The Fall of Humanity

[RobertPate]

Catholics are trying to imitate Christ, not by the flesh but by the Spirit He gave to them, as we all should. We possess everything we need as as a free gift, but unless and until we embrace and act upon and live like it, unless we "invest" those "talents", we show we haven't yet taken full possesion, we aren't totally sold out to Him, to good over evil; we don't yet love perfectly despite anything we may profess. That's no more than simple, honest truth, which should never be overidden in a Christian by wishful thinking or pretense.

Trying to be like Jesus will not save you. That is something that you do. We are not saved by anything that we do. We are saved by what Jesus has done for us, HIS life, HIS death, HIS resurrection. We are accepted in him and because of him.

 

[RobertPate]

This is the "complete" Mr. Pate loves to promote but does not understand. I've laid it out for him in context from Colossians. His is a 'We have nothing to do' false gospel. But he periodically contradicts himself.

This was a classic Robert Pate thread at first: Erroneous Point > Correct Counterpoint > You're a Catholic!!!

Now it continues a classic Robert Pate thread. He'll ignore every piece of Scriptural backup provided that does not match his erroneous interpretation of Colossians 2:10.

"But to him that does NO WORKS but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) are counted for righteousness, Romans 4:5.

 

[fhansen]

Trying to be like Jesus will not save you. That is something that you do. We are not saved by anything that we do. We are saved by what Jesus has done for us, HIS life, HIS death, HIS resurrection. We are accepted in him and because of him.

Sorry, it’s a two-way street. God wants your participation in this good work of His, for your own good.

“Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.” 1 Cor 11:1

“Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” 1 Pet 1:13-16

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

No work of yours will make you just. But once justified by Him, it’s a team effort where you must take up your cross daily, and follow.

 

[RobertPate]

Sorry, it’s a two-way street. God wants your participation in this good work of His, for your own good.

“Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.” 1 Cor 11:1

“Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” 1 Pet 1:13-16

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

No work of yours will make you just. But once justified by Him, it’s a team effort where you must take up your cross daily, and follow.

The Gospel calls for a holy life, but your holy life is not going to save you. Jesus is the savior. You are trusting in yourself. Catholicism is the religion of "You Must".

 

[fhansen]

The Gospel calls for a holy life, but your holy life is not going to save you. Jesus is the savior. You are trusting in yourself. Catholicism is the religion of "You Must".

Sorry, the obligation to be righteous does not go away with the new covenant; it’s simply made possible now, the right way, the authentic way, by Christ, not on our own, so that we may live.
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:1

 

[RobertPate]

Sorry, the obligation to be righteous does not go away with the new covenant; it’s simply made possible now, the right way, the authentic way, by Christ, not on our own, so that we may live.
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:1

Catholics are famous for mixing sanctification (The Christians life) with justification (The Gospel). Christ work for us. They don't mix. Jesus has ALREADY reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. All that believe the Gospel are ALREADY complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. Nothing can ever change that.

All that believe this are sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13 and are "In Christ". Whatever comes out of the Christians life is of God, Ephesians 2:10.

 

[fhansen]

Catholics are famous for mixing sanctification (The Christians life) with justification (The Gospel). Christ work for us. They don't mix. Jesus has ALREADY reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. All that believe the Gospel are ALREADY complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. Nothing can ever change that.

All that believe this are sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13 and are "In Christ". Whatever comes out of the Christians life is of God, Ephesians 2:10.

No, the historic church along with the ECFs never separated justification from sanctification, as if they were two completely separate things, instead of one being the beginning point of the other. They both involve holiness given to us. The Reformers are famous for coming up with a novel idea which definitively separated the two,. The best Reformed theology at least involves understanding that personal righteousness/holiness is necessary in order to enter heaven but also in their case guaranteed for a believer. That misses the mark a bit but it's far better than antinomianism.

 

[RobertPate]

No, the historic church along with the ECFs never separated justification from sanctification, as if they were two completely separate things, instead of one being the beginning point of the other. They both involve holiness given to us. The Reformers are famous for coming up with a novel idea which definitively separated the two,. The best Reformed theology at least involves understanding that personal righteousness/holiness is necessary in order to enter heaven but also in their case guaranteed for a believer. That misses the mark a bit but it's far better than antinomianism.

Justification and sanctification are two entirely different things.

Justification is about what Jesus has done to justify us.

Sanctification is about our life "In Christ". It is heresy to confuse the two.

 

[fhansen]

Justification and sanctification are two entirely different things.

Justification is about what Jesus has done to justify us.

Sanctification is about our life "In Christ". It is heresy to confuse the two.

I wasn't going to say it but you're right it's heresy to confuse the two, by I understanding them as being unrelated. Probably not the worst heresy just ignorance. But like much of Reformed theology it only manages to confuse the issue of justification

 

[RobertPate]

I wasn't going to say it but you're right it's heresy to confuse the two, by I understanding them as being unrelated. Probably not the worst heresy just ignorance. But like much of Reformed theology it only manages to confuse the issue of justification

Justification comes ahead of sanctification. Nothing happens until we believe the Gospel, which is God's work for us in Jesus Christ. When we believe the Gospel, God spiritually places us "In Christ" and bestows upon us his Holy Spirit, we are sanctified (set aside) in Jesus Christ. God only sees us "In Christ". Our old life before we were saved has been crucified with Christ, Romans 6:6. Our new life, the sanctified life. means that we are now "New creations" in Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:17. This new life in Christ will produce good works and will be a witness for Christ and his Gospel, Ephesians 2:10. It is all of God.

 

[fhansen]

Justification comes ahead of sanctification. Nothing happens until we believe the Gospel, which is God's work for us in Jesus Christ. When we believe the Gospel, God spiritually places us "In Christ" and bestows upon us his Holy Spirit, we are sanctified (set aside) in Jesus Christ. God only sees us "In Christ". Our old life before we were saved has been crucified with Christ, Romans 6:6. Our new life, the sanctified life. means that we are now "New creations" in Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:17. This new life in Christ will produce good works and will be a witness for Christ and his Gospel, Ephesians 2:10. It is all of God.

This works alright if we understand what being set aside entails: no sanctification=no salvation.
"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:21-22

 

[RobertPate]

This works alright if we understand what being set aside entails: no sanctification=no salvation.
"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:21-22

Those that believe the Gospel are sanctified by the Holy Spirit. If nothing comes out of their new life "In Christ" they never did believe. They are counterfeits.

 

[sparow]

Adam was the representative of the human race. As Adam goes so go we.

"For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were MADE sinners" Romans 5:19.

We were MADE sinners. We did not become sinners. It is not our fault that we are sinners, its Adam's fault. We were born into sin. King David wrote, "Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" Psalm 51:5.

Many don't like the idea that we are born sinners, but this is what the Bible teaches. This is why we need to be born again, 1 Peter 1:23. This is also why we need a savior. Just as we were lost by a representative, so shall we be saved by a representative.

"So by the obedience of one (Christ) shall many be MADE righteous" Romans 5:19.

We do not become righteous; we are MADE righteous by the doing and the dying of Jesus. Jesus in our name and on our behalf fulfills all of the demands of God's Holy Law and justifies us, Romans 3:26.

"Therefore, as by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift came upon all men into justification of life" Romans 5:18.

Man does not have a righteousness that God will accept, we are saved by the righteousness of Christ. When we receive Christ as our savior the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. God sees us as righteous only "In Christ". However, we are still in these sinful, unredeemed, Adamic bodies, Romans 8:23.

Salvation is a free gift from God, the law has been fulfilled and all sin has been atoned for. This is why Paul said, "You are Complete in him" Colossians 2:10. When God accepted Jesus back into heaven, we were accepted in him.

For Psalm 51:5 you seem to be quoting the KJV which is supposed to be a word for word translation; “and in sin did my mother conceive me”, this is not in the original text; it seems to be saying David was illegitimate.

You seem to be suggesting Universalism; otherwise there is a difference between the saved and the Lost and the difference will be in what they do.

 

[RobertPate]

For Psalm 51:5 you seem to be quoting the KJV which is supposed to be a word for word translation; “and in sin did my mother conceive me”, this is not in the original text; it seems to be saying David was illegitimate.

You seem to be suggesting Universalism; otherwise there is a difference between the saved and the Lost and the difference will be in what they do.

The Gospel is universal because Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Which means that salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. The difference between the saved and the lost is decided by what they believe concerning Jesus Christ.

 

[Der Alte]

post deleted

 

[Der Alte]

In the early '50s when I first heard Billy Graham he explained "Justified" as Jesus made him "just as if I'd" never sinned. Three decades later I was privileged to hear him speak at my grad school.
"Sanctified" means "set apart." Billy Graham when he spoke at my grad school '82ish.

 

[RobertPate]

In the early '50s when I first heard Billy Graham he explained "Justified" as Jesus made him "just as if I'd" never sinned. Three decades later I was privileged to hear him speak at my grad school.
"Sanctified" means "set apart."

Billy was right.

 

[sparow]

The Gospel is universal because Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Which means that salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. The difference between the saved and the lost is decided by what they believe concerning Jesus Christ.

All I can do is disagree and add my view: If what you say was true you would have God breaking the covenant and the shedding of His son's blood a vanity or joke.

 

[RobertPate]

All I can do is disagree and add my view: If what you say was true you would have God breaking the covenant and the shedding of His son's blood a vanity or joke.

You have the right to disagree if you enjoy being wrong. Which covenant?