if I have not love, I am nothing, Paul tells us. Augustine put it this way, “Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing.”

And consider this interesting truth. The Greatest Commandments are the only ones that cannot be faked, or done for the wrong reasons. I can obey all the others for all the wrong reasons but if I truly obey the command to love then I’ve “arrived”; my justice is complete. Love isn’t love if it’s pretended. The other commandments show us what love should “look like”. They just cannot cause us to love as we should; the Law cannot justify; only God can do that. “Apart from me you can do nothing.” And Basil of Cesarea, a 3rd century bishop, had this to say:

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for Him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

Anyway, we cannot assume that faith will lead to justice or righteousness without our continuous willing cooperation and participation in walking in that justice. Otherwise we’d be burying our talents. Faith does not replace righteous or justice in us, or stand in for it, or excuse us from the need for it, rather it’s the beginning of justice, the doorway to it because it’s the doorway to God.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Faking being a Christian can be forgiven too.

And most of us are guilty of being a fake Christian at times, if we examine our lives objectively.
I personally have never been a fake Christian just a disobedient one. In my mind a fake Christian is someone impersonating for personal monetary gains. Anyway, got your point!
 
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bcbsr

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Yes! "Apart from Me you can do nothing." This is the essence of the New Covenant. And this is exactly the truth Adam missed.

We need to stand back and look at the big picture in all this. What is God meaning to accomplish with His creation? In some theologies God basically created man to inevitably sin, blamed him for sinning anyway, and at some later date places some of us worthless wretches in heaven and the rest in hell. Pretty much end of story. The heaven-bound elect were the fortunate predestined ones while the reprobate obviously not so fortunate.

In Catholic theology God created man as a noble and beautiful creature made in His own image (pretty much not contradicted at this point by most theologies) who failed to live up to the potential he was made for (a failure we can all readily observe in ourselves and others in this world daily). And God, knowing this would occur of course, had an overall plan in place from the beginning. From the larger perspective He had made His world in a "state of journeying towards an ultimate perfection” as the Catholic Catechism teaches. He had a plan-to produce something, something even better than He started with presumably. So all the intervening centuries of human joy and misery: pain and sin and suffering and death, between Eden and now make sense; it has a purpose, the purpose of helping educate us to receive Him, to develop a hunger and thirst for goodness and righteousness and for all that we missed by dismissing and abandoning Him, when the time was ripe. Man needs to realize just how much he needs God.

So is God’s purpose really to suddenly ignore justice in His wayward creation with the advent of Christ, by imputing that justice forensically? Or has his purpose always been to restore that justice, but in the right way finally?

Love is the true measure of man’s justice or righteousness. So Jesus gives us the Greatest Commandments, the first echoing Deut 6:5:
“Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.”
And the second applying that love also to neighbor
“Love your neighbor as yourself.”
All the other commandments are based on these two. And all the other commandments are fulfilled in these two.

And God is saying, with the Cross, “This is how much I love you, this is what I would endure for you, now do the same.”
“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19
And, “I forgive all, now do the same”
“For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” Matt 6:14-15

From the beginning God has been patiently working to bring man to this point, to the point of love. Had Adam been ready, had he chosen this path in Eden, perhaps characterized by eating of the Tree of Life instead of the other, our history could’ve presumably been very different. And yet we know it could’ve only gone the way it has.

Anyway, faith is meant to lead to this justice, this righteousness, this love, as faith re-establishes or constitutes communion with God who is love. We’re saved by faith, via faith, through faith. James was essentially saying that if faith doesn’t lead to and produce that kind of love then it remains dead. Because love always acts, by its nature, producing the kind of behavior such as that which I mentioned in post #72. And Paul, likewise, understood well that love is the core and apex of the Christian faith as Rom 13 and especially 1 Cor 13 demonstrate. But love is easily overlooked and dismissed, as even God, Himself, is easily enough dismissed from Eden on, truth be known. “These people pay Me lip-service but their hearts are far from Me.” Is 29:13

So I can be circumcised, baptized, properly catechized and finally nicely eulogized after a life of obeying the commandants perfectly and even having a faith that can move mountains but if I have not love, I am nothing, Paul tells us. Augustine put it this way, “Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing.”

And consider this interesting truth. The Greatest Commandments are the only ones that cannot be faked, or done for the wrong reasons. I can obey all the others for all the wrong reasons but if I truly obey the command to love then I’ve “arrived”; my justice is complete. Love isn’t love if it’s pretended. The other commandments show us what love should “look like”. They just cannot cause us to love as we should; the Law cannot justify; only God can do that. “Apart from me you can do nothing.” And Basil of Cesarea, a 3rd century bishop, had this to say:

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for Him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

Anyway, we cannot assume that faith will lead to justice or righteousness without our continuous willing cooperation and participation in walking in that justice. Otherwise we’d be burying our talents. Faith does not replace righteous or justice in us, or stand in for it, or excuse us from the need for it, rather it’s the beginning of justice, the doorway to it because it’s the doorway to God.
In terms of the fictionalized justification the catholicism fantasies, their justification by works simply does hold up to the scrutiny of scripture. Take your reference to "love your neighbor". That's part of the Law of Moses Paul alludes to in a number of places such as

Gal 3:10-12 "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

There he's quoting Lev 18 which contains a list of the laws he's talking about include "love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18, and he makes the same reference in Romans 10 contrasting again justification by works versus justification by faith. Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." Rom 10:5 But the righteousness that is by faith says ... That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

So as for the Jews, so for the Salvation by Works Christians we can take the beginning of Romans 10 to say, Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Salvation by Works Christians that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness."
 
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bcbsr

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I've seen this topic many times before, invariably the arguments go endlessly in circles. What is being described in the OP isn't salvation, it's justification.
Eph 2:5,8 "it is by grace you have been saved." Since "saved" is in the past tense it's something already done. So if "saved" doesn't referred to having been justified - that is forgiven of sin - then what do you suggest "saved" refers to?

Secondly, are you as a Calvinist implying, like the Catholics, that the salvation is talking about is by works? Wouldn't that contradict the very context in which it is found "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Or what of Romans 10:9,10 "if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Again it uses "saved" in the past tense, but as a condition it mentions nothing of works, only faith. And notice he using justified and saved in the same sentence referring to the same event.

So do you go along with the Catholics claiming that salvation is by works?
 
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GodsGrace101

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In terms of the fictionalized justification the catholicism fantasies, their justification by works simply does hold up to the scrutiny of scripture. Take your reference to "love your neighbor". That's part of the Law of Moses Paul alludes to in a number of places such as

Gal 3:10-12 "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

There he's quoting Lev 18 which contains a list of the laws he's talking about include "love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18, and he makes the same reference in Romans 10 contrasting again justification by works versus justification by faith. Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." Rom 10:5 But the righteousness that is by faith says ... That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

So as for the Jews, so for the Salvation by Works Christians we can take the beginning of Romans 10 to say, Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Salvation by Works Christians that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness."
You are allowed to your beliefs, be they right or be they wrong...

But you are NOT allowed to come on these forums and spew out misconceptions you personally have about catholicism. YOU do not get to make catholic doctrine...the catholic church can do that very well with no input from you.

First of all you have no concept of the difference between justification and sanctification,,

Secondly, the catholic church believes we are justified the SAME WAY every other church does...
BY FAITH. Just like Ephesians 2:8 and Galatians 2:16 states: We are saved by faith and not by our works.

Please don't post something from the 1,500s, if you're going to look up anything, please make sure it's current and correct.

Following is the official teaching of the catholic church from the Catechism of the Catholic Church,paragrapsh 1987 - 1991

Please note that there are no works involved.



I. JUSTIFICATION

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34



But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35
1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36



[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Eph 2:5,8 "it is by grace you have been saved." Since "saved" is in the past tense it's something already done. So if "saved" doesn't referred to having been justified - that is forgiven of sin - then what do you suggest "saved" refers to?

Secondly, are you as a Calvinist implying, like the Catholics, that the salvation is talking about is by works? Wouldn't that contradict the very context in which it is found "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Or what of Romans 10:9,10 "if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Again it uses "saved" in the past tense, but as a condition it mentions nothing of works, only faith. And notice he using justified and saved in the same sentence referring to the same event.

So do you go along with the Catholics claiming that salvation is by works?
Again, catholics do not claim that salvation is by works.
 
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fhansen

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In terms of the fictionalized justification the catholicism fantasies, their justification by works simply does hold up to the scrutiny of scripture. Take your reference to "love your neighbor". That's part of the Law of Moses Paul alludes to in a number of places such as

Gal 3:10-12 "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

There he's quoting Lev 18 which contains a list of the laws he's talking about include "love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18, and he makes the same reference in Romans 10 contrasting again justification by works versus justification by faith. Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." Rom 10:5 But the righteousness that is by faith says ... That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

So as for the Jews, so for the Salvation by Works Christians we can take the beginning of Romans 10 to say, Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Salvation by Works Christians that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness."
Ok, guess Jesus was wrong then.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I personally have never been a fake Christian just a disobedient one. In my mind a fake Christian is someone impersonating for personal monetary gains. Anyway, got your point!
If a person has on on-going sin,,,he is in danger of losing his salvation..especially in a case like the one you bring up....since there would seem to be no remorse.
(You can forget my previous post to you,,,I didn't understand what you meant).
 
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klutedavid

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I do accept that statement. And all of Ephesians 2 for that matter. Ephesians 2:8-9 is Paul's summation of 2:1-7. In 2:1-7 he goes into detail to explain that salvation is not a reward for anything anyone may have done previously. He pointed out that the Ephesians had lived in sin prior to their conversion to prove that point. At Ephesians 2:10 he then explained what was required of them after their conversion.
But we are not discussing what follows after the reception of the Holy Spirit by the believer.

We are discussing the reason for our salvation.
 
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klutedavid

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Sins against the HS aren't forgivable, also sins like the examples I've mentioned shouldn't just be forgiven in a snap.
God has forgiven you in a snap, why should he also not forgive others in a snap?
 
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GodsGrace101

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But we are not discussing what follows after the reception of the Holy Spirit by the believer.

We are discussing the reason for our salvation.
KD, the reason for our salvation is know by every church.

I always fail to understand how this could be disputed.

We are saved by faith,,,in the O.T., in the N.T. No difference.

Some churches state that we also need baptism.
Jesus DID say that we are to be baptized....
it's just that some churches will state that if one dies unbaptized he will die lost --- I don't read this in the N.T.
 
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klutedavid

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I'm not sure about the sect you mentioned, or any other sects following along the lines set forth by it. Legalism was alive and well in religious groups and the human heart earlier I'm sure. In any case the Catholic Church, for its part, following Scripture and early Fathers does not find a righteousness that amounts to "filthy rags" in such works described in the following passages:

For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’
Matt 25:35-40

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Rom 2:7

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,...
Rom 8:13

For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Eph 2:10

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:3-5

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. James 1:27

Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Heb 11:12

Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.”

“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Rev 22:10-15

Virtually all of these passages and others teach that failing to do acts of righteousness, or committing acts of unrighteousness, will keep one from heaven/eternal life. These are works done according to the New Covenant, inspired by the Spirit, motivated by grace, driven by love to put it another way.
Correct, though it remains that Christ is the one who reconciled you to the Father.

We are discussing the reason for our salvation not what constitutes a sound Christian life based on love.

Romans 3:24
Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.
 
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klutedavid

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KD, the reason for our salvation is know by every church.

I always fail to understand how this could be disputed.

We are saved by faith,,,in the O.T., in the N.T. No difference.

Some churches state that we also need baptism.
Jesus DID say that we are to be baptized....
it's just that some churches will state that if one dies unbaptized he will die lost --- I don't read this in the N.T.
Some church movements teach that we are saved by faith plus works. Which undermines the reconciliation granted to us by Christ alone, which is administered by grace through faith.

We are always saved by the grace of God, freely given and freely received.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.
 
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