The Falling Away

SongOnTheWind

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I don't think God is waiting for a particular trigger point. God knew before Creation when the Second Coming would happen to the exact split second. There does not have to be any reason, other than that was the point in time the return would always happen.

Exactly. Arguing about semantics is not going to change that fact.
 
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SongOnTheWind

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Any interpretation that excludes them form direct application must be rejected.
Is that so, parousia? :)

Something tells me you are going to reject whatever I say whether you agree with it or not. That's ok, I'm not waiting for your vindication or approval.

No one is excluding the apostles. We who believe and have faith in and follow Jesus the Messiah are disciples of Christ. This passage applies to us also. Feel free to vehemently disagree and reply in kind, but that is the context of the chapter.

Or are you trying to say that all of Jesus's Words were only relevant exactly the moment when He spoke them and only the people in front of Him who He was addressing? Then why bother preserve any of it for us 2000 yrs later if they don't even apply? Where is the logic?

Jesus Himself said His words will never pass away. We don't get to pick and choose which ones we feel like taking serious today. Jesus didn't come to do away with the Law either, He actually fulfilled it. Jewish people today may not see it that way, but if I am a disciple of Jesus I have to apply myself to His Word, not the other way around. See how that works? It's not about interpretation, but about truth. I don't claim to have perfect truth, but I seek it out. Not another man's interpretation of it, although it's nice to have a friendly discussion now and then.

I find that when people are just after an argument or to prove they are right, it detracts from the conversation and wastes time, instead of providing actual information and makes the overall discussion far less enjoyable. Kinda boring, actually.

Anyway, you take care, parousia :)
 
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parousia70

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So it is a literal fig tree, and not a sign at all?

Correct. the Fig tree (and ALL trees) budding is an ANALOGY.

The seeing of All these things of Matt 24:33 = the seeing of the fig Tree budding.
Once they saw "all these things" come to pass they would know knew the end was near at the doors, the same way when they saw trees budding they knew summer was at the doors.

That is what the passage is LITERALLY saying.

It is unfounded, man made allegory to stretch, bend and twist it to mean anything else.

Then we have no signs pointing to a soon anything.
The coming to pass of "All these things" of Matt 24:33 are the signs.

But I thought, signs or not, you didn't think anything could be literally soon anyway?
 
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parousia70

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Is that so, parousia? :)
Yes. It is so.
No one is excluding the apostles.
Then Can you explain how it applied to them?

Or are you trying to say that all of Jesus's Words were only relevant exactly the moment when He spoke them and only the people in front of Him who He was addressing? Then why bother preserve any of it for us 2000 yrs later if they don't even apply? Where is the logic?

It is in the discernment of the difference between Prophetic application and PASTORAL application.

They Prophetically applied to the apostolic generation, yet they have pastoral application to all Christians of all time.

Take the Flood of Noah for example.
Are you building an ark and gathering animals?
Of course not, because the prophesy of the flood has ZERO prophetic application to you.
However it ABSOLUTELY has pastoral application to you as it teaches about the character and nature of God.

Do we simply throw out the Flood Narrative in Genesis as useless, simply because it does not prophetically apply TO us today?

I hop you say no.

Here's another example:
Philippians 2:19
But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

Are you waiting for Timothy's soon arrival to YOU?
Why not?

The YOU in this passage means all Christians of all time - Disciples throughout the ages, and Shortly means thousands of years, does it not?

Based on your stated hermeneutic, Why would you confine this scripture to have direct application to the first century Philippians ONLY, and not to all Christians of all time?
Why should we today not say:
Come Timothy! Come!

According to you, We don't get to pick and choose which scriptures to take seriously today and which not to, right?

If you take this scripture seriously you should therefore expect Timothy's soon arrival to you, no?

I hope you are beginning to see the absurdity of your view, when it is consistently applied.

Jesus Himself said His words will never pass away. We don't get to pick and choose which ones we feel like taking serious today.

I would submit the one claiming the apostles - to whom Jesus is directly addressing, whom He said would indeed see "all these things" come to pass - did in fact not see "all those things" come to pass, as Jesus said they would, is the one not taking Jesus words seriously today.
 
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parousia70

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I think there was a basis for telling people it COULD be soon and we can see that in this passage:

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter implies here that the day of His coming is not known, which is exactly what Jesus Himself indicated in verses like Matthew 24:36 and Matthew 25:13. Peter clearly thought it could happen soon for all anyone knew because he told his first century audience to look for it and be ready for it. But, I believe he also hinted at the fact that it was quite possible that it still might take a long time (from the time he wrote the letter) for Him to come from the human perspective even though it wouldn't be long from God's perspective.

1)Peter wrote this somewhere around 65-68 AD, Some 35+ years after Jesus said "watch"... 40 years was the average lifespan in the first century, so of course Peter would have the need to comfort his flocks who were no doubt saying "where is the promise of His coming", as they had already waited most of a lifetime! I see no reason in this passage to extend it to mean thousands of years.

2) Jesus Promises His thief in the night coming would befall actual first century peoples in Revelation 3:3

The motivation for telling people it could happen soon (remember, only the Father knew the day and hour - Matt 24:36) can be seen in 2 Peter 3:11. Believing that Jesus could literally come soon should serve the purpose of motivating people to take part in "all holy conversation and godliness". If we feel He could come soon, it serves as motivation for us to be in a right relationship with Him when He comes and not be among those who get burned up by the fire that He will bring down upon the earth.

I addressed this earlier...
I know my life has an expiration date... I'll be lucky to live past 90
As I said back then you'd be lucky to live past 40..

I don't need the specter of a possible but not likely coming of Christ in my lifetime for any sort of motivation to live in a right relationship with God.
Do you?
I might be hit by a bus tomorrow.
So might you.

The likelihood of my dying by some means far eclipses the likelihood of Christ coming to end the world before that happens.
In fact I'd say the likelihood is 100%

In fact, so far, 100% of EVERY Christian since the first century, who has ever lived and died hoping and believing Christ could come in their lifetime, died holding on to a failed expectation, having their hopes dashed.

I don't find false hope edifying in any way, nor a motivating factor in my desire to live right.

As King Solomon said:
"Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but desire fulfilled is a tree of Life"
Proverbs 13:12
 
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parousia70

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Why do "you" quote them with authority ?

Their Musings can be helpful, but they are by no means unified. I don't think anyone with even a cursory understanding of the ECF's would claim they held a Unified theology and they certainly did not hold a unified eschatology... Though The challenge is to find even one who did NOT hold that Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the 1st century.

That said, what do you mean by "with authority"?
What authority have I claimed they have?
 
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SongOnTheWind

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I hope you are beginning to see the absurdity of your view, when it is consistently applied.
Only because it disagrees with the argument you are posing. I am very happy to disagree with your argument as it makes no sense to me whatsoever. I don't have to claim to be right or to make you out to be absurd. We disagree. You can try to convince me if you like, but insulting me isn't the best way. Why does it matter to you so much that someone else has an opposing view? We are discussing scripture. Trust me, no one's reputation of knowledge or cleverness is on the line. Unless you really do think you know it all. Now, that I would call absurd.
 
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SongOnTheWind

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I have another question to do with the falling away, or love of the Body growing cold. When Jesus said he had come to bring a sword and set brother against brother and son against father, does that tie in with our love growing cold? The conflict of those who hate the truth against those who love the truth, though both may claim belief in God? Was it something Jesus set in motion as protection for true believers to stand against the lies, no matter what?
 
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Timtofly

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Correct. the Fig tree (and ALL trees) budding is an ANALOGY.

The seeing of All these things of Matt 24:33 = the seeing of the fig Tree budding.
Once they saw "all these things" come to pass they would know knew the end was near at the doors, the same way when they saw trees budding they knew summer was at the doors.

That is what the passage is LITERALLY saying.

It is unfounded, man made allegory to stretch, bend and twist it to mean anything else.


The coming to pass of "All these things" of Matt 24:33 are the signs.

But I thought, signs or not, you didn't think anything could be literally soon anyway?
Literal has nothing to do with it from my perspective. When it comes to God it is literally soon. Not me.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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1)Peter wrote this somewhere around 65-68 AD, Some 35+ years after Jesus said "watch"... 40 years was the average lifespan in the first century, so of course Peter would have the need to comfort his flocks who were no doubt saying "where is the promise of His coming", as they had already waited most of a lifetime! I see no reason in this passage to extend it to mean thousands of years.

2) Jesus Promises His thief in the night coming would befall actual first century peoples in Revelation 3:3



I addressed this earlier...
I know my life has an expiration date... I'll be lucky to live past 90
As I said back then you'd be lucky to live past 40..

I don't need the specter of a possible but not likely coming of Christ in my lifetime for any sort of motivation to live in a right relationship with God.
Do you?
I might be hit by a bus tomorrow.
So might you.

The likelihood of my dying by some means far eclipses the likelihood of Christ coming to end the world before that happens.
In fact I'd say the likelihood is 100%

In fact, so far, 100% of EVERY Christian since the first century, who has ever lived and died hoping and believing Christ could come in their lifetime, died holding on to a failed expectation, having their hopes dashed.

I don't find false hope edifying in any way, nor a motivating factor in my desire to live right.

As King Solomon said:
"Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but desire fulfilled is a tree of Life"
Proverbs 13:12
These passages are the crux of the "watch" in Matthew 24 and it is said to All people of NT:
Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

we are of course witnessing the advancement of the Day...no one knows that Day...at each passing moment, who can deny this...I am only saying that it is advancing rapidly in our current time.

The chapter speaks of signs already in existence back in the day of the Apostles and goes on to say...

34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

So it is this generation, as in NT times and the last generation was the time before Christ.
There is no proof positive in writing; it is implied by Christ's words which are often a manner of speaking.
Sound iffy?...
or gaining wisdom and instruction;
for understanding words of insight;
3 for receiving instruction in prudent behavior,
doing what is right and just and fair;
4 for giving prudence to those who are simple,a]" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: normal; position: relative; vertical-align: text-top; top: auto; display: inline;">[a]
knowledge and discretion to the young—
5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance—
6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
the sayings and riddles of the wise.

Likewise, the Peter passage (II Peter 3:8-9)...
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

We see that God's time may appear fast or slow to us, but, we must watch as more and more signs unfold. Watch our lives so that all these things do not find us "sleeping".
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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I think personally a part of the "falling away" is modern secular and even many churches open acceptance of homosexuality. Approval polls have changed dramatically about homosexuality in the last few decades.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Views of Homosexuality Around the World

Homosexual Polls.PNG
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Hya SOTW,

Q) Who is the "YOU" in the above passage?
A) The Apostles to whom Jesus was speaking.

Q)Did they personally witness and experience these things?
A) YES!

Matt 24:9-10 -- Jesus foretells the persecution of the early church by the Jews and later by Nero, who falsely blamed the Christian sect for burning up to half of Rome. This persecution went on the entire AD 30-66 by the Jews, and Nero's persecution was precisely 3.5 years, from 64-68AD. It is essential to note that Matthew 24:9-13 is exactly parallel to Matthew 10:16-23, a passage which all scholars assign to a first-century fulfillment. Jesus predicts the civil wars of the Jews (Matt 24:10; 10:21), and the great Jewish civil war occurred in 66-69AD (Josephus; Wars, 2:17:1-10; 2:18:1-11; 4:6:2-3; 5:1:2-5; 5:6:1; 5:13:6; 6:2:1).

Matt 24:11-13 -- Jesus teaches more on false prophets, emphasizing their key role in the delusion of the nation, as per 2 Thess 2:7-11 (see also: Antiquities, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). Josephus says false prophets were related to the messianic movement of the seditious Zealots, who promised a redemption for the Jewish rebels at the Temple but were met with total destruction at the hand of the Romans. In Matthew 24:13 Jesus holds out hope for the believers who might endure to the end. (Verses 24:12-13 are parallel to Matthew 10:21-22.)

Matt 24:14 -- A key sign of the end of the Jewish age was the gospel's rapid proclamation to the whole world (Greek: "oikoumene" = "inhabited earth;" "Roman Empire" -- Strong's # 3625). This sign was rapidly fulfilled in the apostles' generation, especially through Paul's ministry (Col 1:23, Col 1:5-6, Romans 10:14-18, Romans 16:26, 1 Tim 3:16; Acts 13:47). The "whole world" spoken of in the Bible pertained to the extent of the Roman Empire (compare the geographic boundaries of the "whole world" in Matt 24:14 with that of the same "whole world" in Luke 2:1, Acts 11:28, Acts 2:5, Romans 1:8 and and 2 Chronicles 36:23). The use of the Greek word "oikoumene" (Strong's #3625) in Matt 24:14 speaks of the Roman Empire -- the "whole world" ("oikoumene") of the scriptures was contextually centered in the area of the Ancient Roman Empire (see: Luke 2:1). Early Church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Eusebius, and Chrysostom said Matthew 24:14 as fulfilled in the apostles' generation. The immediate and rapid spread of the Christian faith throughout the entire Empire signified a covenantal shift to a new dispensation wherein all nations participate equally in the blessing of Abraham through faith (Gen 12:1-3; Gal 3:6-9,14,29).

Any interpretation that excludes them form direct application must be rejected.
How are you then explaining away Matthew 24:29-30? Which all these signs lead to.
What of II Timothy 3...especially verses 12-13?
Is this not what we witness as we march to the end...especially in our present days?
Jesus points to Daniel for end times and war and astounding devastation precede the Day of Judgment.
 
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parousia70

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How are you then explaining away Matthew 24:29-30? Which all these signs lead to.

The Bible explains it for us. I prefer to stick with the scriptural explanation instead of the 21st century Hollywood Fantasy Explanation that only comes when we ignore the scriptural precedent.

There have been multiple “day of the lord” events recorded for us in scripture.

In all previous Day of the Lord events that were fulfilled as the Judgement of God upon Nations, using human armies as His agents, the language used is the same; Sun Darkening, Stars falling, earth splitting, mountains melting, universe collapsing, God riding a cloud, wielding His sword, etc etc....

It is only from the later generations, removed from the genre of Jewish apocalyptic literature, that we find the false, over literalization of such language that was used time and again by the Prophets of God in metaphoric ways to describe the fall of a nation.

The best way to understand apocalyptic writing is to study the many comings of God during the Old Testament times and see how that language is used in past situations. Once we see the way the prophets spoke of God's comings down during the Old Testament times, we are better equipped to think about how God comes all throughout history and even at the end of time. Study the following comings of God in history and think about the way in which the prophets use familiar doom language in each case:

God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)


God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)


God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)


God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)


God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)


God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)


God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the Sun, Moon and constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matthew 16:27-28; Luke 9:26; Matthew 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matthew 16:27-28; Matthew 24:33-34).

He made specific Promises to them that He did not fail to fulfill. He did not Lie to them.

What of II Timothy 3...especially verses 12-13?
Is this not what we witness as we march to the end...especially in our present days?
Jesus points to Daniel for end times and war and astounding devastation precede the Day of Judgment.


Again, and I know it's largely unpopular here, I tend to let scripture interpret itself instead of using CNN, FOX News, and Tik Tock.....

2 Timothy 3 Begins with:
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come

When are the Last Days?
Scripture continually testifies they were in the 1st century:
The writer of Hebrews infallibly declares they were underway during Christ's Earthly ministry:
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; Hebrews 1:1-3

Peter Infallibly declared that Joel's "Last Days " prophesy was being fulfilled in front of his very eyes:
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.

(Acts 2:16-17)

Abd Paul Infallibly declares to his flocks that the ends of the ages had come upon THEM:

Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. (1 Corinthians 10:11)

If you are looking for Apostolic confirmation that the prophesied falling away took place, look no further that the Book of Jude, which records the coming to pass of the prophesy.

We are to believe what the Bible teaches about these things, and not invent new meanings to suit our 21st century Goggles because it feels better somehow.
 
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SongOnTheWind

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2 Corinthians 3:5-8:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

If you insist on such a tunnel vision adherence to the letter and not the Life behind the Word of God, you will run into error. It will kill the meaning. I would hope that no professing Christian would get exposition of the scriptures from their TV, but I wouldn't put it past some.

Disciples of Christ obey His commandments, and we therefore we seek to be completely filled with the Holy Spirit we have received by being born again into the kingdom of God when we accept Jesus Christ the Messiah as our Lord, God, and Saviour. The more we are filled with the Holy Spirit, the more we are led of Him; in though and word and action, and in applying ourselves to His Word. It is not our interpretation, but His revelation at work in us.

However, as Paul said, we all see in part. Each of us has one piece of the puzzle. If one of us could claim to know the full and perfect interpretation of the bible, that would be us equating ourselves with God. That is completely ridiculous. But we can become more like the image of Him that He created us to be before the fall, by obedience and submission to His Word of Life that we now walk in as part of the kingdom of God.

No one on this side of eternity knows it all. Attack is not a valid form of discussion. In fact, all it does is disqualify the position put forward by the attack. One shouldn't have to in order to make a point. One shouldn't have to, when dealing with the Holy Word of God.
 
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Timtofly

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The Bible explains it for us. I prefer to stick with the scriptural explanation instead of the 21st century Hollywood Fantasy Explanation that only comes when we ignore the scriptural precedent.

There have been multiple “day of the lord” events recorded for us in scripture.

In all previous Day of the Lord events that were fulfilled as the Judgement of God upon Nations, using human armies as His agents, the language used is the same; Sun Darkening, Stars falling, earth splitting, mountains melting, universe collapsing, God riding a cloud, wielding His sword, etc etc....

It is only from the later generations, removed from the genre of Jewish apocalyptic literature, that we find the false, over literalization of such language that was used time and again by the Prophets of God in metaphoric ways to describe the fall of a nation.

The best way to understand apocalyptic writing is to study the many comings of God during the Old Testament times and see how that language is used in past situations. Once we see the way the prophets spoke of God's comings down during the Old Testament times, we are better equipped to think about how God comes all throughout history and even at the end of time. Study the following comings of God in history and think about the way in which the prophets use familiar doom language in each case:

God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)


God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)


God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)


God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)


God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)


God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)


God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the Sun, Moon and constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matthew 16:27-28; Luke 9:26; Matthew 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matthew 16:27-28; Matthew 24:33-34).

He made specific Promises to them that He did not fail to fulfill. He did not Lie to them.




Again, and I know it's largely unpopular here, I tend to let scripture interpret itself instead of using CNN, FOX News, and Tik Tock.....

2 Timothy 3 Begins with:
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come

When are the Last Days?
Scripture continually testifies they were in the 1st century:
The writer of Hebrews infallibly declares they were underway during Christ's Earthly ministry:
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; Hebrews 1:1-3

Peter Infallibly declared that Joel's "Last Days " prophesy was being fulfilled in front of his very eyes:
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.

(Acts 2:16-17)

Abd Paul Infallibly declares to his flocks that the ends of the ages had come upon THEM:

Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. (1 Corinthians 10:11)

If you are looking for Apostolic confirmation that the prophesied falling away took place, look no further that the Book of Jude, which records the coming to pass of the prophesy.

We are to believe what the Bible teaches about these things, and not invent new meanings to suit our 21st century Goggles because it feels better somehow.
We are not supposed to be preparing for past literal events.

We are supposed to be ready for the soon coming literal Day of the Lord.
 
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parousia70

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parousia70

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We are not supposed to be preparing for past literal events.

We are supposed to be ready for the soon coming literal Day of the Lord.

We are to subdue kingdoms and establish righteousness as the Hebrews 11 heroes did:

Hebrews 11:6, 32-33
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him...for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions

The Christian Church walks in this great heritage of unstoppable faith just like our Hebrews 11 brothers and sisters. We are in process of subduing kingdoms, establishing righteousness, and asserting Christ's dominion over all nations through the same faith of David, Samuel, Joshua, and Moses had. Nothing can stop us (Matthew 16:18-19).

We are supposed to do the Work of Christ here and now, and make this world a better place tomorrow than it is today, and Nothing can stop us. (Matthew 16:18)

It's high time we started acting like it.
 
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parousia70

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We are not supposed to be preparing for past literal events.

Correct. This has been my entire point.

We are supposed to be ready for the soon coming literal Day of the Lord.
That never seems to come soon, and has left Billions of Christians drawing their final breath knowing their expectation failed to materialize.

Sad.
 
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