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The firmament of Genesis 1 assumes flat earth

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Tayla, Nov 4, 2017.

  1. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    I suppose your explanation can be a viable one but my question would be is the 5 degree variation in plane still be enough to account for the huge shadow cast by the earth given it's exponentially larger size? Another question that comes to my mind is how is it possible that we are able to view a full moon during the day time? The biggest problem in my mind though is a scriptural one. In the OT, in Joshua 10:12 Joshua commanded both the sun and the moon to stop their movement. He did not command the earth to stop its rotation. In the heliocentric model, the earth would have had to stop its rotation. And if the earth did stop its rotation, imagine the havoc on earth that would result. Note this explanation from NASA itself on what would happen if the earth's rotation stopped: "The probability for such an event is practically zero in the next few billion years. If the Earth stopped spinning suddenly, the atmosphere would still be in motion with the Earth's original 1100 mile per hour rotation speed at the equator. All of the land masses would be scoured clean of anything not attached to bedrock. This means rocks, topsoil, trees, buildings, your pet dog, and so on, would be swept away into the atmosphere."
    Obviously that didn't happen when Joshua commanded the sun and moon to stop. Nor did it happen when God caused the sun's shadow to go back ten steps on Ahaz's stairway as described in Isaiah 38:8. In this case the earth would have had to completely stop its rotation, start rotating in the opposite direction, stop a second time, then begin rotating in its normal rotation again. Both of these biblical accounts are only possible on a stationary earth.
     
  2. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    This of course completely ignores the fact that supernatural miracles do not conform to the natural laws. If God can stop and start the momentum of the earth's mass, He can certainly stop and start the momentum of the oceans and atmosphere, and every creature and loose object on the earth's surface as well. Why would anyone assume that God only paused the rotation of the ground and not everything else above it?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  3. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    That would certainly be possible but that in itself does not negate my claim. Does God negate the natural law when a person jumps off a building? The scripture plainly states that Joshua commanded both the sun and moon to stop. You can choose to believe otherwise.
     
  4. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur New Member

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    If I can help you out of the trap I think you have fallen into, it would make me happy.

    First, let me say that Genesis chapter one has logical rational explanations for it, but atheists would never accept this, Christians, perhaps.
    Genesis doesn't propose a different solar system than we already are familiar with. It is the earth that is slightly different. What needs to be understood, is that when atheists state things they are billions and billions of years old, and when Christians refer to them, they may not be quite so old.

    Here is a depiction of what the earth might have looked like back then:
    http://www.genesispark.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Vapor-Canopy-about-the-Early-Earth.png
    The world is round as it is in our minds. However, if you read Genesis, we see this:
    Rotherham:
    6 And God said, Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it be a means of dividing, between waters and waters, 7 And God made the expanse, and it divided between the waters that were under the expanse and the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so.
    ASV
    6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. ​
    Before this point, the earth was so super-heated that water couldn't condense out of the atmosphere and become seas and lakes. Now, God caused a canopy of water above to form that would function like a greenhouse where the heat is even throughout. Part of the water that condensed out became the canopy, and part the seas and lakes, all quite shallow compared to today.

    Does science tell us that we had warm temperatures in the polar regions?!
    Now, scientists would never agree with Christians that this is how the world looked before the deluge, but that we can say what science claims from the Bible and be right in the fact that it used to be like this - is another nail in the coffin of atheism.

    So, Genesis doesn't describe a flat earth, but an earth engineered to be pleasantly warm all over with perhaps natural variations.

    How and why do you think that scientists never have explained the global freezing of the millions of animals in the higher northern regions?! They cannot without the Bible's information. That is why.
     
  5. olusanya800

    olusanya800 Member

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    Hi there. My names David. I live in the UK. Your above description would be my understanding of what the bible is saying about the earth. I have been praying now for some time on this subject. Kind regards. David
     
  6. olusanya800

    olusanya800 Member

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    I agree that the bible is depicting a flat stationary earth all the ay through it. I dont think you can intepret what the bible is saying using the globe heliocentric model. It only really fits the geocentric model. Regards
     
  7. jhwatts

    jhwatts Junior Member Supporter

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    The writer of Genesis one makes a very strong point over and over in the first chapter of Genesis, the focus of the creation is upon the surface of the earth. This is significant, as there is a world in the earth. The earth no doubt has depth and is simply not a thin flat disk floating in space. Adams dominion is limited to the surface of the earth. Genesis 1:28

    Also notice in in Genesis 4:14 Cain is banished from the face of the earth. If he was banished from the face of the earth then he has either went from the face of the earth into space or into the earth. Read 14 carefully, scripture states he is going to be a vagabond in the earth. Nod is not on the surface, it is in the earth. The earth has depth and volume and not just a floating disk.
     
  8. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Sheol/Hades is under the surface of the flat earth. "...that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth," Phil 2:10.
     
  9. jhwatts

    jhwatts Junior Member Supporter

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    Philippians 2:10 (KJV) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    I see the text you are using has a simple modifications to lead you away from the ancient truth. This change is not by accident but done to slowly muddy the waters. Spend more time in the Bible comparing modern translations to early English translation and you will see modern translations are slowly moving away from the language that discusses the world below. This is not by accident.
     
  10. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Feel free to provide your interpretation/rationale of this verse.
     
  11. olusanya800

    olusanya800 Member

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    I would offer that the line 'in the earth suggests we are in an enclosed system such as a disc covered by a dome / firmamant as in the genesis creation account otherwise the inspired writer may have said 'on' the earth. Under the earth suggests there is a definite up and definite down. This does not lend support to the heliocentric globe model and points us to a geocentric flat eart model.
     
  12. jhwatts

    jhwatts Junior Member Supporter

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    In short, it seems the intent is to show all are accountable. Those who are in heaven, on the the earth, and logically following under the earth or in the ground. It's a stretch here to assume under the earth implies on the other side of it.

    See Mathew 12:40. This verse gives the picture that Christ traveled deep in the ground and not simply underneath it(as if it was a flat disk). This verse also implies that the heart of the earth is its center.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  13. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    If you are familiar with the geocentric flat earth model, it is composed of earth as a flat disc but the surface has some depth underneath it which would account for Sheol, Tartarus, Hades. How deep is anyone's guess. Thus the earth is not a sphere but neither is it a pancake either. No where in Phil 2:10 does it reference a center of the earth. The text simply references 3 locations: heaven, on the earth and under the earth. We take at face value the first two without question. The last reference most likely references the abode of the dead known in Hebrew as Sheol which is under the earth. Matt 12 does refer to a center (Greek kardia) of the earth from which we get the English word cardio for heart. Heart can mean seat of emotions, inner part, center, etc. The word in and of itself need not necessarily imply the exact physical center of an object.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  14. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    I believe in the geocentric model as I think that is what Scripture teaches and there are too many contradictions in the heliocentric model. In Phil 2:10 there is no reference to IN the earth. Only ON the earth and UNDER the earth.
     
  15. jhwatts

    jhwatts Junior Member Supporter

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    I'm not sure that under the earth is to be taken literally as underneath the earth. Here is an example.

    Job : (1-6) 1 Surely there is a vein for the silver, and a place for gold where they fine it. 2 Iron is taken out of the earth, and brass is molten out of the stone. 3 He setteth an end to darkness, and searcheth out all perfection: the stones of darkness, and the shadow of death. 4 The flood breaketh out from the inhabitant; even the waters forgotten of the foot: they are dried up, they are gone away from men. 5 As for the earth, out of it cometh bread: and under it is turned up as it were fire. 6 The stones of it are the place of sapphires: and it hath dust of gold.

    The context here is clearly describing many things but as we see that the context is describing various minerals and they are being described as from the inside of earth (Job 1:2). It is also recognizing that under the surface the minerals are molten and that is there origin. In general, this scripture is recognizing minerals are from under the earths surface (Job 1:5) and not physically underneath the earth.

    To assume under the earth in scripture is underneath the bottom of the earth is not really correct. The frame of reference being conveyed needs to be considered. Take for instance, Job 1 describing Satan and Job in the earth. In this the frame of reference is from outside the earth (in heaven) and so it makes sense for the author to mean inside or on the face of the earth. We see that Job lives on the face of the earth. This is based on additional context describing his inhabitance in the book of Job

    When looking at Cain being banished from the face of the earth, it says is being banished from the face of earth and must be one of two options, into space or into the earth. Scripture states he was banished in the earth.
     
  16. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you that context is important. Therefore it is important to first look specifically at the context within the particular verse in question instead of citing other verses in their own contexts as that may be the equivalent of comparing apples with oranges.
    That being said, when we look at Phil 2:10 we notice 3 locations: in heaven, on the earth and under the earth. This verse plainly states the EVERY KNEE will bow at those locations - no exceptions. It is not difficult to believe that there are persons under the earth as Hebrew belief/teaching is that the abode of the dead is located under the earth in Sheol. Jesus himself referred to this place when he recounted the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Lk 16:19-31. Ironically you cite Job to support your belief that there are no persons under the earth but another passage in Job conflict with your view.
    Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:13
    Or from Genesis:
    All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, “No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.” Thus his father wept for him. Gen 37:35
    Or from Numbers:
    But if the Lord creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord.” Num 16:30
    So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. Num 16:33

    Or from 1 Samuel:
    The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. 1 Sam 2:6
    Or from Psalms:
    For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption. Ps 16:10
    These are just a few of the many passages in the OT that refer to the dead souls in Sheol which is located somewhere under the earth.
     
  17. jhwatts

    jhwatts Junior Member Supporter

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    My argument is not that there is no hell in the earth. It has been here from the start Ezekiel 31 and I am well aware that scripture points to many things and beings under the surface. My point is that the use of the words under the earth do not imply below a flat disk floating in the air but rather below the ground directly. All of these references you have cited do not include any context with the words under, under the earth, or underneath the earth in them and therefore say nothing about a world underneath a flat earth. The describe a world inside a earth not under it.

    I am seeing your whole basis of a flat earth argument hinging on one verse (Phil 2:10) that is really out of logical context. Again, in heaven, on the earth, and under its surface.

    I gave a direct example in Job showing that in scripture when under the earth is used it is describing under the surface of the ground and not under a floating disk.

    I don't think I would base my entire argument on that verse.
     
  18. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Did I not show you that Phil 2:10 is backed up by numerous OT scriptures that there is a world under the earth inhabited by the dead? Given that fact the germane question is, is the earth a flat disc or a sphere? Can you point out any scriptures in the OT or NT that describe the earth as an orb/sphere? If so please cite them. Your opinion (and mine) must be backed by scriptural evidence.
    The scriptures describe a flat earth.
    It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. Isa 40:22
    Was Isaiah describing a flat circle or was he describing an orb? Or did he not know the difference?
    He will roll you up tightly like a ball and throw you into a large country. There you will die and there the chariots you were so proud of will become a disgrace to your master's house. Isa 22:18
    Apparently Isaiah did indeed know the difference between a flat circle [khûg] and a round ball [dûr] as he chose to use two different Hebrew words to describe both. He used the word khûg to describe the earth as a flat circle. He could have chosen to use dûr but he did not as the earth is not shaped like a spherical ball.
     
  19. JackRT

    JackRT Well-Known Member Supporter

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    All in all, I find there no doubt that the Bible describes a flat earth cosmology. On the other hand science based on observational evidence describes a spherical earth in a heliocentric cosmology. This is not a problem for me nor is it for the majority of Christians who do not view the Bible as literal or inerrant.
     
  20. Michiqan

    Michiqan New Member

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    Something that I want to add:
    Nasa in Hebrew translates to deception or to decieve

    Speed of earth's orbit around the sun: 66,600 mph
    Curvature is 0.8 inch per square mile = .666ft per square mile (8/12)
    Earths tilt is 23.4 degrees off of center
    90 minus 23.4 = 66.6 degrees

    It's quite difficult, if not impossible, to prove the heliocentric model without the government, the military, or NASA - all which aren't historically the most trusted sources.

    Praise Yah
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
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