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The Falling Away

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by SongOnTheWind, Jun 18, 2021.

  1. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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  2. SongOnTheWind

    SongOnTheWind Well-Known Member

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    And yet Jesus says in Matt 24 that it will happen. So... hence the thread?
     
  3. Berean Tim

    Berean Tim Well-Known Member

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    He said "if" we're in the apostasy. He also in the next post said "I might be wrong". Stop picking on him.
     
  4. SongOnTheWind

    SongOnTheWind Well-Known Member

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    I'm a she lol. But thanks, I appreciate it :oldthumbsup:
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    And He said it would happen,... when?

    Matthew 24:34
    34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    And we know you are not Just a Christian in name only, part of this perversion today, how?
    Should I not believe your claims to be a true Christian, based on your promoting that I should not believe anyone's claim to be a Christian?

    Got any verifiable statistics as to the percentage of true Christian vs Christian in name only?
    80%?
    50%
    10%

    Any link to the research you are basing your assertion on would be most helpful, unless it's just a "feeling"?

    He told His apostles to watch for something that would be impossible for them to ever see?
    He told His apostles to watch for something that would not take place for thousands of years?
    Really? You're gonna go with that?

    We know from scripture that Jesus promised His thief in the night coming would befall actual living, breathing, first century peoples (Revelation 3:3)

    Jesus could not have been mistaken about that, nor could he have lied to them about that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2021
  7. SongOnTheWind

    SongOnTheWind Well-Known Member

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    I think Christians definitely have lost a lot of love today, when compared to the first believers as described in the book of Acts. Perhaps the falling away and growing cold began not long after that time, but now we see it intensifying in the day we are living in now. We see a lot of division and useless quarrelling in the church, and not a lot of appreciation for humility, respect and kindness, unless we personally gain from it.

    But perhaps there is a more specific coldness that Jesus warned of that would happened before the end would come, as though it sets the stage for the son of perdition to be revealed.

    Or we may be at that point right now.
     
  8. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    I see we disagree on a lot of theology...I see for instance that we must disagree on the definition of "this generation", whom Jesus was warning and that He indeed did say to "watch". Jesus speaks to all the following generations through the words of the N.T.
    We can see signs noted by Jesus and the watch is to watch our lives and pray..."even more as we see the day approaching" --Hebrews.
    Your theology I cannot ascribe to...it requires a "translation" of straight language.
    One need not rely on worldly statistics. Did you verify the statistics you site? Of what date/s are they. You may rely heavily on them, they mean nothing to me. The body of Christ (the Israel of God) is all true believers known certain only by God Himself. Apostle Paul says in Romans that all Israel is not Israel. We see churches falling into perversion as well as the darkened minds of the masses. One can take this as a good reliable sign as Jesus says. Jesus does not point us to statistics (and especially those based on man's own testimony that he is a Christian.) When the world becomes a darker and darker place to live and not friendly to Christians at all one can say there certainly is a falling away and why isn't salt salt anymore?
    I still have the rest of my life to live out Christianity and prove myself to have kept the faith.
    I don't enjoy your sarcasm and it does not go far in enlightening me with your wisdom.
     
  9. SongOnTheWind

    SongOnTheWind Well-Known Member

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    Hi there, parousia :)

    Matthew 24:9-14
    9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

    This is the portion of scripture I was referencing, but if you read the whole chapter, Jesus talks about the very end of days, and what will happen to His disciples during that time, so it's definitely in the context of the end times. Note, that not all who call themselves believers of Christ are His disciples. Disciples are taught things. Those who have a name tag can try to look the part, but they certainly are not taught how to act the part. The teaching bit comes from the desire to learn and be taught as much as each lesson itself. That is why he who endures to the end will be saved, not he who thought he might try it out for a bit and see how it goes. And the kicker? You can't always tell who is which: only the Lord knows the heart. Sobering stuff, eh?

    This is what I am aiming to discuss in this thread.

    God bless you, parousia. Shalom, be at peace. :)
     
  10. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    We were always to live as if the return was soon. No one was taught that the return would always be a thousand years away. If the Bible taught that we had to always view the return as 1000 thousand years away, would that view still be wrong 5000 years later?

    At the 6000 year mark no one should question God or His message, because the truth would always be it would be in 1000 years. Not 1001 years, not 99 years. The return would always be in 1000 years. Even at the 10,000 year mark, the same promise 1000 years and the Lord will return. Any one questioning the fact that there had been 10,000 years would be considered heretics, because the message was it would always be 1000 years from now.

    Now you may cry, nonsense. How could it always be 1000 years away? If God told us in plain language it would always be 1000 years away, then we should not question the fact it will always be 1000 years away. That is exactly how you are using the word soon. That is what they taught: to always live as if the return could happen soon, at any time. Just like the return at 1000 years. It would always be to live as if it were 1000 years away. So you question why is the definition of soon not the same as in 1000 years. It is not. We need to live not on the failure of soon or 1000 years kept being the next 1000 years. Because the point is questioning "why not soon" or why not those 1000 years. God would still be keeping the promise, it will always be 1000 years away, or it will always be soon. Obviously the 1000 year option would seem to mean it will never happen. The soon option also could equally mean it will never happen. The return is not based on the definition of the time expected. God could show up and still return during the time of any 1000 years. Even 100 years after telling them to live like it is 1000 years away. Soon never looses it's definition, just like "in 1000 years" would never loose it's definition. In either case God is not lying when the return does happen, because the other point was no one can know the timing of the return. The return was not in 1000 years. The return was not soon, because that would mean all would know. So the return is not based on the definition of soon nor the definition of "in a 1000 years". The return is based on when the return actually happens.

    Thank God the inspired message was "soon". How would humans plan their lives on a point 1000 years from now? We do not live much past 90 years as a population.

    Making a big deal over the fact it has not been soon is still just as wrong as questioning God why not this 1000 years. Just like it could be any 1000 years, it could be any soon.

    As a side note. I don't think God is waiting for a particular trigger point. God knew before Creation when the Second Coming would happen to the exact split second. There does not have to be any reason, other than that was the point in time the return would always happen.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2021
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So God wanted everyone to believe a falsehood?
    Then there is no point in telling people 2000 years ago that it was soon.

    I live my life knowing I'll be lucky to have more than 90 years to do it.
    I know I have a personal expiration date on my life. I don't need the specter of a false belief in a soon coming in order to live my life in a way that puts me in a right relationship with God.

    Do you?

    Imagine two Christian neighbors living in the 1700's. (or the 1200's, or the 300's...)
    One lived his entire life expecting the soon coming.
    The other did not.

    They Both lived out their lives and died in a right relationship with God..

    Tell me, what benefit was afforded the one who expected the soon return over the one who did not, when the one who did, died knowing his expectation failed to materialize, while the one who didn't, suffered no such disappointment.

    Scripture agrees. Scripture testifies that the day was FIXED in advance by God. (Acts 17:31) It's Immovable.
    The timing is not movable based on the actions of men or the whim of God.

    That Jesus could have come "at any moment" in the past 2000 years is not Biblical. I reject the notion that God would teach people to believe something unbiblical. Such a belief is solely a human invention.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2021
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hya SOTW,

    Q) Who is the "YOU" in the above passage?
    A) The Apostles to whom Jesus was speaking.

    Q)Did they personally witness and experience these things?
    A) YES!

    Matt 24:9-10 -- Jesus foretells the persecution of the early church by the Jews and later by Nero, who falsely blamed the Christian sect for burning up to half of Rome. This persecution went on the entire AD 30-66 by the Jews, and Nero's persecution was precisely 3.5 years, from 64-68AD. It is essential to note that Matthew 24:9-13 is exactly parallel to Matthew 10:16-23, a passage which all scholars assign to a first-century fulfillment. Jesus predicts the civil wars of the Jews (Matt 24:10; 10:21), and the great Jewish civil war occurred in 66-69AD (Josephus; Wars, 2:17:1-10; 2:18:1-11; 4:6:2-3; 5:1:2-5; 5:6:1; 5:13:6; 6:2:1).

    Matt 24:11-13 -- Jesus teaches more on false prophets, emphasizing their key role in the delusion of the nation, as per 2 Thess 2:7-11 (see also: Antiquities, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). Josephus says false prophets were related to the messianic movement of the seditious Zealots, who promised a redemption for the Jewish rebels at the Temple but were met with total destruction at the hand of the Romans. In Matthew 24:13 Jesus holds out hope for the believers who might endure to the end. (Verses 24:12-13 are parallel to Matthew 10:21-22.)

    Matt 24:14 -- A key sign of the end of the Jewish age was the gospel's rapid proclamation to the whole world (Greek: "oikoumene" = "inhabited earth;" "Roman Empire" -- Strong's # 3625). This sign was rapidly fulfilled in the apostles' generation, especially through Paul's ministry (Col 1:23, Col 1:5-6, Romans 10:14-18, Romans 16:26, 1 Tim 3:16; Acts 13:47). The "whole world" spoken of in the Bible pertained to the extent of the Roman Empire (compare the geographic boundaries of the "whole world" in Matt 24:14 with that of the same "whole world" in Luke 2:1, Acts 11:28, Acts 2:5, Romans 1:8 and and 2 Chronicles 36:23). The use of the Greek word "oikoumene" (Strong's #3625) in Matt 24:14 speaks of the Roman Empire -- the "whole world" ("oikoumene") of the scriptures was contextually centered in the area of the Ancient Roman Empire (see: Luke 2:1). Early Church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Eusebius, and Chrysostom said Matthew 24:14 as fulfilled in the apostles' generation. The immediate and rapid spread of the Christian faith throughout the entire Empire signified a covenantal shift to a new dispensation wherein all nations participate equally in the blessing of Abraham through faith (Gen 12:1-3; Gal 3:6-9,14,29).

    Any interpretation that excludes them form direct application must be rejected.
     
  13. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Then it was not the Holy Spirit claiming soon.

    It was only the expectation of the author.

    God cannot tell us no one can know, and then declare it is soon.

    I pointed out that soon and 1000 years is the same definition. It is a known fixed point in time. Since we cannot know both soon and 1000 years, saying soon or 1000 years is not pointing to the when. Pointing to the when would contradict the point we cannot know.

    Those who expect soon are no different than those who expect it to happen in 1000 years.
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Then what did Jesus mean when He said:
    Matthew 24:33
    So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    ??

    Are you saying this passage is meaningless to the one who "sees all these things" when it comes to the timing?

    Are you saying this verse actually means:
    "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is still possibly thousands of years away, but you can go ahead and think it's soon if you want, or not, it makes no difference"

    Really??

    Most certainly God can say no one can know the exact day or hour, but they CAN know when it is "soon, near, at hand and about to take place, even at the doors"

    In fact, Jesus is saying EXACTLY THAT in the above passage. EXACTLY.

    I don't think you can pawn off Jesus' own spoken words above as merely "the expectation of the author" and not the God breathed Truth.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2021
  15. Berean Tim

    Berean Tim Well-Known Member

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    ....and yet many ECF's were waiting on the coming AC, tribulation and return of Jesus on the clouds
     
  16. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I don't think Pointing out the fact that Fallible ECF's were not writing inspired scripture supports your point the way you think it does..
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2021
  17. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The only sign of the return is this verse:

    "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

    Then Jesus mentions the fig tree.

    32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    What is near?

    All of the above from verse 5:

    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

    10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

    12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    The Second Coming is not the fig tree. What happens after the fig tree is soon.

    The fig tree is not even a sign of the Second Coming. It is a sign of all the events prior to.

    You have to define what the fig tree is, before defining soon. Then still not referring to the Second Coming.
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Then we have to define what "all the trees" are....
    Luke 21:29
    And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

    Wait... near how? thousands of years away near?
    Don't you assert that that near and thousands of years away are exactly the same thing? Or is it different, polar opposite actually, in this one verse somehow, than in all other verses ?

    The Fig tree budding - and all the trees budding is not a sign of anything except that summer is near. Like actually, literally near. Not thousands of years away.
    I have a fig tree in my backyard actually. When it starts putting forth it's leaves in spring, I know that summer is not a thousand years away....

    Soon how?
    Soon as in still thousands of years away "soon"?

    I honestly can't tell what you mean by soon... in one breath you seem to indicate it literally means soon, yet in the next you say soon and thousands of years are the same thing, interchangeable. Cannot be told apart.

    Which is it?
     
  19. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    So it is a literal fig tree, and not a sign at all?

    Then we have no signs pointing to a soon anything.

    The only thing soon is a literal summer. Each and every summer.
     
  20. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think there was a basis for telling people it COULD be soon and we can see that in this passage:

    2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    Peter implies here that the day of His coming is not known, which is exactly what Jesus Himself indicated in verses like Matthew 24:36 and Matthew 25:13. Peter clearly thought it could happen soon for all anyone knew because he told his first century audience to look for it and be ready for it. But, I believe he also hinted at the fact that it was quite possible that it still might take a long time (from the time he wrote the letter) for Him to come from the human perspective even though it wouldn't be long from God's perspective.

    The motivation for telling people it could happen soon (remember, only the Father knew the day and hour - Matt 24:36) can be seen in 2 Peter 3:11. Believing that Jesus could literally come soon should serve the purpose of motivating people to take part in "all holy conversation and godliness". If we feel He could come soon, it serves as motivation for us to be in a right relationship with Him when He comes and not be among those who get burned up by the fire that He will bring down upon the earth.
     
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