Just seems weird to me that someone could claim the apostles got it wrong, but folks today have it right.
Kind of a red flag IMO.
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Just seems weird to me that someone could claim the apostles got it wrong, but folks today have it right.
Kind of a red flag IMO.
And yet Jesus says in Matt 24 that it will happen. So... hence the thread?The number of Christians around the world has more than quadrupled in the last 110 years alone, from about 600 million in 1910 to more than 2.5 Billion in 2020.
Projections through 2050 show the trend continuing, and the Global Christian population will reach 3.4 Billion.
https://www.gordonconwell.edu/cente...020/01/Status-of-Global-Christianity-2020.pdf
There are more Christians today than there were yesterday, and there will be more tomorrow than there are today.
Nothing can stop this. (Matthew 16:18)
This is the opposite of falling away.
He said "if" we're in the apostasy. He also in the next post said "I might be wrong". Stop picking on him.You said "The end is very soon"
I pointed out that The Apostles also said the end was "Very Soon"
You replied "Yeah, I know it's been 2000 yrs lol. But seriously, I really feel like all signs are pointing to an imminent end, within our lifetime/generation."
Ergo, you feel the apostles were wrong to believe and teach the end was imminent in their generation (since you know it's been 2000 years), but you really feel you're right that the end is imminent in ours.
I simply find any position that requires the apostles were in error to be highly suspect.
Again, unless of course you are using a different definition of near, soon & imminent than the apostles were using.
Are you?
I'm a she lol. But thanks, I appreciate itHe said "if" we're in the apostasy. He also in the next post said "I might be wrong". Stop picking on him.
And yet Jesus says in Matt 24 that it will happen. So... hence the thread?
Already stated why I do not believe your numbers...many are Christian in name only and we have perversion in many, many churches today and all around the world...very different perversion than exited in the time of the Apostle.
Jesus told the Apostles all the signs of the end existed in their time, but, to watch.
We know the return of Jesus will be much as a thief in the night so I don't understand your criticism. We watch for all the signs while we watch and wait and cry out to Jesus ..."Come, Lord Jesus".
I see we disagree on a lot of theology...I see for instance that we must disagree on the definition of "this generation", whom Jesus was warning and that He indeed did say to "watch". Jesus speaks to all the following generations through the words of the N.T.And we know you are not Just a Christian in name only, part of this perversion today, how?
Should I not believe your claims to be a true Christian, based on your promoting that I should not believe anyone's claim to be a Christian?
Got any verifiable statistics as to the percentage of true Christian vs Christian in name only?
80%?
50%
10%
Any link to the research you are basing your assertion on would be most helpful, unless it's just a "feeling"?
He told His apostles to watch for something that would be impossible for them to ever see?
He told His apostles to watch for something that would not take place for thousands of years?
Really? You're gonna go with that?
We know from scripture that Jesus promised His thief in the night coming would befall actual living, breathing, first century peoples (Revelation 3:3)
Jesus could not have been mistaken about that, nor could he have lied to them about that.
Hi there, parousiaAnd He said it would happen,... when?
Matthew 24:34
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
We were always to live as if the return was soon. No one was taught that the return would always be a thousand years away. If the Bible taught that we had to always view the return as 1000 thousand years away, would that view still be wrong 5000 years later?You said "The end is very soon"
I pointed out that The Apostles also said the end was "Very Soon"
You replied "Yeah, I know it's been 2000 yrs lol. But seriously, I really feel like all signs are pointing to an imminent end, within our lifetime/generation."
Ergo, you feel the apostles were wrong to believe and teach the end was imminent in their generation (since you know it's been 2000 years), but you really feel you're right that the end is imminent in ours.
I simply find any position that requires the apostles were in error to be highly suspect.
Again, unless of course you are using a different definition of near, soon & imminent than the apostles were using.
Are you?
We were always to live as if the return was soon.
Thank God the inspired message was "soon". How would humans plan their lives on a point 1000 years from now? We do not live much past 90 years as a population.
As a side note. I don't think God is waiting for a particular trigger point. God knew before Creation when the Second Coming would happen to the exact split second. There does not have to be any reason, other than that was the point in time the return would always happen.
Hi there, parousia
Matthew 24:9-14
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Then it was not the Holy Spirit claiming soon.So God wanted everyone to believe a falsehood?
Then there is no point in telling people 2000 years ago that it was soon.
I live my life knowing I'll be lucky to have more than 90 years to do it.
I know I have a personal expiration date on my life. I don't need the specter of a false belief in a soon coming in order to live my life in a way that puts me in a right relationship with God.
Do you?
Scripture agrees. Scripture testifies that the day was FIXED in advance by God. (Acts 17:31) It's Immovable.
The timing is not movable based on the actions of men or the whim of God.
That Jesus could have come "at any moment" in the past 2000 years is not Biblical. I reject the notion that God would teach people to believe something unbiblical. Such a belief is solely a human invention.
Then it was not the Holy Spirit claiming soon.
It was only the expectation of the author.
God cannot tell us no one can know, and then declare it is soon.
I pointed out that soon and 1000 years is the same definition. It is a known fixed point in time. Since we cannot know both soon and 1000 years, saying soon or 1000 years is not pointing to the when. Pointing to the when would contradict the point we cannot know.
Those who expect soon are no different than those who expect it to happen in 1000 years.
....and yet many ECF's were waiting on the coming AC, tribulation and return of Jesus on the cloudsHya SOTW,
Q) Who is the "YOU" in the above passage?
A) The Apostles to whom Jesus was speaking.
Q)Did they personally witness and experience these things?
A) YES!
Matt 24:9-10 -- Jesus foretells the persecution of the early church by the Jews and later by Nero, who falsely blamed the Christian sect for burning up to half of Rome. This persecution went on the entire AD 30-66 by the Jews, and Nero's persecution was precisely 3.5 years, from 64-68AD. It is essential to note that Matthew 24:9-13 is exactly parallel to Matthew 10:16-23, a passage which all scholars assign to a first-century fulfillment. Jesus predicts the civil wars of the Jews (Matt 24:10; 10:21), and the great Jewish civil war occurred in 66-69AD (Josephus; Wars, 2:17:1-10; 2:18:1-11; 4:6:2-3; 5:1:2-5; 5:6:1; 5:13:6; 6:2:1).
Matt 24:11-13 -- Jesus teaches more on false prophets, emphasizing their key role in the delusion of the nation, as per 2 Thess 2:7-11 (see also: Antiquities, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). Josephus says false prophets were related to the messianic movement of the seditious Zealots, who promised a redemption for the Jewish rebels at the Temple but were met with total destruction at the hand of the Romans. In Matthew 24:13 Jesus holds out hope for the believers who might endure to the end. (Verses 24:12-13 are parallel to Matthew 10:21-22.)
Matt 24:14 -- A key sign of the end of the Jewish age was the gospel's rapid proclamation to the whole world (Greek: "oikoumene" = "inhabited earth;" "Roman Empire" -- Strong's # 3625). This sign was rapidly fulfilled in the apostles' generation, especially through Paul's ministry (Col 1:23, Col 1:5-6, Romans 10:14-18, Romans 16:26, 1 Tim 3:16; Acts 13:47). The "whole world" spoken of in the Bible pertained to the extent of the Roman Empire (compare the geographic boundaries of the "whole world" in Matt 24:14 with that of the same "whole world" in Luke 2:1, Acts 11:28, Acts 2:5, Romans 1:8 and and 2 Chronicles 36:23). The use of the Greek word "oikoumene" (Strong's #3625) in Matt 24:14 speaks of the Roman Empire -- the "whole world" ("oikoumene") of the scriptures was contextually centered in the area of the Ancient Roman Empire (see: Luke 2:1). Early Church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Eusebius, and Chrysostom said Matthew 24:14 as fulfilled in the apostles' generation. The immediate and rapid spread of the Christian faith throughout the entire Empire signified a covenantal shift to a new dispensation wherein all nations participate equally in the blessing of Abraham through faith (Gen 12:1-3; Gal 3:6-9,14,29).
Any interpretation that excludes them form direct application must be rejected.
....and yet many ECF's were waiting on the coming AC, tribulation and return of Jesus on the clouds
The only sign of the return is this verse:Then what did Jesus mean when He said:
Matthew 24:33
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
??
Are you saying this passage is meaningless to the one who "sees all these things" when it comes to the timing?
Are you saying this verse actually means:
"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is still possibly thousands of years away, but you can go ahead and think it's soon if you want, or not, it makes no difference"
Really??
Most certainly God can say no one can know the exact day or hour, but they CAN know when it is "soon, near, at hand and about to take place, even at the doors"
In fact, Jesus is saying EXACTLY THAT in the above passage. EXACTLY.
I don't think you can pawn off Jesus' own spoken words above as merely "the expectation of the author" and not the God breathed Truth.
You have to define what the fig tree is, before defining soon.
What is near?
All of the above from verse 5:
The Fig tree budding - and all the trees budding is not a sign of anything except that summer is near. Like actually, literally near. Not thousands of years away.The fig tree is not even a sign of the Second Coming.
What happens after the fig tree is soon.
So it is a literal fig tree, and not a sign at all?Then we have to define what "all the trees" are....
Luke 21:29
And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Wait... near how? thousands of years away near?
Don't you assert that that near and thousands of years away are exactly the same thing? Or is it different, polar opposite actually, in this one verse somehow, than in all other verses ?
The Fig tree budding - and all the trees budding is not a sign of anything except that summer is near. Like actually, literally near. Not thousands of years away.
I have a fig tree in my backyard actually. When it starts putting forth it's leaves in spring, I know that summer is not a thousand years away....
Soon how?
Soon as in still thousands of years away "soon"?
I honestly can't tell what you mean by soon... in one breath you seem to indicate it literally means soon, yet in the next you say soon and thousands of years are the same thing, interchangeable. Cannot be told apart.
Which is it?
I think there was a basis for telling people it COULD be soon and we can see that in this passage:Then there is no point in telling people 2000 years ago that it was soon.