The Five Fold Ministries Cannot Function In Our Current Factionalised Church

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The five fold ministries of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher were designed to function in a church that was totally unified and all the regional churches in the then-known world totally complied with One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism. In our current church environment we have many Lords depending on the denomination's theology, a particular baptism for each denomination, often not transferrable between them, forcing the believer to be re-baptised when changing denominations, and many versions of the faith, also depending on that denomination's view of the Gospel and its theology.

What this means is that persons can view themselves as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors or teachers in their own denomination, but in all case, they are not recognised outside of their particular movement or denomination. This means that these ministries as part of the five fold ministries cannot function as they were designed by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not respect denominational labels, and therefore does not practice favouritism.

The Scripture says that the household of faith (the Christian church) is based on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. The problem is that one the last Apostle and Prophet died, that foundation ceased to exist. Because there are no general apostles and prophets recognised by the whole church, that foundation no longer exists. This means that our present factionalised churches have no secure foundation in the same way that the early unified church had.

Therefore the New Apostolic Restoration movement is man's mistaken view that the Holy Spirit has restored the five fold ministries to their particular movement. But the Holy Spirit's criteria for the restoration of the five fold ministries is that the denominational structures are done away with and the Christian church is restored to a totally unified body once more where there is truly one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism, and one God and Father over all.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Therefore the New Apostolic Restoration movement is man's mistaken view that the Holy Spirit has restored the five fold ministries to their particular movement.

Well I agree with that, but more from the stand point of how that model largely comes from Eisegesis and is mostly ahistorical. It is more based on what people believe should be true based on their views of the the Bible and their version of Sola Scriptura, rather than what we can see from all the historical testimony outside the Bible.

1) I just got to say in the New Testament age prophets are not as big as they were in the Old Testament. We see few examples in the New Testament, although the Didache does show there was an active prophetic itinerant ministry during the time of the New Testament and Apostolic Fathers.


2) Apostles are suppose to be emissaries of the King (God). The problem is what happens when they succeed in their mission and actually start the Church in the given region. Historically we know famous Apostolic Fathers like Ignatius of Antioch and other anonymous bishops took over, but that kind of fact cannot really be accepted by these people.

But there is this problem of what it means to really be an emissary, not just a general kind of a witness but thee witness sent by the King. And it is not just about power evangelism stuff, but also other little things like knowing what your talking about when you teach on things. And I just got to say, so many "apostles" I've seen do not look know what they are talking about, in fact I often know that as matter of fact. A good deal of them, including many of the women apostles, should be taking some kind of Catechism class rather than trying to teach.


I know of a few people that I think might have this gift. Ironically however, the people that are the best candidates won't tell you they are "Apostle so and so".

 

[Carl Emerson]

The five fold ministries of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher were designed to function in a church that was totally unified and all the regional churches in the then-known world totally complied with One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism. In our current church environment we have many Lords depending on the denomination's theology, a particular baptism for each denomination, often not transferrable between them, forcing the believer to be re-baptised when changing denominations, and many versions of the faith, also depending on that denomination's view of the Gospel and its theology.

What this means is that persons can view themselves as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors or teachers in their own denomination, but in all case, they are not recognised outside of their particular movement or denomination. This means that these ministries as part of the five fold ministries cannot function as they were designed by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not respect denominational labels, and therefore does not practice favouritism.

The Scripture says that the household of faith (the Christian church) is based on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. The problem is that one the last Apostle and Prophet died, that foundation ceased to exist. Because there are no general apostles and prophets recognised by the whole church, that foundation no longer exists. This means that our present factionalised churches have no secure foundation in the same way that the early unified church had.

Therefore the New Apostolic Restoration movement is man's mistaken view that the Holy Spirit has restored the five fold ministries to their particular movement. But the Holy Spirit's criteria for the restoration of the five fold ministries is that the denominational structures are done away with and the Christian church is restored to a totally unified body once more where there is truly one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism, and one God and Father over all.

Folks left Paul's Church there was a faction and Pauls Apostleship continued to function unhindered.

One could assume they were not elect - this is a fair argument.

Applying this to today, one could make the same claim (and it is made)

The RC church claims to be the gathering of the elect so why couldn't the Apostles function within this unity - same applies to any other church which is a gathering of the elect.

But wait...

The wheat and tares will always be with us so the argument falls apart.

For this reason I question the logic.

For me any group having a right relationship to Him and His purpose could have Apostles operating anointed by God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I know of a few people that I think might have this gift. Ironically however, the people that are the best candidates won't tell you they are "Apostles so and so".

How true...

 

[Ligurian]

The five fold ministries of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher were designed to function in a church that was totally unified
[...]
This means that our present factionalised churches have no secure foundation in the same way that the early unified church had.

Hey, what's wrong with having factions? Can Candor live cheek to jowl with Amity? Can Abnegation cuddle up with Dauntless? Why is it that only Erudite gets to travel alone?

But seriously,
Why does the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel teach AGAINST having other teachers, if there are not supposed to be factions?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Folks left Paul's Church there was a faction and Pauls Apostleship continued to function unhindered.

One could assume they were not elect - this is a fair argument.

Applying this to today, one could make the same claim (and it is made)

The RC church claims to be the gathering of the elect so why couldn't the Apostles function within this unity - same applies to any other church which is a gathering of the elect.

But wait...

The wheat and tares will always be with us so the argument falls apart.

For this reason I question the logic.

For me any group having a right relationship to Him and His purpose could have Apostles operating anointed by God.

The faction was within the Corinthian church. There is no record that any of the other churches had the same factional problems. And the type of faction involved whom each leader the different groups preferred. It is just the same as when I was with a Charismatic church in Palmerston North, people would find out who was preaching on Sunday evening to decide whether to come to church or not. But the Corinthian church itself did not separate from the body of Christ and become its own separate denomination.

If a group does decide to label some as apostles, they are not New Testament apostles. They are merely functioning as bishops over a number of participating churches who recognise the "apostolic" ministry.

We must always hold to the Biblical criteria for a genuine New Testament ministry, and not make up our own criteria on what we think it should be in our modern environment.

As you know the Catholic Apostolic Pentecostal Church of NZ is run by 12 "Apostles" (as is the Mormon church, by the way). But I don't subscribe to that denomination, so therefore I don't recognise them as apostles and having any level of ministry for me. But I do recognise Peter and Paul as Apostles, who are still performing their apostolic ministry to us today through what they have written as holy Scripture in the New Testament. They, including James, John, and Jude, are the only real Apostles recognised by all of the churches who value the New Testament as holy Scriptures.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hey, what's wrong with having factions? Can Candor live cheek to jowl with Amity? Can Abnegation cuddle up with Dauntless? Why is it that only Erudite gets to travel alone?

But seriously,
Why does the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel teach AGAINST having other teachers, if there are not supposed to be factions?

I just go along with what Paul said about them in 1 Corinthians - that those who keep to their own factions and do not fellowship with other areas of the body of Christ are carnal, babes in Christ who can be spoken to merely as men and not mature believers indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I was referring to 1 John 2

18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

How does your thesis embrace this event ?

 

[friend of]

Why does the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel teach against having other teachers, if there are not supposed to be factions?

Philippians 2:2
1 Corinthians 3:3

 

[sandman]

The five fold ministries of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher were designed to function in a church that was totally unified and all the regional churches in the then-known world totally complied with One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism. In our current church environment we have many Lords depending on the denomination's theology, a particular baptism for each denomination, often not transferrable between them, forcing the believer to be re-baptised when changing denominations, and many versions of the faith, also depending on that denomination's view of the Gospel and its theology.

What this means is that persons can view themselves as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors or teachers in their own denomination, but in all case, they are not recognised outside of their particular movement or denomination. This means that these ministries as part of the five fold ministries cannot function as they were designed by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not respect denominational labels, and therefore does not practice favouritism.

The Scripture says that the household of faith (the Christian church) is based on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. The problem is that one the last Apostle and Prophet died, that foundation ceased to exist. Because there are no general apostles and prophets recognised by the whole church, that foundation no longer exists. This means that our present factionalised churches have no secure foundation in the same way that the early unified church had.

Therefore the New Apostolic Restoration movement is man's mistaken view that the Holy Spirit has restored the five fold ministries to their particular movement. But the Holy Spirit's criteria for the restoration of the five fold ministries is that the denominational structures are done away with and the Christian church is restored to a totally unified body once more where there is truly one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism, and one God and Father over all.

While I understand what you are saying …You are looking at the church as a denominational structure… It is not….. as noted in context.

The household of faith is not based upon…. It is built upon ….as noted in verse 20.

We, the saints are members …. not of a building or denomination. we are the church of the body of Christ, the holy naos …the called of God. Individually we are the tabernacle…as a group we are the body a building not made with hands ( 2Co 5:1)


Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple (naos) in the Lord:

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


As noted in the following verses …there is no way that these have ceased.

Man does not decide gift ministries. They are given to man by God due to the level of commitment and service an individual displays..... And you will know them when you see them.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I was referring to 1 John 2

18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

How does your thesis embrace this event ?

I don't see anywhere in 1 Corinthians where any of the ones who preferred either Cephas, Apollos, or Christ as their mentors, actually left the church.

1 John 2 does not refer to those within a church who may prefer one Bible teacher over another, such as was happening in the Corinthian church. John's letter was in opposition to the Gnostic heresy that was invading the church at the time. There was another heresy invading the church - the Arian heresy. We can see both in the teaching of the Prosperity teachers. These heretics were, and still are, the antichrist that John was referring to. The ones who preferred their favourite Bible teacher in the Corinthian church were not heretics. We have seen posts by those on this forum who would rather accept the words of Christ over the teaching of Paul. They are not being antichrist heretics who are departing from the body of Christ. It is just that they put their priority on the teaching of Christ over Paul.

There are three rules concerning interpretation of Scripture.
1. Context
2. Context
3. Context.

The context of both 1 Corinthians and 1 John show totally different and separate issues in the church, and the one cannot be used to describe the other.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Philippians 2:2
1 Corinthians 3:3

Further exposition of these verses in context and explanation of how they are relevant, are required.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

While I understand what you are saying …You are looking at the church as a denominational structure… It is not….. as noted in context.

The household of faith is not based upon…. It is built upon ….as noted in verse 20.

We, the saints are members …. not of a building or denomination. we are the church of the body of Christ, the holy naos …the called of God. Individually we are the tabernacle…as a group we are the body a building not made with hands ( 2Co 5:1)


Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple (naos) in the Lord:

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


As noted in the following verses …there is no way that these have ceased.

Man does not decide gift ministries. They are given to man by God due to the level of commitment and service an individual displays..... And you will know them when you see them.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Firstly, quoting a series of isolated verses away from their context doesn't reflect what the author of each verse is actually saying what you are proposing.

My next point is that because the true church is made up of all those who God knows who are His, regardless of their denominational label, the Apostolic ministries of Paul, Peter, John, James, and Jude are fully recognised and these Apostles are still teaching and encouraging them in the faith.

But someone from the New Apostolic Restoration movement labelling himself as an apostle to the body of Christ, is in error, because he is not being a true Apostle of Christ, not having the criteria that qualifies a person to be an apostle. But we have the true apostolic ministry in the pages of the New Testament.

 

[friend of]

The apostle Paul has stated throughout the New Testament that we are not to have factions and warring between brethren. I thought that would have been obvious enoigh

 

[Ligurian]

Hey, what's wrong with having factions? Can Candor live cheek to jowl with Amity? Can Abnegation cuddle up with Dauntless? Why is it that only Erudite gets to travel alone?

But seriously,
Why does the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel teach AGAINST having other teachers, if there are not supposed to be factions?

I just go along with what Paul said about them in 1 Corinthians - that those who keep to their own factions and do not fellowship with other areas of the body of Christ are carnal, babes in Christ who can be spoken to merely as men and not mature believers indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, (ποιμένας) pastors and teachers;

Matthew 23:8-10 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master: Christ; and all ye are brethren.[9] And call no man your father upon the Earth: for one is your Father, which is in Heaven.[10] Neither be ye called teachers: for one is your Teacher: Christ.*

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one (ποιμήν) shepherd.*

poimen = of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively):--shepherd, pastor.

________________
* This is the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

While I understand what you are saying …You are looking at the church as a denominational structure… It is not….. as noted in context.

The household of faith is not based upon…. It is built upon ….as noted in verse 20.

We, the saints are members …. not of a building or denomination. we are the church of the body of Christ, the holy naos …the called of God. Individually we are the tabernacle…as a group we are the body a building not made with hands ( 2Co 5:1)


Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple (naos) in the Lord:

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


As noted in the following verses …there is no way that these have ceased.

Man does not decide gift ministries. They are given to man by God due to the level of commitment and service an individual displays..... And you will know them when you see them.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

I made an error. You did quote the Ephesians verses in context. I didn't read your post correctly.

You are correct in what Paul taught about the five fold ministries being the foundation on which the church is built, and that the function of the ministries continues until we all come into the unity of the faith and the fullness of Christ.

But, this did not eventuate in the early church. It became riddled with the Gnostic and Arian heresies, and within 200 years moved toward an Episcopalian system of Bishops, ultimately headed up by successive popes; and successive non-Biblical doctrines and traditions were added to it.

To date, the church in general hasn't recovered from it. Therefore the function of the Apostles and Prophets are still needed to guide us toward the unity of the faith and the fullness of Christ. This is why the ministries of Paul, Peter, John, James, and Jude are still essential for today's church. They are the only true foundational ministries, and cannot be added to, because they were the only Apostles that fit the criteria of having personally witnessed the resurrection of Christ, and been personally appointed by Him, and, in the case of Paul and Peter, had their ministry validated by genuine signs and wonders that went beyond just talk to actual demonstration.

No self-appointed Apostle meets those criteria and therefore cannot be the foundational ministry that Paul is talking about in Ephesians.

 

[Ligurian]

Hey, what's wrong with having factions? Can Candor live cheek to jowl with Amity? Can Abnegation cuddle up with Dauntless? Why is it that only Erudite gets to travel alone?
But seriously, why does the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel teach AGAINST having other teachers, if there are not supposed to be factions?

Philippians 2:2
1 Corinthians 3:3

2 Timothy 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Galatians 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, (ποιμένας) pastors and teachers;

True, and these are Paul, Peter, John, James and Jude. They are the only true apostles. And the only true prophets are the Old Testament ones who still speak to us through the pages of Scripture. Paul functioned as a true evangelist to the body of Christ (not the same as an evangelist just to add members to his own church), and Paul also functioned as a true Bible teacher. All subsequent Bible teachers use exposition of what the New Testament writers have already taught.

Matthew 23:8-10 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master: Christ; and all ye are brethren.[9] And call no man your father upon the Earth: for one is your Father, which is in Heaven.[10] Neither be ye called teachers: for one is your Teacher: Christ.

You have not specified who exactly Christ was speaking to here. It seems that He was speaking to unconverted Jews, and not Christian believers, because there were none yet. So I don't know how this verse fits. It seems that you are quoting it out of context.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one (ποιμήν) shepherd.

poimen = of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively):--shepherd, pastor.

I don't know why you are using this verse to make your point, whatever that is. Jesus was referring to the future inclusion of the Gentiles into the kingdom of God. This was fulfilled in the falling of the Holy Spirit on the household of Cornelius and the subsequent appointment of Paul to be the Apostle to the Gentiles.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

2 Timothy 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

How does this relate to the OP?

Galatians 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)

Just quoting verses without explaining how they fit into the topic of the thread just creates more questions than answers.

All these verses say to me is that Paul says that he has been appointed as the apostle to the Gentiles. He is still the apostle to the Gentiles today as he teaches us the things of God through his letters.

 

[friend of]

1 Corinthians 1:10