The Fatima Apparitions

[Nicene Pilgrim]

Recently, we Catholics celebrated the 100th anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun, the final apparition of the Holy Mother to Sts Francesco, Jacinta, and Lucia in Fatima, Portugal. One of the primary "demands" of the Blessed Mother was that Russia be consecrated along with the World by the Pope and all of the Church's Bishops to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. According to Our Lady, Russia would be converted as a result. Though it's still widely debated whether this actually ever happened, many believe that St. John Paul II fullfilled the necessary requirements in his attempt at the consecration of Russia. Not long thereafter, Communism fell in Russia, and the Orthodox Church seems to be rebuilding there. Assuming all of this is true, what are the implications for Orthodox people if an action by the Roman Church effectively brought Orthodoxy back to Russia? It all seems very erroneous to both sides, when you consider that an action demanded of Catholics was accomplished, just to restore Russian Orthodoxy. Has there ever been any recognition of Fatima by the Orthodox Church?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Recently, we Catholics celebrated the 100th anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun, the final apparition of the Holy Mother to Sts Francesco, Jacinta, and Lucia in Fatima, Portugal. One of the primary "demands" of the Blessed Mother was that Russia be consecrated along with the World by the Pope and all of the Church's Bishops to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. According to Our Lady, Russia would be converted as a result. Though it's still widely debated whether this actually ever happened, many believe that St. John Paul II fullfilled the necessary requirements in his attempt at the consecration of Russia. Not long thereafter, Communism fell in Russia, and the Orthodox Church seems to be rebuilding there. Assuming all of this is true, what are the implications for Orthodox people if an action by the Roman Church effectively brought Orthodoxy back to Russia? It all seems very erroneous to both sides, when you consider that an action demanded of Catholics was accomplished, just to restore Russian Orthodoxy. Has there ever been any recognition of Fatima by the Orthodox Church?

we tend not to judge what happens outside of Orthodoxy, however, since Rome does not have a strong presence in Russia and we reject the Sacred Heart, I would say that it was false.

 

[Tomm]

we tend not to judge what happens outside of Orthodoxy, however, since Rome does not have a strong presence in Russia and we reject the Sacred Heart, I would say that it was false.

You reckon it was false?
Have you read the whole story including the secrets and prophecies before your judgement?

 

[ArmyMatt]

You reckon it was false?
Have you read the whole story including the secrets and prophecies before your judgement?

well, considering what was said about Russia was wrong, I reckon it was false. so, while I have not read the whole thing, when one of the more well known aspects is incorrect, I would say false.

I don't need to read all of the Koran to know it's false

 

[Tomm]

considering what was said about Russia was wrong

Why do you think it was wrong?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Why do you think it was wrong?

because Russia is not RC, and still rejects the Immaculate Heart

 

[ArmyMatt]

and I would also add, Russian saints predicted the rebound from Communism long before Fatima. so I don't think Rome had much to with it.

 

[prodromos]

The whole thing is an insult to the prayers of the thousands of martyrs in Russia.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Does saying that Russia would be converted ... not imply that it wasn't Christian?

Russia was/had been a strongly Christian country - it was just forced largely underground for a while.

From what I've heard, the descriptions of souls writhing in torment in hell, as the Virgin Mary was supposed to have shared with the children - doesn't square that well with an Orthodox understanding either.

But as Matt said, it's not our place to judge what happens outside the Church. I'm only saying - it puts me more in mind of a more Catholic understanding of a few centuries past.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Does saying that Russia would be converted ... not imply that it wasn't Christian?

Russia was/had been a strongly Christian country - it was just forced largely underground for a while.

From what I've heard, the descriptions of souls writhing in torment in hell, as the Virgin Mary was supposed to have shared with the children - doesn't square that well with an Orthodox understanding either.

But as Matt said, it's not our place to judge what happens outside the Church. I'm only saying - it puts me more in mind of a more Catholic understanding of a few centuries past.

I think the initial thinking was that Russia would join with the Pope. when that didn't happen, it became that Russia would become Christian again. JPII certainly had a hand in bringing down the Iron Curtain, but not with Russia's Christian resurgence. as you pointed out, the faithful remained.

 

[Nicene Pilgrim]

I think the initial thinking was that Russia would join with the Pope. when that didn't happen, it became that Russia would become Christian again. JPII certainly had a hand in bringing down the Iron Curtain, but not with Russia's Christian resurgence. as you pointed out, the faithful remained.

That's a fair point I suppose. I've never been told that it was implied that Russia would become Catholic, though I did think about that in my soul searching, why it was that God didn't make a Catholic boom happen in Russia, but instead Orthodoxy came back around as a public faith. Then again, we've got a pretty progressive view on the differences between the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church. St. John Paul II said that the East and the West were the two lungs of the Church after all. But that view about Orthodoxy is a recent development at best in the Church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's a fair point I suppose. I've never been told that it was implied that Russia would become Catholic, though I did think about that in my soul searching, why it was that God didn't make a Catholic boom happen in Russia, but instead Orthodoxy came back around as a public faith. Then again, we've got a pretty progressive view on the differences between the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church. St. John Paul II said that the East and the West were the two lungs of the Church after all. But that view about Orthodoxy is a recent development at best in the Church.

well, I would wonder then why Russia would be dedicated or whatever to Mary's Immaculate Heart, since Rome has that understanding and we don't. so how could the conclusion be anything other than Russia being Catholic if they are dedicated to a uniquely Catholic practice?

and yes, that view is very modern of us being the Two Lungs, which of course we reject.

 

[prodromos]

That's a fair point I suppose. I've never been told that it was implied that Russia would become Catholic, though I did think about that in my soul searching, why it was that God didn't make a Catholic boom happen in Russia, but instead Orthodoxy came back around as a public faith.

There is a Catholic magazine cover from that period which shows silhouettes of the Pope leading an army of priests and others marching with St Basil's in the background, the implication being that Russia would become a fertile mission field for Catholics. It demonstrated that Catholics clearly understood the Fatima promises to mean Russia would be converted to Catholicism. I think the magazine was called "30 days"

 

[Maryslittleflower]

Recently, we Catholics celebrated the 100th anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun, the final apparition of the Holy Mother to Sts Francesco, Jacinta, and Lucia in Fatima, Portugal. One of the primary "demands" of the Blessed Mother was that Russia be consecrated along with the World by the Pope and all of the Church's Bishops to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. According to Our Lady, Russia would be converted as a result. Though it's still widely debated whether this actually ever happened, many believe that St. John Paul II fullfilled the necessary requirements in his attempt at the consecration of Russia. Not long thereafter, Communism fell in Russia, and the Orthodox Church seems to be rebuilding there. Assuming all of this is true, what are the implications for Orthodox people if an action by the Roman Church effectively brought Orthodoxy back to Russia? It all seems very erroneous to both sides, when you consider that an action demanded of Catholics was accomplished, just to restore Russian Orthodoxy. Has there ever been any recognition of Fatima by the Orthodox Church?

I wouldn't say it's erroneous... it only sounds erroneous from the Catholic perspective if you think that the whole point was to bring Russia back to Orthodoxy and then forever keep the Schism. But maybe it's part of a process, ultimately resulting in the end of the Schism and meanwhile, bringing the Russian people to faith in God and Sacraments. In Catholic theology every grace comes through the Church, even graces given to non Catholics. The Russian people are closer to even the Catholic Church now than they were before and someday with the end of the Schism, this would be completed.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I wouldn't say it's erroneous... it only sounds erroneous from the Catholic perspective if you think that the whole point was to bring Russia back to Orthodoxy and then forever keep the Schism. But maybe it's part of a process, ultimately resulting in the end of the Schism and meanwhile, bringing the Russian people to faith in God and Sacraments. In Catholic theology every grace comes through the Church, even graces given to non Catholics. The Russian people are closer to even the Catholic Church now than they were before and someday with the end of the Schism, this would be completed.

the Russian people never lost their faith, though. and we are no closer to union with Rome at all.

 

[prodromos]

The Russian people are closer to even the Catholic Church now than they were before

Please explain how you come to this understanding?

 

[Maryslittleflower]

Please explain how you come to this understanding?

I'm not speaking of Church relations. There's something I read in a book that the more points a faith has in common with the Catholic Church, the better because God can use those true points to lead the person to the Church. I understand this presupposes that the Catholic Church is true and you would disagree, being Orthodox, but I'm trying to clarify my point. In terms of Orthodoxy, it's the closest of anything to Catholicism. That's what I meant that Russia is closer to Catholicism than it was - because Orthodoxy as a faith is closer to the Catholic Church (ie: has more in common) than anything else, especially Marxism.

 

[Maryslittleflower]

the Russian people never lost their faith, though. and we are no closer to union with Rome at all.

I didn't mean this in terms of Church relations.. just that the Orthodox have way more in common with Catholics than any other faith or especially atheism

My family is Russian... they grew up without any faith at all. There were Russians who kept their faith but they were few..

 

[prodromos]

I'm not speaking of Church relations. There's something I read in a book that the more points a faith has in common with the Catholic Church, the better because God can use those true points to lead the person to the Church. I understand this presupposes that the Catholic Church is true and you would disagree, being Orthodox, but I'm trying to clarify my point. In terms of Orthodoxy, it's the closest of anything to Catholicism. That's what I meant that Russia is closer to Catholicism than it was - because Orthodoxy as a faith is closer to the Catholic Church (ie: has more in common) than anything else, especially Marxism.

They are no closer than they were before the devastation of communism.

 

[Maryslittleflower]

well, I would wonder then why Russia would be dedicated or whatever to Mary's Immaculate Heart, since Rome has that understanding and we don't. so how could the conclusion be anything other than Russia being Catholic if they are dedicated to a uniquely Catholic practice?

and yes, that view is very modern of us being the Two Lungs, which of course we reject.

The Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart isn't referring to Russians having this devotion except as a possible eventual result, someday. The Consecration means simply that the Pope would say a prayer entrusting Russia to Our Blessed Mother. That is what the word consecration means in context....A prayer the Pope and Bishops would say that would bring graces to Russia to end it's errors which is Communism...

Our Lady also said the errors would spread.. And Communism did spread even in more hidden ways such as the liberalism in North America. I read how Communists also legalized abortion and now it's everywhere

Our Lady also said in Fatima there would be WW2 if people don't turn to God and even prophecied the time it would begin and that it would be worse than ww1 ...and the mysterious red light that appeared shortly before that even Hitler noticed and at that point he made a decision that lead to the war