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Featured The Father Of (Partial Preterism) A Catholic Jesuit "Luis De Alcasar" (1554-1613)

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Truth7t7, Feb 8, 2018.

  1. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    Not in my Bible. Paul speaks of Bishops/Elders always in plural int e churc and deacons.

    I would guess that priests came into the church when Constantine amalgamated Christianity and Paganism.

    The first bishop/elder of Rome was Linus, mentioned by Paul. 2 Timothy 4
    The second or third was Clement also mentioned by Paul.

    Php 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
     
  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I am a born again member of the New Covenant of Christ. Is that enough?

    Have you been born again of the Holy Spirit, as described in John 3?

    When did it happen?
     
  3. Light of the East

    Light of the East Ukrainian Greek Catholic Supporter

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    I have been born-again according to the way that the Early Fathers described it:

    Here is a selection from the eleventh chapter of the Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 130) describing baptism:

    “This means that we go down into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our hearts, fear and hope in Jesus and in the Spirit.”

    Baptism is here described as immediately removing sins and producing immediate fruit in the heart. The notion that baptism bears immediate fruit in the heart implies that baptism regenerates the baptized person.

    Here is a selection from chapter 16 of the ninth Similitude of the Shepherd of Hermas (early second century):

    They were obliged,” he answered, “to ascend through water in order that they might be made alive; for, unless they laid aside the deadness of their life, they could not in any other way enter into the kingdom of God. … For,” he continued, “before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive. And to them, accordingly, was this seal preached, and they made use of it that they might enter into the kingdom of God.” (Shepherd of Hermas)

    Just as in the Epistle of Barnabas, the candidate is described as going into the water dead, and coming out alive. Not only that, but through baptism we are said to enter into the kingdom of God.

    Next, is the well known figure of St. Justin Martyr (c. 100-165). Here are some selections from his First Apology:

    “I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. They then are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. . . . The reason for this we have received from the Apostles.” (Chapter 61)

    These are men who were two generations from the Apostles. They learned the Apostle's doctrine from the men whom the Apostles taught.

    Now convince me that what you believe (what I saw in the video) which wasn't taught for over 1500 years, is more true and right than the men who learned from the Apostles.
     
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    You compared New Covenant baptism to Old Covenant circumcision. Judus was circumcised. Did that grant him eternal life, even though he betrayed Christ?


    Will every baby baptized in your church gain eternal life.

    Do you deny the indwelling of the Spirit in true believers?
     
  5. Light of the East

    Light of the East Ukrainian Greek Catholic Supporter

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    QUOTE="BABerean2, You compared New Covenant baptism to Old Covenant circumcision. Judas was circumcised. Did that grant him eternal life, even though he betrayed Christ?

    Again, not the point. The point is that when you make a covenant, you go through the ritual of covenant-making in the presence of witnesses. You are a part of the covenant community. Now if you remain faithful to the covenant (oaths/sanctions - principle number 4) you obtain the blessing of covenant-keeping. In this case, that blessing is eternal life. If you break the covenant, you receive curse.

    You can see this principle in Deuteronomy 28-29 as God was making covenant with the nation of Israel. Both blessing and curse are clearly laid out for all to understand.


    Will every baby baptized in your church gain eternal life?

    Will everyone who "makes a decision for Jesus" before being baptized stay the course? You had better say no or you are not being honest.

    Do you deny the indwelling of the Spirit in true believers?

    What is a "true believer?" Something that you get to define? I be interested in what you think it is.

    The Holy Spirit is given at the time of baptism. He is God, therefore, we are in covenant with Him as the indwelling "seal" of our baptism. But like all relationships (covenant is a relationship of love, not a contract!!) the covenant union can be broken and the blessing of the Holy Spirit's indwelling becomes a curse on Judgment Day except we repent before we die.

    The Calvinist idea of "perseverance of the saints" breaks covenant principles and is therefore false. The idea that once one is "truly saved" he will never fall away has no basis at all in the idea of a marital union, which is one of the analogies used to describe our relationship to Christ.
     
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    How does the baby make a covenant when splashed with water in the presence of witnesses?
    What did the baby do to get into the covenant?


    The Holy Spirit is not given by sprinkling a baby with water, based on the verses below.
    The faith comes first.


    Gal_3:2  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


    Eph_1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,



    You are very confused about the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of Christians.
    In your earlier posts you seem to deny or belittle the work of the Holy Spirit.


    I will ask again.
    When were you "born again" of the Holy Spirit?
    If you do not understand the two verses above, here is a hint.
    (John 5:24)



    Mat_10:20  For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

    Joh_3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    Joh_14:17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Joh_15:26  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    Joh_16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    Act_11:12  And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house.

    Rom_8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Rom_8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Rom_8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

    Rom_8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


    Rom_8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.



    Rom_8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.



    Rom_8:26  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.



    1Co_3:16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?



    2Co_3:3  Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.



    Gal_3:2  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?



    Gal_5:18  But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.



    Eph_1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,





    Eph_4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.



    1Th_4:8  He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.




    1Jn_4:13  Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.



    Jud_1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.


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  7. Light of the East

    Light of the East Ukrainian Greek Catholic Supporter

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    QUOTE="BABerean2,

    How does the baby make a covenant when splashed with water in the presence of witnesses? What did the baby do to get into the covenant?

    Not "splashed" with water. That is a Roman Catholic error. Proper baptism is immersion, which is a picture of death, burial and resurrection to new life. The first Christians knew nothing of this "splashing" of which you speak.

    An infant is entered into the covenant community by the actions of the parent. This is a biblical principle called "hierarchy." It means that the covenant head acts and speaks for all under his authority. Let's give you a few examples of this:

    Clearest of all should be the actions of the federal head of mankind, Adam, when he sinned. By his actions, all mankind was entered into as state of separation from God. Adam acted in behalf of all mankind.

    We also see the actions of Dathan and Abihu. Notice that when they acted against the Lord's annointed, Moses, not only did they receive the curse of disobedience, but the whole of their families perished with them. As covenant heads, their actions were accredited to their families.

    When the high priest performed Yom Kippur (Lev. 16), he acted in behalf of all of the covenant community in restoring the covenant for one year.

    Covenant headship is also why the nation of Israel was destroyed. The chief priests of Israel condemned and killed the Messiah. In doing so, the whole nation acted through them.

    And the best example of covenant headship acting in behalf of those under him is our Lord when He established the New Covenant and keeps it going by the performance of an eternal Yom Kippur in heaven.

    The faith of the parents is sufficient for the children to get into the covenant, just as it was when a male baby was circumcised. When a foreigner came into Israel and was circumcised, he and the male babies were circumcised, but the females were not. Does that mean that the women were not part of the covenant? No...the faith of the covenant head sufficed for them.


    The Holy Spirit is not given by sprinkling a baby with water, based on the verses below.
    The faith comes first.


    Gal_3:2  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    Eph_1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    These verses are written to adults, not infants. That does not exclude infant baptism.

    You are very confused about the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of Christians.
    In your earlier posts you seem to deny or belittle the work of the Holy Spirit.

    Because I don't accept your interpretation?


    I will ask again.
    When were you "born again" of the Holy Spirit?
    If you do not understand the two verses above, here is a hint.
    (John 5:24)


    As I said before -- when I was baptized, which is what the Church taught from the beginning.

    If you are so certain that you are right, why wasn't your idea of baptism and being born-again taught in the first century?
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Are you are saying that a child can gain eternal life through the faith of the parents, even if the child becomes an atheist?

    Is there a certain age where the child is no longer covered by the faith of the parents?


    Are you agreeing that adults gain the Holy Spirit after faith, based on the scripture below?

    Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (KJV)

    Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? (ESV)


    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (KJV)

    In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, (ESV)


    How many verses can you show us in the New Testament where the word "baby" or "child" was used in relation to baptism?

    How many verses can you show us in the New Testament where people were baptized after they came to faith in Christ?

    When babies were circumcised in the Old Covenant, did that grant them eternal life?


    What did Jesus say to Nicodemus about being born again of the Spirit, during the first century?

    Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    Were you already a "born again" believer when you were a "Bob Jones Fundamentalist", or did you get the Holy Spirit by being baptized as an adult in the Orthodox Church?


    .
     
  9. Bumble Bee

    Bumble Bee Disciplemaker Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    MOD HAT ON
    This thread has been cleaned. For future posts, address the content of the post. Do not address each other personally, and do not make inflammatory or derogatory remarks against a person or a group of people.
    MOD HAT OFF
     
  10. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    You state you are not Roman Catholic but you are a fourth degree in the "Knight Of Columbus" a Catholic Org, why?

    The goals of this org are in allegiance to the pope and Catholic church?

    Wikipedia: Knights Of Columbus

    The Knights also support the Catholic Church's positions on public policy issues, and are participants in the New Evangelization.

    Pope John Paul II referred to the Order as a "strong right arm of the Church," for their support for Church doctrines and Church communities
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Throughout the New Testament it is the faith of the individual, instead of their parents that brings salvation in the New Covenant of Christ.

    Nobody in the Old Testament was ever given eternal life through circumcision of the flesh.
    We find in Hebrews chapter 11 that it came through the "faith" of the individual.





    Heb_11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


    Heb_11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    Heb_11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

    Heb_11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Heb_11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

    Heb_11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

    Heb_11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

    Heb_11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

    Heb_11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of
    them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

    Heb_11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

    Heb_11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

    Heb_11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

    Heb_11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

    Heb_11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

    Heb_11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

    Heb_11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

    Heb_11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

    Heb_11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

    Heb_11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

    Heb_11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,




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    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
  12. Light of the East

    Light of the East Ukrainian Greek Catholic Supporter

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    Knights of Columbus is open to all who are Catholic. That means that there are 24 various Rites which are eligible to be a Knight: Melkites, Marionites, Mar Thoma, Coptic, etc.

    Roman is not the only flavor of Catholic we offer.
     
  13. Light of the East

    Light of the East Ukrainian Greek Catholic Supporter

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    I gave you examples of hierarchy from the Bible - Adam acting as covenant head and bringing the curse of covenant breaking upon the whole human race. Nadab and Abihu bringing the curse upon their whole families. The high priest condemning all national Israel by his order to have Christ crucified. Jesus restoring all mankind through His covenant headship and obedience.

    These are examples of one's faith (or lack of faith) affecting those under his headship.

    You just don't "get it" and you will not get it until you understand covenant principles.
     
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I "get it" because my mother and father were Lutherans.

    I have no memory of any ceremony performed on me when I was a baby and it would not have mattered whether I was sprinkled or submerged.

    I was lost and headed for hell during most of my life.

    While hearing the Gospel preached on one occasion I could see a drop of blood run down Jesus Christ's body and fall into the air.
    That drop of blood fell through space and time and fell on me.
    At that moment I was convicted of my sin and cried out for a Savior.

    Based on Galatians 3:2, and Ephesians 1:13, this is when I was sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

    Based on John 5:24, this was the moment that I was regenerated by being passed from death to life, upon faith in Christ.

    I am very well versed in the beliefs of modern "Covenant Theology" and its claim that a person's relationship to God is determined by their parents.
    The problem is that these claims are not found in the New Testament.


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  15. Light of the East

    Light of the East Ukrainian Greek Catholic Supporter

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    Suit yourself, sir. I gave you the examples and we have the example of the Early Church. I asked you where you find any such practice as "believer's baptism" or "making a decision for Jesus" in the first 1500 years of Christianity and I have not been given an answer (because it isn't there - period!). But you have every right to believe in man-made religious practices which started 1500 years after Christ and the Apostles walked the earth and taught.

    I should cut you a little slack. For 13 years I was where you are now and defended everything you have said. I did this because the men I trusted as pastors deliberately hid the Early Fathers of the Church from me. Their references in preaching were strictly to the men who came over a millenia later, if they made any such references at all. Usually, Fundamentalist preachers such as the ones I sat under want you to believe THEM and THEIR INTERPRETATION of Scriptures, which can be quite convincing as they torment the Greek and torture context. As such, it can be hard to dig out from that.

    You had a conversion experience. You were brought back to your original vows of baptism by a grace-filled and unusual experience.

    Might I ask where you studied Covenant Theology and whose books you read? I still think that Ray Sutton gives a very good description of it, even though I feel he missed the boat by describing covenant as contract rather than relationship of love as expressed in the Bridegroom understanding of Christ and His people. His principles are solid.
     
  16. Light of the East

    Light of the East Ukrainian Greek Catholic Supporter

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    BTW -

    I would say that your analysis of John 5:24 is correct, but with one codicil. Infant baptism brings us into the covenant community, but it is indeed the "hearing of the Word" which we need to have to enter fully into the covenant we have been baptized into. Many people are baptized into the covenant, but for reasons of hardness of heart, love of sin, or other issues, never "hear" the Word nor let it take possession of their hearts. For most people, coming to a point of intellectual knowledge (which means that we are also at that time culpable of sin) is when the Word has to take root in their hearts and set them on the journey into Christ.
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Being in the New Covenant is like being pregnant.

    You are either in the New Covenant or your are not.




    .
     
  18. Light of the East

    Light of the East Ukrainian Greek Catholic Supporter

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    Well, I totally agree with you. Baptism is the ritual of covenant entrance, just as circumcision was in the Old Covenant. All you are baptized are in the covenant - young and old alike.

    There came a time when a young boy made the covenant his own by an act of his volition and will. That ceremony was called (and still is today) Bar Mitzvah. The correllary ceremony in the New Covenant is called Confirmation.

    As you mentioned, it is possible to be born into the New Covenant and yet not inherit eternal life. That is called "Covenant breaking," which is to say, you walk out of the relationship you have with Jesus and like the Prodigal, go live in the pig-styes of sin.

    The Prodigal is a really good example of the covenant and how it works. He was born into it and was part of the family, with the inheritance waiting for him. We also are said to have an inheritance in the heavens which waits for us.

    The Prodigal insulted his father and left his home, just as those who commit mortal sin insult our Father in heaven and leave their spiritual home, the Church.

    And just like the father in the parable, our Father in heaven longingly waits for us to return, and does many things in our lives to facilitate that return. But what if the boy had not returned but stubbornly died in the pig pens? Would he have inherited all that waited for him? Of course not! And in like manner, those who break their covenant vows and turn from the family and our Father and die in that state cannot expect to receive their inheritance (eternal life) either. They will be disinherited.

    IOW - "once saved - always saved" is not true and violates the principles of the covenant.
     
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Yes, and No.

    Those who claim to have placed their faith in Christ and continue to sin as before, have clearly made a false profession of faith.

    Those truly in the New Covenant through faith in Christ will reveal it through their fruit, which is found in Matthew chapter 25.

    Christ is the one who fulfilled the covenant, instead of us.

    When God made the original covenant with Abraham, it was God who fulfilled the covenant.
    After that point, no human could stop it.



    Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


    Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    How many times do you think a person can receive the Holy Spirit, and then give it up, and then get it back again?

    Based on Galatians 3:16-29, we become a part of the seed of Abraham and inherit the promise through faith in Christ.

    Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



    It does not come from a ceremony performed on a baby by parents.

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    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
  20. Light of the East

    Light of the East Ukrainian Greek Catholic Supporter

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    You earlier made the claim that you are "well-versed" in the Covenant of God.

    Sir, from this and other posts you have made, you don't understand the first thing about the biblical principles of a covenant and how one works.

    This has been interesting, but we are now beating a dead horse. Further conversation will not change your mind. It will take the Holy Spirit and your willingness to read the books I suggested (which am pretty sure you will not do) to change your mind. As I said before, I've been where you are now and I was just as stubborn in my errors as you are in yours now. I wouldn't listen to anyone and I thought I knew everything. This seems to be a constant among all brands of Protestantism, plainly exhibited by how good people here fight among each other. Some of the arguments I have seen have been legendary. But I have yet to see any conversions from one viewpoint to another.

    Wishing you the blessings of God and a good day to you.
     
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