The finished work of Christ

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bloodygrace

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Jesus will never go to the cross and die again so what he accomplished 2000 years ago is perfect, finished and complete. Ellen spoke of Christ's most holy place phase in the heavenly sanctuary as a 'sealing time'. It adds nothing to what he already accomplished but seals or fixes the characters that the saved have developed. I'm a former Adventist so I know your theology better than you. How do you think I can rip it apart so easily? Ellen did say your worst enemies will come from within. Maybe she was talking about me! LOL
 
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BobRyan

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If you study the day of atonement ceremony the sacrifice was still offered in the courtyard and then the blood was brought into the most holy indicating that Christ's sacrificial death is the basis for any cleansing of the most holy.

All the sacrifices collapsed into one - Christ "our passover has been slain" 1 Cor 5. But he is also the sacrifice of the Day of Atonement and of all the sin offerings etc. All sacrifices collapse into that one. "Else he would have had to offer up himself many times" Hebrews 9.


Christ's work of atonement on the cross is still perfect, finished and complete - it is the "Atoning sacrifice" 1 John 2:2

AND THEN as Hebrews 8:1 points out - Christ begins his work as our high priest in heaven - after he ascends to heaven.

These Bible texts were NOT written by Ellen White -- Ellen never told you that because she had passed away by the time you were born - but she did not write those texts. More bible, christianity - less false accusation and slander please.

Jesus will never go to the cross and die again

That is true - but also -- that is not the debated point.

The "atoning sacrifice" that he accomplished 2000 years ago is perfect, finished and complete

so what he accomplished 2000 years ago is perfect, finished and complete.

Indeed there are only sooo many ways to keep agreeing on the same point over and over again.

Ellen spoke of Christ's most holy place phase in the heavenly sanctuary as a 'sealing time'.

You have changed the subject.

It adds nothing to what he already accomplished

There is not "more suffering going on in heaven to add to the suffering of the atoning sacrifice" completed once for all 2000 years ago.

As stated -- there are only sooo many ways to keep agreeing on the same point over and over again regarding the completed "atoning sacrifice" of 1 John 2:2 completed 2000 years ago at the cross.

Hint in Lev 16 the larger topic of ATONEMENT must include BOTH the work Christ as the Lamb of God - the atoning SACRIFICE of 1 John 2:2, and ALSO the work of Christ as High Priest - as we see in Hebrews 8:1. BOTH are necessary - BOTH must be complete before the larger view of ATONEMENT is complete. Calvinists see only the "Atoning Sacrifice" and once that is complete they leave class early failing to notice the work of Christ as High Priest in Lev 16 definition of Atonement.



but seals or fixes the characters that the saved have developed. I'm a former Adventist so I know your theology better than you.

A doubtful statement on a number of counts.

Ellen did say your worst enemies will come from within. Maybe she was talking about me! LOL

I think you have yet to provide substance at that level.

It is one thing to claim it -- it is another to be able to actually do it.

Details matter.

My guess is that you are unwittingly trying to insert some calvinism into the subject of atonement but have not yet realized it. Having already had this discussion with a number of Calvinists -- I will wait for the point to unfold to demonstrate it to you.
 
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bloodygrace

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The atonement as is understood by Christianity is what Christ accomplished on the cross. The day of atonement in the OT sanctuary service is something else entirely. You are blending these two things and making the atonement into half what happened on the cross and half what happens in the most holy of the heavenly sanctuary. You cannot do this! When you present this kind of message you leave people in doubt as to whether they are saved or not with the cross not being sufficient. Hebrews 9 & 10 refutes all this anyway.
 
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BobRyan

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Hint in Lev 16 the larger topic of ATONEMENT must include BOTH the work Christ as the Lamb of God - the atoning SACRIFICE of 1 John 2:2, and ALSO the work of Christ as High Priest - as we see in Hebrews 8:1. BOTH are necessary - BOTH must be complete before the larger view of ATONEMENT is complete. Calvinists see only the "Atoning Sacrifice" and once that is complete they leave class early failing to notice the work of Christ as High Priest in Lev 16 definition of Atonement.

The atonement as is understood by Christianity is what Christ accomplished on the cross.

Well God tells us it certainly "includes that" in Lev 16 - but then He also says it includes the work of Christ as our High Priest.

Calvinists "need" to ignore the details in Lev 16 where God gives His own teaching on the subject "The Day of Atonement" -- just as you are doing. I don't need to do that since I am not Calvinist. I have the Bible.

Non-Calvinist Christians - who accept the Bible over man-made tradition are free to accept Bible details instead of rejecting them.

Rejecting God's teaching on the "Day of ATONEMENT" and clinging to a Calvinist teaching instead is something you may 'need to do' - but I don't "need" that. I will stick with the Bible on this one. Thank you. After all in Hebrews 8:1 Paul says it is the "main point"

you have free will - you can reject that part of the Bible if you "need to" -- I don't need to do it. I prefer the Bible.

So now let me guess - this part where you need to reject the Bible teaching on atonement in Lev 16 -- God's own instruction on the subject... is this supposed to be some sort of "problem" for those of us who can take the Bible "instead" of having the problem you are having at that point???
 
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bloodygrace

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OK Bob, you have the stage. What is Christ currently doing in the most holy of the heavenly sanctuary? Articulate your beliefs, give me details, what is happening up there and how does it affect me down here? Christians have been saved by trusting in the cross for 2000 years but now it seems I need this extra truth to be saved.
 
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BobRyan

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OK Bob, you have the stage. What is Christ currently doing in the most holy of the heavenly sanctuary? Articulate your beliefs, give me details, what is happening up there and how does it affect me down here? Christians have been saved by trusting in the cross for 2000 years but now it seems I need this extra truth to be saved.

I see - so then you want to talk about what Paul calls "the main point" in Hebrews 8:1. The work of Christ as our High Priest in heaven.

Nice!

The Atonement of Lev 16 includes both the work of Christ as the Lamb of God - slain as he who "takes away the sin of the world" --- but it does not end at the cross - nor does Lev 16 end as soon as the Lord's goat is slain.

Rather all the work of the High Priest typified by events that happen after the Lord's goat is slain on the Day of Atonement - must be complete -- according to God in Lev 16 - before the full Bible context for Atonement is complete.

Calvinists miss this entirely - and since they have completed atonement 2000 years ago - and because they are not also universalists (they don't believe everyone goes to heaven) -- they are stuck with "limited atonement at the cross" - Where Christ dies for some folks - those whom He saves -- but not for others.

The flaw is not a "matter of preference" or whim on their part - the flaw is in their doctrine , their limited concept of atonement. The Bible says it includes both the work of Christ as the lamb of God AND the work of Christ as our High Priest (what Paul calls the "Main point").

Hebrews 7 tells us the that the High Priest stands daily offering up sacrifices to God - but in Hebrews 9 and 10 we are informed that Christ offered up one sacrifice for all time.

Heb 7
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

The high priest works all through the daily service and then does a special work at the end of the year in the Day of Atonement service.

Christ went to heaven to begin his work as our high priest in the daily service as Hebrews 9 points out - but now we are in the Day of Atonement phase of His work - and judgment of the world has begun just as everyone admits is done in that Day of Atonement service.

Both Jews and Christians affirm that the symbolism in the Day of Atonement include the concept of God judging all the world.

1 John 2:1 says that as along as Christ is in that role as our High Priest and mediator -- we have the offer of forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 9 says that Christ's work is to cleanse us from sin. So then we have both forgiveness and cleansing from sin just as 1 John 1:9 says.

Paul says in 2 Cor 5:10 that in the future "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ".

Romans 2:4-16 describes how decisions will be made in the future "when according to my GOSPEL God will judged all men"

Daniel 7:22 describes the conclusion of that judgment "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

This judgment reveals what is - it does not change what-is.
No one goes into the judgment saved and comes out lost.
No one goes into the judgment lost and comes out saved.

The tree is not changed "by looking at at" in Matt 7.

Rather the fruit shows what kind of tree it is - but looking at the fruit does not change the tree.
 
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BobRyan

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OK Bob, you have the stage. What is Christ currently doing in the most holy of the heavenly sanctuary? Articulate your beliefs, give me details, what is happening up there and how does it affect me down here? Christians have been saved by trusting in the cross for 2000 years but now it seems I need this extra truth to be saved.

Noah - exactly what are you saying? I have accept salvation and the promise of the coming Messiah - but now you are doing what? building a boat? Are you saying I need this extra truth to be saved?

John - exactly what are you saying? I have accept the scriptures and salvation and am a member of the one-true-nation-church started by God at Sinai and the promise of the Messiah - but now you are saying that there is a Carpenter in Nazareth - the OT says nothing about a Carpenter being the Messiah. Are you saying I need this extra truth to be saved?

Paul - exactly what are you saying? I have accepted Christ as my savior and his death burial and resurrection but now you say that a great apostasy is coming, you say that gentiles do not need to become Jews and worship in the temple, you are saying the Jewish nation as God's special evangelist is over -- are you saying I need this extra truth to be saved?

Matt 16 Peter says - "Jesus exactly what are you saying. I have already told you that while others reject you - I am one of those who confesses you are indeed the Christ the Son of God... but now you say you are going to Jerusalem to be crucified. Are you saying I need this extra truth to be saved? John the baptizer did not preach this!"

In every example they followed 'the Truth" they followed Jesus "up to a point' but then Jesus has "the next truth" and the "next step" and they draw a line - no longer do they want to "Follow Jesus".

The entire Day of Atonement message is about "following Jesus AFTER the Cross" all the way to the 2nd coming - just when many want to keep him right there resurrected on week-day-1 but not doing one thing more. Not having one more step for people to follow.

In 2Thess 2 Jesus tells us that those who perish at the end of time - perish "because they did not receive a LOVE of the truth"
 
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BobRyan

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So was the cross sufficient to save all the saints for the past 2000 years who did not believe in a most holy place phase of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary?

Was the Cross sufficient to save all the Jews and saints who for 4000 years did not know that Christ was going to be the son of a Carpenter or that he would die on the cross?

If it was - does it make those details irrelevant?

The Jews failed to follow the Messiah to the cross - and it cost them. Times of ignorance in the past being winked at - but then calling all men everywhere to repent.

Some Christians fail to follow Christ to the Most Holy Place - where the LAW of God is being promoted and times of ignorance in the past being winked at - but now calling all men everywhere to repent.

"If you were blind you would have no sin - but you say you see - your sin remains" John 9

The MHP ministry is a restoration of the breach - upholding the LAW of God and rejecting sin. It is the death of cheap grace and the full disclosure of the Bible concept of the New Covenant where the LAW of God is written on the heart.

The entire Day of Atonement message is about "following Jesus AFTER the Cross" all the way to the 2nd coming - just when many want to keep him right there resurrected on week-day-1 but not doing one thing more. Not having one more step for people to follow.

In 2Thess 2 Jesus tells us that those who perish at the end of time - perish "because they did not receive a LOVE of the truth"
 
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BobRyan

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the current Sabbath School quarterly is on the book of Job. Satan's challenge in chapters 1 and 2 has to do with the fact that both Satan and Job have sinned - but in the case of Job - he is being saved under the Gospel - and Satan is not.

Satan's argument is that the Gospel does not work -- that it is little more than bribery and that Job is every bit the same lost sinner as he was before - as unchanged as Satan is unchanged. He argues that God is unjust and arbitrary in choosing to offer salvation to Job - the Gospel for Job -- a Gospel that God claims transforms the sinner into a saint - but Satan argues that it does no such thing. It merely bribes the sinner to engage in some improved behavior. A bribe that Satan himself might be interested in taking if it were offered him.

God's argument is that the Gospel does work - that the LAW of God is written on the heart and mind and that the sinner is not simply "bribed to behave better" but rather that a transformation occurs - the sinner has become the saint.

In Rev 15:8 the time comes when the sanctuary in heaven shuts down -- so that the 7 last plagues of Rev 16 can be poured out. The "ONE mediator" between God and man steps out of the sanctuary -- the wrath of God is poured out. The saints of God are in His shelter prepared for them - but they have no more mediator in the sanctuary pleading His blood for them. That work is done. If they sin - they are as one in heaven - sinning.

There will be no "Christ dying on the cross" in heaven - for saints in heaven sinning. And God starts that phase while men are still living on earth - in Revelation 15:8 before the 7 last plagues start.

Those who like Noah have entered the ark of safety will survive that world-wide-flood of plagues - where there is no more blood of the atonement to forgive sin, no High Priestly mediatorial work of Christ in the MHP pleading his blood for newly committed sin.
 
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BobRyan

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Bob, the bible says that love is the fulfilling of the law and you don't preach grace in any shape or form. So you are wrong on both counts. Cheap grace would be a step up from what you have.

A mere diatribe pile of false accusations as you have posted - does not "substance make" -- why would anyone go for that sort of nonsense??

You are posting in an Adventist forum -- simply 'venting your spleen' is not going to convince anyone of anything other than you simply "don't like" Adventists.

You are free to "not like" whatever you wish.

We are not arguing about your preferences or wishes. We are discussing actual Bible topics.
 
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BobRyan

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Love is the fulfilling of the law and Christians are under grace today. You are wrong on both counts.

Love is not the negating of the law -- you are wrong in your conclusion.

Matt 22 pre-cross when every critic of God's Word and God's Law would agree that the law is in effect - shows Christ and the Jews agreeing that the Lev 19:18 law to "love your neighbor" and the Deut 6:5 law to "Love God" does not in any way negate the command to "not take God's name in vain" or any other part of God's Word --- and we all know it.

Bible details matter. Simply saying 'you're wrong' while ignoring Bible details - proves nothing.

Even your own pro-sunday scholars admit that all TEN of the TEN Commandments apply to Christians just as we see Paul arguing in Ephesians 6:2 where the unit of LAW being upheld is specifically the TEN commandments.

You need an objective, compelling Bible-solid position to present if you want an objective, compelling argument.
 
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bloodygrace

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The scribes and Pharisees were experts at keeping the law but they had no love for their fellow man. An outward obedience is worth nothing in God's eyes because even atheists who reject God and Christ can live moral and respectable lives on the outside. Atheists can keep the commandments, Bob! It's not that hard. But they can't believe in Jesus and they can't express God's love. Should tell you something there buddy.
 
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The scribes and Pharisees were experts at keeping the law but they had no love for their fellow man.

The Bible does not say they were experts at keeping the LAW of God. In fact Romans 2 says they were doing the exact opposite as does Christi in Mark 7:6-13.

The wild fiction that the lost are really good at not sinning is never a point made in the actual Bible.

in fact in Romans 8:4-9 God says that it is the lost that "do not submit to the LAW of God - neither indeed CAN they"

Romans 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Bible details matter.
 
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bloodygrace

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Atheists can keep the commandments with a little will power. That's how SDA have been doin' it for 150 years! Good old fashioned elbow grease.

Ellen lied to you and you believed her and got brain-washed. When we boil this problem down it's one of faith. You believe her over the bible.
 
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BobRyan

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The scribes and Pharisees were experts at keeping the law but they had no love for their fellow man.

The Bible does not say they were experts at keeping the LAW of God. In fact Romans 2 says they were doing the exact opposite as does Christi in Mark 7:6-13.

The wild fiction that the lost are really good at not sinning is never a point made in the actual Bible.

in fact in Romans 8:4-9 God says that it is the lost that "do not submit to the LAW of God - neither indeed CAN they"

Romans 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Bible details matter.

Atheists can keep the commandments with a little will power. That's how SDA have been doin' it

God say "A" in Romans 8:4-9 you immediately shoot back with "on the contrary -- B".

You have free will - you can do as you please.
 
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We keep the holy and spiritual law of God by having God's love with compassion, mercy, patience, forgiveness etc. Not by doing this and not doing that. .

So then just making stuff up and ignoring the actual Word of God??

By contrast -- notice the "Bible details"


In Matt 22 Jesus affirms OT - LAW and scripture
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18
Matt 22 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Matt 22
34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ (Deut 6:5) 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ (Lev 19:18) 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

The firm foundation for the LAW and the prophets - LOVE.

TEN COMMANDMENTS AFFIRMED in NT

Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said;Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life 17 And He said to him, Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments; 18 Then he *said to Him, Which ones? And Jesus said,
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;

and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself


"what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6
"If you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15

Matt 5
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

What law? The Law that condemns all mankind as sinners -

Rom 3

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

That same law - same chapter

"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31



Any part of scripture read could fall under that title.

Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

=================================

Rom 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.


Rom 13 NKJV
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery,
You shall not murder,
You shall not steal,
You shall not bear false witness,”
You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Rom 13 HCSB - Holman Bible
8 Do not owe anyone anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 The commandments:
Do not commit adultery;
do not murder;
do not steal;
do not covet;

and whatever other commandment—all are summed up by this: Love your neighbor as yourself.
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Love, therefore, is the fulfillment of the law.



Romans 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law.


13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
...
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

"Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4
"ALL have sinned" Romans 3:23

Both Jews AND Gentiles are explicitly included in Romans 2 --
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.


Eph 6: 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), -- the 5th commandment in that still-valid "unit of ten" is the "FIRST commandment with a promise.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, ou shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
Do not commit adultery
also said,
Do not commit murder.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty
 
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