The Fall of Humanity

RobertPate

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Adam was the representative of the human race. As Adam goes so go we.

"For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were MADE sinners" Romans 5:19.

We were MADE sinners. We did not become sinners. It is not our fault that we are sinners, its Adam's fault. We were born into sin. King David wrote, "Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" Psalm 51:5.

Many don't like the idea that we are born sinners, but this is what the Bible teaches. This is why we need to be born again, 1 Peter 1:23. This is also why we need a savior. Just as we were lost by a representative, so shall we be saved by a representative.

"So by the obedience of one (Christ) shall many be MADE righteous" Romans 5:19.

We do not become righteous; we are MADE righteous by the doing and the dying of Jesus. Jesus in our name and on our behalf fulfills all of the demands of God's Holy Law and justifies us, Romans 3:26.

"Therefore, as by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift came upon all men into justification of life" Romans 5:18.

Man does not have a righteousness that God will accept, we are saved by the righteousness of Christ. When we receive Christ as our savior the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. God sees us as righteous only "In Christ". However, we are still in these sinful, unredeemed, Adamic bodies, Romans 8:23.

Salvation is a free gift from God, the law has been fulfilled and all sin has been atoned for. This is why Paul said, "You are Complete in him" Colossians 2:10. When God accepted Jesus back into heaven, we were accepted in him.
 

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Adam was the representative of the human race. As Adam goes so go we.

"For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were MADE sinners" Romans 5:19.

We were MADE sinners. We did not become sinners. It is not our fault that we are sinners, its Adam's fault. We were born into sin. King David wrote, "Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" Psalm 51:5.

Many don't like the idea that we are born sinners, but this is what the Bible teaches. This is why we need to be born again, 1 Peter 1:23. This is also why we need a savior. Just as we were lost by a representative, so shall we be saved by a representative.

"So by the obedience of one (Christ) shall many be MADE righteous" Romans 5:19.

We do not become righteous; we are MADE righteous by the doing and the dying of Jesus. Jesus in our name and on our behalf fulfills all of the demands of God's Holy Law and justifies us, Romans 3:26.

"Therefore, as by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift came upon all men into justification of life" Romans 5:18.

Man does not have a righteousness that God will accept, we are saved by the righteousness of Christ. When we receive Christ as our savior the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. God sees us as righteous only "In Christ". However, we are still in these sinful, unredeemed, Adamic bodies, Romans 8:23.

Salvation is a free gift from God, the law has been fulfilled and all sin has been atoned for. This is why Paul said, "You are Complete in him" Colossians 2:10. When God accepted Jesus back into heaven, we were accepted in him.
Adam wasn't our representative. Neither was Christ. I recently did a thread on this topic.
Federalism is False and isn't the Essence of Covenant Theology | Christian Forums
To summarize: representation and atonement are two completely different concepts. Unconvincingly, Reformed theology tries to conflate them into one thing.
 
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Petros2015

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Man does not have a righteousness that God will accept, we are saved by the righteousness of Christ. When we receive Christ as our savior the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. God sees us as righteous only "In Christ". However, we are still in these sinful, unredeemed, Adamic bodies, Romans 8:23.

Ok.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20 idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

What you are led by, there you will go.
 
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RobertPate

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Adam wasn't our representative. Neither was Christ. I recently did a thread on this topic.
Federalism is False and isn't the Essence of Covenant Theology | Christian Forums
To summarize: representation and atonement are two completely different concepts. Unconvincingly, Reformed theology tries to conflate them into one thing.
Just because you say that its false doesn't make it so. Where is your scripture? You have none. All that you have is your idea. If you are going to refute something you will have to make a case against it. You have nothing.
 
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RobertPate

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Ok.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20 idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

What you are led by, there you will go.
So, you believe that you can overcome your old Adamic nature by being led by the Spirit? That's a nice thought, but it is not going to work completely. Here is why, "For the flesh (Adam) lusts against the Spirit (Christ) and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would" Galatians 5:17.

The Christian life is a fight. You will have to fight with Adam until the day that you die.
 
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The Christian life is a fight. You will have to fight with Adam until the day that you die.

Slaughtered like lambs all the livelong day...but in Christ, more than conquerors.

He who snatched us from the fire and put a clean turban on our head.

For what can separate us from the love of God?
 
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JAL

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Just because you say that its false doesn't make it so. Where is your scripture? You have none. All that you have is your idea. If you are going to refute something you will have to make a case against it. You have nothing.
As you haven't addressed the objections raised on the other thread, obviously you're the one who has nothing.
 
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fhansen

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Adam was the representative of the human race. As Adam goes so go we.

"For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were MADE sinners" Romans 5:19.

We were MADE sinners. We did not become sinners. It is not our fault that we are sinners, its Adam's fault. We were born into sin. King David wrote, "Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" Psalm 51:5.

Many don't like the idea that we are born sinners, but this is what the Bible teaches. This is why we need to be born again, 1 Peter 1:23. This is also why we need a savior. Just as we were lost by a representative, so shall we be saved by a representative.

"So by the obedience of one (Christ) shall many be MADE righteous" Romans 5:19.

We do not become righteous; we are MADE righteous by the doing and the dying of Jesus. Jesus in our name and on our behalf fulfills all of the demands of God's Holy Law and justifies us, Romans 3:26.

"Therefore, as by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift came upon all men into justification of life" Romans 5:18.

Man does not have a righteousness that God will accept, we are saved by the righteousness of Christ. When we receive Christ as our savior the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. God sees us as righteous only "In Christ". However, we are still in these sinful, unredeemed, Adamic bodies, Romans 8:23.

Salvation is a free gift from God, the law has been fulfilled and all sin has been atoned for. This is why Paul said, "You are Complete in him" Colossians 2:10. When God accepted Jesus back into heaven, we were accepted in him.
Somehow you missed the obvious here. Through Adam man actually became sinners, unrighteous, personally. Through Jesus man actually becomes righteous, personally. He becomes who he was created to be, which can only occur in union with God, not apart from Him which is what Adam opted for.

We’re a branch grafted into the true vine and as we remain in Him and cooperate in His work we’re nourished and produce much fruit, growing in His likeness and towards our own telos or purpose. That’s salvation.

Man's "falleness", his injustice, consists of the very alienation or freedom from God that Adam chose. We're born without even the "knowledge of God", "free" from Him now. But man was made for communion with God and is lost, sick dead if apart from Him and chaos, disorder, sin are then guaranteed to reign in man and his world. That's why Jesus came, to reconcile man with God so that justice may be restored. This occurs as we come to know and, ultimately, to love Him. That's why faith is critical: it's to recognize and to accept and to make God our God again.
 
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RobertPate

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Somehow you missed the obvious here. Through Adam man actually became sinners, unrighteous, personally. Through Jesus man actually becomes righteous, personally. He becomes who he was created to be, which can only occur in union with God, not apart from Him which is what Adam opted for.

We’re a branch grafted into the true vine and as we remain in Him and cooperate in His work we’re nourished and produce much fruit, growing in His likeness and towards our own telos or purpose. That’s salvation.
Naaa, that is not salvation.

Salvation is what Jesus has done in our name and on our behalf. He justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles them unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

Paul never taught that we are personally righteous. Paul taught that we are sinners saved by the grace (goodness) of God, Romans 5:8.
 
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fhansen

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Naaa, that is not salvation.

Salvation is what Jesus has done in our name and on our behalf. He justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles them unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.
You don't know what all He's done, what justification means, that the problem. I'll quote myself:

Man's "falleness", his injustice, consists of the very alienation or freedom from God that Adam chose. We're born without even the "knowledge of God", "free" from Him now. But man was made for communion with God and is lost, sick dead if apart from Him and chaos, disorder, sin are then guaranteed to reign in man and his world. That's why Jesus came, to reconcile man with God so that justice may be restored. This occurs as we come to know and, ultimately, to love Him. That's why faith is critical: it's to recognize and to accept and to make God our God again.
Paul never taught that we are personally righteous. Paul taught that we are sinners saved by the grace (goodness) of God, Romans 5:8.
Nah, Paul taught this, and many other such things that you've likewise preferred to ignore over and over:
"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."
Rom 8:3-4, 8:12-13

 
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RobertPate

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You don't know what all He's done, what justification means, that the problem. I'll quote myself:

Man's "falleness", his injustice, consists of the very alienation or freedom from God that Adam chose. We're born without even the "knowledge of God", "free" from Him now. But man was made for communion with God and is lost, sick dead if apart from Him and chaos, disorder, sin are then guaranteed to reign in man and his world. That's why Jesus came, to reconcile man with God so that justice may be restored. This occurs as we come to know and, ultimately, to love Him. That's why faith is critical: it's to recognize and to accept and to make God our God again.

Nah, Paul taught this, and many other such things that you've likewise preferred to ignore over and over:
"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."
Rom 8:3-4, 8:12-13
Catholicism is a holiness religion. Holiness religions believe that they can be saved and justified by what they do, their works, their obedience, their piety. It is a very subjective religion because it is all about you, who is a sinner.

The Gospel is not about us. The Gospel is about Jesus Christ, His life, His death, His resurrection. All that Jesus is, and all that Jesus has done is for our salvation and our justification. We are saved, justified, sanctified and redeemed by the doing and the dying of Jesus, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

To walk and live by the Spirit is to walk and live in the Gospel. In the Gospel, Jesus in our name and on our behalf, has defeated sin, death and the devil and in doing so has reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. Paul said that we are complete in him. Colossians 2:10.
 
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fhansen

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Catholicism is a holiness religion. Holiness religions believe that they can be saved and justified by what they do, their works, their obedience, their piety. It is a very subjective religion because it is all about you, who is a sinner.

The Gospel is not about us. The Gospel is about Jesus Christ, His life, His death, His resurrection. All that Jesus is, and all that Jesus has done is for our salvation and our justification. We are saved, justified, sanctified and redeemed by the doing and the dying of Jesus, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

To walk and live by the Spirit is to walk and live in the Gospel. In the Gospel, Jesus in our name and on our behalf, has defeated sin, death and the devil and in doing so has reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. Paul said that we are complete in him. Colossians 2:10.
Well, you succeeded in ignoring my post at least.
 
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fhansen

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I didn't ignore your post, I answered it. You didn't like the answer.
No, you diverted the matter, turning it into a Catholic versus your version of the gospel thing when you were simply presented with truth, that you didn't like, and didn't address.
 
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fhansen

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The Gospel calls your Catholic doctrine into question.
Only a false gospel.might do so. But at the end of the day it's a matter of every person's opinion- as to what constitutes the true gospel, the truth, whether it's mine, yours, or a church's. And Scripture, private interpretations of it, causes more division on that particular matter than any other source.
 
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RobertPate

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Only a false gospel.might do so. But at the end of the day it's a matter of every person's opinion- as to what constitutes the true gospel, the truth, whether it's mine, yours, or a church's. And Scripture, private interpretations of it, causes more division on that particular matter than any other source.
The Bible makes it very clear what the Gospel is.

The Gospel is the work that Jesus did in our name and on our behalf that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

In the Gospel we are ALREADY complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. No laws, rules or religion needed.

Catholics are trying to do in their flesh, what God has ALREADY done in Jesus Christ.
 
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fhansen

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The Bible makes it very clear what the Gospel is.

The Gospel is the work that Jesus did in our name and on our behalf that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

In the Gospel we are ALREADY complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. No laws, rules or religion needed.

Catholics are trying to do in their flesh, what God has ALREADY done in Jesus Christ.
Catholics are trying to imitate Christ, not by the flesh but by the Spirit He gave to them, as we all should. We possess everything we need as as a free gift, but unless and until we embrace and act upon and live like it, unless we "invest" those "talents", we show we haven't yet taken full possesion, we aren't totally sold out to Him, to good over evil; we don't yet love perfectly despite anything we may profess. That's no more than simple, honest truth, which should never be overidden in a Christian by wishful thinking or pretense.
 
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We possess everything we need as as a free gift

This is the "complete" Mr. Pate loves to promote but does not understand. I've laid it out for him in context from Colossians. His is a 'We have nothing to do' false gospel. But he periodically contradicts himself.

This was a classic Robert Pate thread at first: Erroneous Point > Correct Counterpoint > You're a Catholic!!!

Now it continues a classic Robert Pate thread. He'll ignore every piece of Scriptural backup provided that does not match his erroneous interpretation of Colossians 2:10.
 
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